PDC vs. TQ??? [Archive] - RS6.com | International Community

tvrfan

January 16th, 2008, 16:22

wich is better? Torque Vectoring from audi or DCP (similiar to TQ) from BMW? for my taste audi takes to long time to bring TQ out in their cars. for my wish, new RS6 should have it, S5 should have it, new A4, new B8 S4 and R8. ( many models too) for S and RS models, it should be standart too, for normal range an option. but audi takes to much time :noshake: . BMW is putting DCP on nearly all cars (3er - 7er series and X3 - X6).

Leadfoot

January 16th, 2008, 17:05

I am not 100% sure on this but I think you are wrong in saying every BMW will be receiving this soon, to the best of my knowledge only the X6 is getting for now and then will be rolled out to the rest of the X-drive cars later on.

Which is better, don't know as neither have been independently tested against each other, I reckon both systems will be pretty similar in concept with only minor differences in the way they behave.

Regarding which Audis will receive TQ, first will be S4 and Q5, S5 soon after and I believe will be either standard on S & RS models but definitely standard on RS models for sure.

tvrfan

January 16th, 2008, 19:00

new RS6 would be a dream with TQ. the monster pig :) needs it badly ^^

artur777

January 16th, 2008, 19:51

a 2-tonn car without TQ - not that good

Leadfoot

January 16th, 2008, 20:17

Why not wait until the RS6 is tested for real and just see what the motoring press make of it.

Truth me, if it was crap the TQ would do little to improve matters.

P.S.

It won't be crap by the way.

KresoF1

January 16th, 2008, 20:28

Why not wait until the RS6 is tested for real and just see what the motoring press make of it.

Truth me, if it was crap the TQ would do little to improve matters.

P.S.

It won't be crap by the way.

Fully agree with you.

And why is weight related with TQ? Some people really need to understand physic little bit more...

artur777

January 17th, 2008, 02:44

Fully agree with you.

And why is weight related with TQ? Some people really need to understand physic little bit more...

This is addressed to me!
Please explain your point ;-)
To my mind, the more weight - the more difficult to handle
And TQ makes it easier;-)

KresoF1

January 17th, 2008, 07:29

Leadfoot

January 17th, 2008, 11:20

Suspension(DRC) will handle the weight, NOT power delivery system(AWD). So, handling and dynamic capabilities of RS6 will more depend on suspension(DRC) tuning and layout then on AWD system setup.

Suspension is the key to how a car behaves on the road and under the load of cornering, DRCIII is even more advanced than the system currently in the RS4 and we all know how much it improved it's handling, I don't have the weight balance figures for the RS6 but I reckon it won't be any better than the RS4's so one should expect as similar result even with the extra weight involved.

This is not only my opinion but, point came from S.Reil in one interview about new RS6 as well.

Funny I was told something very similar to this regarding the R8 TDi......... :vhmmm: I wonder who it was told be that now. :hahahehe:

KresoF1

January 17th, 2008, 11:35

Hey Leadie,

I am glad that we fully agree on this subject!:cheers: :thumb: :addict:

Leadfoot

January 17th, 2008, 11:55

Yeah, if the Cold War is over then surely even we can settle our differences. :D :cheers:

P.S.

Autocar are estimated that the R8 TDi will retail at £83K, this would be great it true though I doubt it will be this cheap.

artur777

January 17th, 2008, 12:37

Suspension(DRC) will handle the weight, NOT power delivery system(AWD). So, handling and dynamic capabilities of RS6 will more depend on suspension(DRC) tuning and layout then on AWD system setup. This is not only my opinion but, point came from S.Reil in one interview about new RS6 as well...

I see your point.
Agree in full.
Thanks.

artur777

January 17th, 2008, 12:39

Suspension is the key to how a car behaves on the road and under the load of cornering, DRCIII is even more advanced than the system currently in the RS4 and we all know how much it improved it's handling, I don't have the weight balance figures for the RS6 but I reckon it won't be any better than the RS4's so one should expect as similar result even with the extra weight involved.

Funny I was told something very similar to this regarding the R8 TDi......... :vhmmm: I wonder who it was told be that now. :hahahehe:

Leadfoot, RS4 handles very well. If new RS6 handles in the same way - it will be an engineering miracle! My experience of habdlint 2-tonn cars was dissapointing.
Though I hope that it will be so.
But why did motor press appraise M3 better than Rs4 in the terms of handling if DRC is that great?

And also - where is it possible to find this interview about RS6. Very interesting.

Marv

January 17th, 2008, 12:59

Does anyone think there is danger that Audi could add TQ to RS6 say for 2009 model year. If so, those who buy in 2008 (maybe me) would be left with a lame duck and falling residual value

KresoF1

January 17th, 2008, 13:01

RS6 will be as it is till end of its production. This is always the case with RS models...

Leadfoot

January 17th, 2008, 13:36

But why did motor press appraise M3 better than Rs4 in the terms of handling if DRC is that great?

artur777,

For starters the RS4 has a 60/40% weight bias to the front, if you have ever driven a S4 (I owned one) compared to a RS4 you will understand just how amazing this DRC system is. But the reason why the M3 is a little better is that it has a electronic damper system which though different to Audi's it is also amazing plus unlike the RS4 it's weight bias is more central.

The RS6 will out perform the M5 because unlike the M3 it's weight bias is almost 5% more to the front and it doesn't has the advantage of awd to balance to the power to the wheels which will benefit the grip. The RS6 will be pretty impressive and I believe you will see this in it's ring lap time.

Rutkowsky

January 17th, 2008, 15:21

But since DRC2 is that good, why RS4 understeers so much? Quattro can't help it and neither DRC2 can

tvrfan

January 17th, 2008, 16:16

Is that right?

" Audi Drive Select with Dynamic Steering is the sportdiff. (Torque Vectoring)????

Leadfoot

January 17th, 2008, 16:20

But since DRC2 is that good, why RS4 understeers so much? Quattro can't help it and neither DRC2 can

That is a misconception the Quattro makes a can understeer sooner and neither does DRC, what makes any car understeer is excessive weight over the front axle and entering the corner way too fast for the grip available in the tyres but while this is a problem it isn't a case that the RS4 starts the understeer sooner, in fact both the M3 and RS4 roughly start to push the nose at the same speed, the difference is the way this can be controlled.

In the M3 you either back off or add throttle which either pulls the nose into line or breaks free the tail with the desired effect of regaining control to the front wheels, with the RS4 you have to back off as extra throttle at this point will push the nose wider but once grip at the front is regained then full throttle can be applied. Trust me when I say it that any racing driver will tell you that power sliding which is effective what breaking the tail free is has to be the least effect way of going quickly around a corner, fun yes but not quick.

tvrfan

January 17th, 2008, 16:58

@leadfoot, or others who knows,

Is that right?

" Audi Drive Select with Dynamic Steering is the sportdiff. (Torque Vectoring)???? "

Leadfoot

January 17th, 2008, 17:32

@leadfoot, or others who knows,

Is that right?

" Audi Drive Select with Dynamic Steering is the sportdiff. (Torque Vectoring)???? "

No Sport Diff isn't Dynamic Steering, I believe you can currently order the new A4 with Audi Drive Select in combination with the suspension and steering setups but not Sport Diff, it's to be introduced with the S4 and then rolled out to others from that point on. :thumb:

KresoF1

January 17th, 2008, 17:36

NO.

You can order Audi Drive Select, Dynamic Steering and Damper Control for new A4 and A5/S5. BUT, it still do NOT include sportdiff. As Leadfoot and Qisha said-sportdiff will be introduced at new S4 first, then on Q5 and S5(late 2008/early 2009).

tvrfan

January 17th, 2008, 20:06

has the TQ sportsdiff. another name? like BMWs one DPC? i think that sportdiff. and TQ arent the right words. ^^

artur777

January 17th, 2008, 20:35

That is a misconception the Quattro makes a can understeer sooner and neither does DRC, what makes any car understeer is excessive weight over the front axle and entering the corner way too fast for the grip available in the tyres but while this is a problem it isn't a case that the RS4 starts the understeer sooner, in fact both the M3 and RS4 roughly start to push the nose at the same speed, the difference is the way this can be controlled.

In the M3 you either back off or add throttle which either pulls the nose into line or breaks free the tail with the desired effect of regaining control to the front wheels, with the RS4 you have to back off as extra throttle at this point will push the nose wider but once grip at the front is regained then full throttle can be applied. Trust me when I say it that any racing driver will tell you that power sliding which is effective what breaking the tail free is has to be the least effect way of going quickly around a corner, fun yes but not quick.

very nice post!
break off means just using neither throttle nor break pedal?

Leadfoot

January 17th, 2008, 21:16

very nice post!
break off means just using neither throttle nor break pedal?

I don't know how else to explain it, modern car are design that if you lift your foot off the throttle the nose regains grip and tightens it's line and this is the way it should be, also almost every modern car is designed to understeer near the limit as a warning to the driver that grip is about to be lost.

The problem is that must people assume that the rwd chassis has more answers when this limit is reached but the truth is that it's the other way round and this is proven when conditions turn wet and slippery, this is when the ability to move the power to different axles proves that awd is still superior.

I will not doubt that for pure entertainment factor rwd is the ticket but it's not the most efficient way of traveling quickly, that is the domain of the awd car.

raulg

January 17th, 2008, 23:54

I don't know how else to explain it, modern car are design that if you lift your foot off the throttle the nose regains grip and tightens it's line and this is the way it should be, also almost every modern car is designed to understeer near the limit as a warning to the driver that grip is about to be lost.

The problem is that must people assume that the rwd chassis has more answers when this limit is reached but the truth is that it's the other way round and this is proven when conditions turn wet and slippery, this is when the ability to move the power to different axles proves that awd is still superior.

I will not doubt that for pure entertainment factor rwd is the ticket but it's not the most efficient way of traveling quickly, that is the domain of the awd car.

AWD will work better even on dry. It's just easier to see the effects on wet/snow, cause the limits are reached much sooner there, but it's the same priciples on any surface at all. Having the traction on all 4 tires will result in more "turning power", because you don't use so much of the tire (contact to the ground) as RWD cars.

And true about sliding=slower, you won't ever see a real race where drivers use RWD for fun; unless the surface is really slipery, like a mud rally, but in that case everyone is wearing 4x4 systems anyway.

artur777

January 18th, 2008, 00:11

AWD will work better even on dry. It's just easier to see the effects on wet/snow, cause the limits are reached much sooner there, but it's the same priciples on any surface at all. Having the traction on all 4 tires will result in more "turning power", because you don't use so much of the tire (contact to the ground) as RWD cars.

And true about sliding=slower, you won't ever see a real race where drivers use RWD for fun; unless the surface is really slipery, like a mud rally, but in that case everyone is wearing 4x4 systems anyway.

So, AWD makes possible to corner faster.
Am I right if say that for the first half of a corner it's better to be RWD and for the second half of a corner it's better to be FWD.
And AWD with dynamic distribution combines its all!
That's the Quattro2+ benefit? Then Quattro3 with TQ will slay everybody with other transmission :applause:

Rutkowsky

January 18th, 2008, 01:40

That is a misconception the Quattro makes a can understeer sooner and neither does DRC, what makes any car understeer is excessive weight over the front axle and entering the corner way too fast for the grip available in the tyres but while this is a problem it isn't a case that the RS4 starts the understeer sooner, in fact both the M3 and RS4 roughly start to push the nose at the same speed, the difference is the way this can be controlled.

In the M3 you either back off or add throttle which either pulls the nose into line or breaks free the tail with the desired effect of regaining control to the front wheels, with the RS4 you have to back off as extra throttle at this point will push the nose wider but once grip at the front is regained then full throttle can be applied. Trust me when I say it that any racing driver will tell you that power sliding which is effective what breaking the tail free is has to be the least effect way of going quickly around a corner, fun yes but not quick.

Thanx for that. I came across this F1 driver, testing RS4. Halfway through he says - A lot of understeer!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aH0Jjs_nvc&feature=related

Leadfoot

January 18th, 2008, 10:36

Thanx for that. I came across this F1 driver, testing RS4. Halfway through he says - A lot of understeer!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aH0Jjs_nvc&feature=related

Everything has to take into context, it is true that once the nose of the RS4 goes if you keep the power on the thing will continue the run wider, where as with a powerful rwd car you may be able to trim the front by making the tail slide, but at the speed where either the RS4 or M3's nose will be letting go it will be pretty hard to get the tail to come into play unless it's a sharp slow speed corner.

But the objective should always be to keep all four tyres in contact with the surface.

In any case you should never ask a racing driver how to drive an awd car because they haven't a clue, always look for a rally driver. :dig: