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AndyBG
January 26th, 2008, 03:40
Audi S5 takes on BMW 335 i coupe and Infinity G37...

''...The S5 is the glutton. It’s just barely larger, but it feels big. Its interior not only beats the Infiniti and the 3-series handily, it gives BMW’s larger and significantly more expensive 6-series a run for its money...''

Full test... :

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publish/Features/article_3709.shtml

alpha6164
January 26th, 2008, 20:53
Thats not a very favorable review of the S5 performance wise. With ~50 more hp and the "S" series going against a non-M BMW still lost in acceleration and handling categories.

Kliko61
January 26th, 2008, 21:22
I don't know about the difference between the S5 and the 335i, maybe Leadfoot can tell us more about this, but what I want to say is that I would take the S5 anyday :D:D. The interior is just great!!!

It's just a wonderful car. Maybe in the future it will perform better in handling and acceleration with a biturboed motor??

alpha6164
January 26th, 2008, 21:27
I don't know about the difference between the S5 and the 335i, maybe Leadfoot can tell us more about this, but what I want to say is that I would take the S5 anyday :D:D. The interior is just great!!!

It's just a wonderful car. Maybe in the future it will perform better in handling and acceleration with a biturboed motor??


I definitely like the S5's interior better, but i am not sure if would the S5 "anyday." Everybody has different priorities. But to me a performance car such as the S5 should handle better. The same goes for the S4. I saw the german review where they compared the S4 to the R8, and although the same engine, the handling characteristics were completely different. I think the S4/S5 with their engine mounted so forward hinders their handling. I am not sure why a 350hp V8 is slower than a 300hp I6 twin turbo?

KresoF1
January 26th, 2008, 21:36
Well...
In latest issue of Auto Bild Sportscar Edition S5 won with ease over 335i(with M Package and 19" wheels) and CLK 500. S5 and 335i were manual versions.

Overall Auto Bild Sportscar Edition stuff feels that S5 is clearly a better car then 335i...

Rage
January 26th, 2008, 23:54
Thats a little dissapointing. I test drove a 335i last summer and was underwhelmed by the performance. Since then I have been waiting for the M3 or S5/RS5.

If the S5 cant deliver then im only considering the RS5 or M3 (+DCT).

raulg
January 27th, 2008, 00:23
I definitely like the S5's interior better, but i am not sure if would the S5 "anyday." Everybody has different priorities. But to me a performance car such as the S5 should handle better. The same goes for the S4. I saw the german review where they compared the S4 to the R8, and although the same engine, the handling characteristics were completely different. I think the S4/S5 with their engine mounted so forward hinders their handling. I am not sure why a 350hp V8 is slower than a 300hp I6 twin turbo?

In many other 1/4m tests the S5 gets much better times than in this test. Anyway, the difference between the S5 and 335i is no big at all, considering just this test. S5 is more like a cruiser, not a sharp turner. Snap on it a stiffer suspension, nothing really stiif, just something similar to the 335i suspension, and you'll see the car looks 10x better (lowered, just as much as the bimmer, not stupid much) and will also handle a lot better. Audi just uses SUV suspension in US cars, I am not sure why. Maybe cause the streets here are so bad, and we have to go of road a lot. Just compare a stock 3-series with a stock S4/S5, you'll see the bimmer sitting much lower. A little stiffer, but much better in turns.
But, a 335i with a chip will eat our S5 alive, no comments whatsoever. Against that we need an RS5 :)

AndyBG
January 27th, 2008, 02:21
... The same goes for the S4. I saw the german review where they compared the S4 to the R8, and although the same engine...

Audi B7 S4 and Audi R8 don't have the same engine..., Audi B7 RS 4 and Audi R8 have similar engines (4.2l, 420 hp)

Leadfoot
January 27th, 2008, 10:58
Where to start with what makes the S5 and 335i different. :vhmmm:

Well for a start interior design in the Audi is in a totally different class, it makes you (the driver) feel special before you have even turned the key or should I say pressed the key into the dash.:D It's seats are brilliant as always, the MMI is better and the steering wheel has a nicer feel to it. The 335i is still a good place to be but unlike the M3 there is nothing else which is that special to say 'hey, OK the interior is average but the engine and chassis makes up for it', the engine on start-up is like any other BMW inline 6 which means it's pleasant unlike the S5 which has a note to compete with an AMG but only briefly, it's steering wheel is too thick and I know the M3's one is thicker but the leather is different and that makes a world of difference.

Now the actual experience of driving the two cars, firstly the 335i, it's a brilliant engine and pulls from very low down but to me the engine note is too civilised for it's own good but in it's defence it will pull all the way to the limit, it's steering is better mainly because it isn't as light but it wouldn't be anymore accurate than the S5. Turn in isn't as good which surprised me but then when you consider the extra width of track that the S5 has you see why it's better. Finally the brakes, sorry BMW but on this occasion the Audi brakes are much better and definitely stop quicker.

Now to the S5, as I have said 'what an engine note', it's a real head turner even when they haven't noticed the looks and when you do happen to open it up it just makes you feel much better and more special. The steering in the 335i is better but I think this is down to not being used to the lightness of touch but it is in touch with the surface and you can feel the transfer of grip from one axle to the other which I never felt the same in the old S4 so the chassis is making a difference and as I have already reported this is the first S model which does get pretty close to the feel the RS4 give in a corner with all of the confidence that goes with it. The brakes are impressive and on road work at least seem resistant to fade. Also the ride in the S5 though slightly firmer than the 335i (S/E model) it feels better for traveling quickly and this time round isn't at all bouncy which I dislike about the old S4.

As for performance, well as I didn't drive the cars back to back I can't comment on which is the quicker, I reckon the nod would have to go to the S5 but this may be down to the rest of the experience, the noise etc, but going by what most of the reviews are saying is that the S5 is about a 0.5~0.75s quicker to 100mph which would be equal to 2~3 car lengths. I will say that when in a higher gear I reckon the 335i pulls the harder or at least seems too.

Did I make the right choice.......................YOUR BLOODY RIGHT I DID.

alpha6164
January 27th, 2008, 15:21
Where to start with what makes the S5 and 335i different. :vhmmm:

Well for a start interior design in the Audi is in a totally different class, it makes you (the driver) feel special before you have even turned the key or should I say pressed the key into the dash.:D It's seats are brilliant as always, the MMI is better and the steering wheel has a nicer feel to it. The 335i is still a good place to be but unlike the M3 there is nothing else which is that special to say 'hey, OK the interior is average but the engine and chassis makes up for it', the engine on start-up is like any other BMW inline 6 which means it's pleasant unlike the S5 which has a note to compete with an AMG but only briefly, it's steering wheel is too thick and I know the M3's one is thicker but the leather is different and that makes a world of difference.

Now the actual experience of driving the two cars, firstly the 335i, it's a brilliant engine and pulls from very low down but to me the engine note is too civilised for it's own good but in it's defence it will pull all the way to the limit, it's steering is better mainly because it isn't as light but it wouldn't be anymore accurate than the S5. Turn in isn't as good which surprised me but then when you consider the extra width of track that the S5 has you see why it's better. Finally the brakes, sorry BMW but on this occasion the Audi brakes are much better and definitely stop quicker.

Now to the S5, as I have said 'what an engine note', it's a real head turner even when they haven't noticed the looks and when you do happen to open it up it just makes you feel much better and more special. The steering in the 335i is better but I think this is down to not being used to the lightness of touch but it is in touch with the surface and you can feel the transfer of grip from one axle to the other which I never felt the same in the old S4 so the chassis is making a difference and as I have already reported this is the first S model which does get pretty close to the feel the RS4 give in a corner with all of the confidence that goes with it. The brakes are impressive and on road work at least seem resistant to fade. Also the ride in the S5 though slightly firmer than the 335i (S/E model) it feels better for traveling quickly and this time round isn't at all bouncy which I dislike about the old S4.

As for performance, well as I didn't drive the cars back to back I can't comment on which is the quicker, I reckon the nod would have to go to the S5 but this may be down to the rest of the experience, the noise etc, but going by what most of the reviews are saying is that the S5 is about a 0.5~0.75s quicker to 100mph which would be equal to 2~3 car lengths. I will say that when in a higher gear I reckon the 335i pulls the harder or at least seems too.

Did I make the right choice.......................YOUR BLOODY RIGHT I DID.



Great points. I do like someone with 2cents that can have at least as minimal of a bias as possible. I can tell you with all the cars I own, i am the first one to point out their flaws against competition.

The S5s interior is much nicer compared to the 335. But to be also fair we are comparing the "S" series to a non-M series. I think a better comparison would be the S5 to the M3s interior as you mentioned and the differences become more slim and more individual prefference.

BMW does make the cars very mute. My best friend who has the M6 hates the uber quiet exhaust. I got a Hamman quad exhaust for my 540i and wow!

AndyBG
January 27th, 2008, 18:00
But to be also fair we are comparing the "S" series to a non-M series. I think a better comparison would be the S5 to the M3s interior as you mentioned and the differences become more slim and more individual prefference.

Audi S5 is direct competitor to the BMW 335 i coupe. Audis RS division is counterpart of BMWs M division, or Merc's AMG, not ''S'' cars... So, for now, we can compare S5 and 335 i coupe, and in the future Audi RS 5 will be going up against BMW M3 coupe.

Leadfoot
January 29th, 2008, 11:49
On the subject of the S5 and it's engine note, does anyone else know if it's normal for the engine to cap it's revs to only 4000rpm when stationary. Mine does it and was wondering if mine is different than any others out there.

Also a nice feature is that when you have the handbrake on but not your seat belt the car won't automatically release like it does when you do have it on, it's a nice safety touch.

HKS786
January 29th, 2008, 13:34
Audi S5 is direct competitor to the BMW 335 i coupe. Audis RS division is counterpart of BMWs M division, or Merc's AMG, not ''S'' cars... So, for now, we can compare S5 and 335 i coupe, and in the future Audi RS 5 will be going up against BMW M3 coupe.

+1

The most you could do is compare an Msport 335i to the S5, but def not the M3. I really love the Msport 335i but the S5 wins hands down!

AndyBG
January 29th, 2008, 13:51
On the subject of the S5 and it's engine note, does anyone else know if it's normal for the engine to cap it's revs to only 4000rpm when stationary. Mine does it and was wondering if mine is different than any others out there.

If I understand you correctly, you can't rev your car above 4000 rpm when you are standing...

...same thing has Cayenne, I don't know what's that for, but you can't rev it above.

JavierNuvolari
January 29th, 2008, 14:46
MMmm..perhaps the engine has not broken in yet?:vhmmm:

alpha6164
January 29th, 2008, 14:57
Audi B7 S4 and Audi R8 don't have the same engine..., Audi B7 RS 4 and Audi R8 have similar engines (4.2l, 420 hp)


Would you care to expand on how they have different engines. They are both 4.2l 420Hp FSI. They might have different cams to give them different powerbands, but the engines are pretty much the same and should weight the same as well.

AndyBG
January 29th, 2008, 16:13
Would you care to expand on how they have different engines. They are both 4.2l 420Hp FSI. They might have different cams to give them different powerbands, but the engines are pretty much the same and should weight the same as well.

In that reply of mine, I was correcting you when you said that S4 and R8 have same engine. Those two engine are very much diferent, besides having the same dissplacement (4.2l)

When it comes to RS 4 and R8 engine, yes, they are very much same, but not completly..., there are some diferences.

Ti-Mike was saying something about that few months ago... He owns the R8.

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?p=108615#post108615

:cheers:

alpha6164
January 29th, 2008, 16:43
In that reply of mine, I was correcting you when you said that S4 and R8 have same engine. Those two engine are very much diferent, besides having the same dissplacement (4.2l)

When it comes to RS 4 and R8 engine, yes, they are very much same, but not completly..., there are some diferences.

Ti-Mike was saying something about that few months ago... He owns the R8.

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?p=108615#post108615

:cheers:


Please dont take what i am saying offensive. First you say "...those two engines are very much different" then you say "...they are very much same..." I did look into the link you provided and just because the airbox/intake or having an extra throttle body does not make it a different engine.

Technically when we say "engine", we are talking about bottom end, piston size, bore, stroke, rods, crank, head, valves, cams, etc. Those are all identical in those two cars and that makes them having the same engine. Just because one revs 200rpm more does not mean anything. Those are all ECU related, not because one engine cant handle the higher RPM limit. :cheers:

MPT
January 29th, 2008, 20:16
Please dont take what i am saying offensive. First you say "...those two engines are very much different" then you say "...they are very much same..." I did look into the link you provided and just because the airbox/intake or having an extra throttle body does not make it a different engine.

Technically when we say "engine", we are talking about bottom end, piston size, bore, stroke, rods, crank, head, valves, cams, etc. Those are all identical in those two cars and that makes them having the same engine. Just because one revs 200rpm more does not mean anything. Those are all ECU related, not because one engine cant handle the higher RPM limit. :cheers:

You said B7 S4 and R8 has the same engine. THAT is what AndyBG corrected. And he's right. They are sooo far apart from each other.

Regarding RS 4 vs. R8, another big difference is, that the R8 has a dry sump oil system. The R8 also seem to put out a bit more power, at the wheels, but i don't know if that is thanks to the new quattro system.

Carl Lassiter
January 29th, 2008, 23:47
Where to start with what makes the S5 and 335i different. :vhmmm:

Well for a start interior design in the Audi is in a totally different class, it makes you (the driver) feel special before you have even turned the key or should I say pressed the key into the dash.:D It's seats are brilliant as always, the MMI is better and the steering wheel has a nicer feel to it. The 335i is still a good place to be but unlike the M3 there is nothing else which is that special to say 'hey, OK the interior is average but the engine and chassis makes up for it', the engine on start-up is like any other BMW inline 6 which means it's pleasant unlike the S5 which has a note to compete with an AMG but only briefly, it's steering wheel is too thick and I know the M3's one is thicker but the leather is different and that makes a world of difference.

Now the actual experience of driving the two cars, firstly the 335i, it's a brilliant engine and pulls from very low down but to me the engine note is too civilised for it's own good but in it's defence it will pull all the way to the limit, it's steering is better mainly because it isn't as light but it wouldn't be anymore accurate than the S5. Turn in isn't as good which surprised me but then when you consider the extra width of track that the S5 has you see why it's better. Finally the brakes, sorry BMW but on this occasion the Audi brakes are much better and definitely stop quicker.

Now to the S5, as I have said 'what an engine note', it's a real head turner even when they haven't noticed the looks and when you do happen to open it up it just makes you feel much better and more special. The steering in the 335i is better but I think this is down to not being used to the lightness of touch but it is in touch with the surface and you can feel the transfer of grip from one axle to the other which I never felt the same in the old S4 so the chassis is making a difference and as I have already reported this is the first S model which does get pretty close to the feel the RS4 give in a corner with all of the confidence that goes with it. The brakes are impressive and on road work at least seem resistant to fade. Also the ride in the S5 though slightly firmer than the 335i (S/E model) it feels better for traveling quickly and this time round isn't at all bouncy which I dislike about the old S4.

As for performance, well as I didn't drive the cars back to back I can't comment on which is the quicker, I reckon the nod would have to go to the S5 but this may be down to the rest of the experience, the noise etc, but going by what most of the reviews are saying is that the S5 is about a 0.5~0.75s quicker to 100mph which would be equal to 2~3 car lengths. I will say that when in a higher gear I reckon the 335i pulls the harder or at least seems too.

Did I make the right choice.......................YOUR BLOODY RIGHT I DID.

Great write up and makes a lot of sense. The noise of my S4 was superb and it was just a shame it didn't go as fast as it sounded though I'd likely no longer have my license! Ride and brakes were another matter so glad that's been sorted. No point having AWD if half the wheels have bounced clear of the tarmac.

raulg
January 30th, 2008, 01:34
On the subject of the S5 and it's engine note, does anyone else know if it's normal for the engine to cap it's revs to only 4000rpm when stationary. Mine does it and was wondering if mine is different than any others out there.

Also a nice feature is that when you have the handbrake on but not your seat belt the car won't automatically release like it does when you do have it on, it's a nice safety touch.

MB does the same in their new cars. Also, the current A6 and Q7 both only let u lift the rpm up to 4000 when stationary. It's just a simple way to protect the car against too much abuse. Honestly, 3-4000 rpm gives the best launch possible, nobody needs more.

Congrats on your brand new car, I didn't say it before, although I read your thread. I am really glad u like it that much.

Carl Lassiter
January 30th, 2008, 02:19
MB does the same in their new cars. Also, the current A6 and Q7 both only let u lift the rpm up to 4000 when stationary. It's just a simple way to protect the car against too much abuse. Honestly, 3-4000 rpm gives the best launch possible, nobody needs more.
.

The S4 could rev to the high heavens when in neutral (though not a good idea) but was restricted when brake torquing in first.

alpha6164
January 30th, 2008, 03:09
You said B7 S4 and R8 has the same engine. THAT is what AndyBG corrected. And he's right. They are sooo far apart from each other.

Regarding RS 4 vs. R8, another big difference is, that the R8 has a dry sump oil system. The R8 also seem to put out a bit more power, at the wheels, but i don't know if that is thanks to the new quattro system.

Sorry but I dont want to beat a dead horse. Again nobody has mentioned one proof that the engines are "so different." Having a different lubrication system does not mean that the ENGINES are different. Until someone can provide some basic information that engine ie. block, head, pistons, rods, cams, CR are different it is what it is:)

AndyBG
January 30th, 2008, 03:10
Please dont take what i am saying offensive. First you say "...those two engines are very much different" then you say "...they are very much same..." I did look into the link you provided and just because the airbox/intake or having an extra throttle body does not make it a different engine.

Technically when we say "engine", we are talking about bottom end, piston size, bore, stroke, rods, crank, head, valves, cams, etc. Those are all identical in those two cars and that makes them having the same engine. Just because one revs 200rpm more does not mean anything. Those are all ECU related, not because one engine cant handle the higher RPM limit. :cheers:

Of course that I'm not taking this all offensive, this is disscusion, after alll... :D

I never said that RS 4 engine and R8 engine are ''very different, I was saying that for S4 engine. As you know, Audi S4 and Audi RS 4 are different cars. I'm trying to correct you in your statement about S4 and R8.


You said B7 S4 and R8 has the same engine. THAT is what AndyBG corrected. And he's right. They are sooo far apart from each other.

Regarding RS 4 vs. R8, another big difference is, that the R8 has a dry sump oil system. The R8 also seem to put out a bit more power, at the wheels, but i don't know if that is thanks to the new quattro system.

RS 4 and R8 have simmilar, but as you can see from the ^^^ post up ^^^, not totally same engine...

:cheers:

Ti-Mike
January 30th, 2008, 09:20
the R8 has a completly different air intake and distribution system, which always has been the weak spot on the RS4 V8. The RS4 V8 engine's big lack of power came because of the massive lack of air.
They have solves the problem on the R8 by changing the airintake as well as putting 2 Throttle valves and a complet different distribution of the air on top of the engine.
As well as the electronic of the FSI are not the same.

alpha6164
January 30th, 2008, 15:27
the R8 has a completly different air intake and distribution system, which always has been the weak spot on the RS4 V8. The RS4 V8 engine's big lack of power came because of the massive lack of air.
They have solves the problem on the R8 by changing the airintake as well as putting 2 Throttle valves and a complet different distribution of the air on top of the engine.
As well as the electronic of the FSI are not the same.


I understand. But nothing you have mentioned above is part of the engine. Why does everybody keep repeating the same thing over and over? Having a different air intake design, or electronics does not make it a DIFFERENT ENGINE.

3abdo
January 30th, 2008, 16:48
i have to say that the S5 is way more beautiful than the other two, and with this exhaust note and interior, i am pretty sure that if you have the 3 keys in your hand you would still jump in the s5.

Why does everybody keep repeating the same thing over and over? Having a different air intake design, or electronics does not make it a DIFFERENT ENGINE.
the engine is exactly the same if that makes you happy and would make you stop giving shit to anyone trying to explain the difference for you

alpha6164
January 30th, 2008, 16:52
i have to say that the S5 is way more beautiful than the other two, and with this exhaust note and interior, i am pretty sure that if you have the 3 keys in your hand you would still jump in the s5.

the engine is exactly the same if that makes you happy and would make you stop giving shit to anyone trying to explain the difference for you


First, check the attitude. I definitely agree with you that the S5 is a nicer looking car, not doubt about it. I am not giving shit to anybody. I just dont like misinformation being spread like its the gospel It just bothers me when people are stating that it has a different ENGINE and they are supporting that statement by mentioning items that are not part of the engine. Period.

AndyBG
January 30th, 2008, 17:16
Audi RS 4 and Audi R8, very similar but not same engines... !

Audi S4 and Audi R8, VERY different engines... !

I don't know are you getting my point. I started all this 'couse you said that S4 have the same engine as R8, and that is totally incorrect...

Here are some links to Audi.de, you can see the two different cars, S4 (4.2l, 344 hp) and RS 4 (4.2l, 420 hp)...

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwagen/a4.html

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwagen/a4/s4.html

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwagen/a4/rs4.html

Here are some pic's..., first two S4, second two RS 4...

:cheers:

alpha6164
January 30th, 2008, 17:25
Audi RS 4 and Audi R8, very similar but not same engines... !

Audi S4 and Audi R8, VERY different engines... !

I don't know are you getting my point. I started all this 'couse you said that S4 have the same engine as R8, and that is totally incorrect...

Here are some links to Audi.de, you can see the two different cars, S4 (4.2l, 344 hp) and RS 4 (4.2l, 420 hp)...

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwagen/a4.html

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwagen/a4/s4.html

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwagen/a4/rs4.html

Here are some pic's..., first two S4, second two RS 4...

:cheers:

That was my bad. But there would be no reason for me to compare S4 to R8. Of course they are different engines. I was talking about the RS4 and the R8. The discussion was about how since the RS4 and the R8 have the same engines, their handling characteristics is completely different because of engine placement.

But other people have come afterwards and continue to mention how the RS4 and R8 are different cause they have a different air intake, dry sump etc which has nothing to do with the ENGINE. :cheers:

Ti-Mike
January 30th, 2008, 17:37
different compession rate, pistons, cam shaft as well as the intake vavles are differnt, crank is 700gram lighter................and and and

alpha6164
January 30th, 2008, 17:39
different compession rate, pistons, cam shaft as well as the intake vavles are differnt, crank is 700gram lighter................and and and

Now you are talking my language:hihi: Do you have any links or information that can desribes the differences in more detail?

Ti-Mike
January 30th, 2008, 17:42
Now you are talking my language:hihi: Do you have any links or information that can desribes the differences in more detail?

no i just have asked one of the mechanics, at Audi Motorsport.

MPT
January 30th, 2008, 17:42
block, head, pistons, rods, cams, CR are different it is what it is:)

This is just YOUR diffenition of a new engine. IMO the R8 V8 is a new engine (even though that's not what started this argument, it was S4 vs R8).

If a turbo-engine, gets new turbo, intercooters, intake-system, ekshaustsystem, ECU etc. wouldn't it be a new engine?

Then 1980's 1.8 would be the same as today's 1.8T?

alpha6164
January 30th, 2008, 17:55
If a turbo-engine, gets new turbo, intercooters, intake-system, ekshaustsystem, ECU etc. wouldn't it be a new engine?

Then 1980's 1.8 would be the same as today's 1.8T?


The answer is no. If the 1980s 1.8 has the same block, head, piston, rods, CR, cams etc as todays 1.8T then yes they have the same engine but with newer accessories.

Do you even know what the definition of an engine in a 4stroke car is? This is not my definition of the engine. Its whats widely accepeted. When the word ENGINE is used its the replacement term for the "long block." The long block is made up of the short block (bottom end) and the head. The short block (bottom end) includes your block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons and rings. Your head includes your bare head along with valves, valve springs, locks, cams, shims etc.

So going by that, having a new turbo, intercooler, airintake, throttle body, fuel injection, does not make a new engine. Just because its under the hood does not make it the ENGINE. If thats what you call the engine (anything thats under the hood) then i cant help you. Hope that helps.

AndyBG
January 31st, 2008, 02:51
That was my bad. But there would be no reason for me to compare S4 to R8. Of course they are different engines. I was talking about the RS4 and the R8. The discussion was about how since the RS4 and the R8 have the same engines, their handling characteristics is completely different because of engine placement.

But other people have come afterwards and continue to mention how the RS4 and R8 are different cause they have a different air intake, dry sump etc which has nothing to do with the ENGINE. :cheers:

I'm glad we resolved that !

:cheers: