Question about the R8 V10

[Audifan92]

My father and i were talking and thinking about it, and If Audi was to make the R8 V10 wouldnt they be takeing sales away from lambo?
The hp could be made more than the Gallardo, and the price would be cheaper.
And Audi owns Lamborghini, so i dont think they would put more power than a Gallardo.

What do you guys think?

[KresoF1]

Facelifted Gallardo with more power will be introduced at Geneva in March.

[Leadfoot]

Facelifted Gallardo with more power will be introduced at Geneva in March.

He has a very valid point, the current 420hp R8 has proven to be better than the Gallardo in numerous reviews (especially Car of the Year reviews) and that was a car which was down 100hp to the Lambo, when the R8v10 comes the power gap between the two will be much smaller, 40hp at most so I said that unless their two prices come a lot closer the R8 will continue to steal sales from the Gallardo.

Lets face it, who in their right mind would pick a Lambo over an Audi because regardless of who owns the company now there is still the issue with reliability (not Italy's strongest suit) that you just don't get with an Audi.

[Audiphile]

I think the two are geared to two different drivers. Someone who wants a Lambo, wants the visibility. The R8 driver might be more for the substance. Either way, Audi owns Lambo so it makes money at both ends.

[PeterJohn]

People buy Lambos for more than the numbers. It's all about perception, dude.

Lambo is rightly worried about keeping the brand exclusive. Selling more cars now might ruin the company in the long run. So through the R8, Lambo can take advantage of economy of scale, without turning into the Volkswagen of supercars.

Ferrari has this strategy as well, sharing technology with Maserati. Porsche as well. People said they were selling out with the Cayenne, but in fact, making money from a car so far removed from the traditional 911, has helped to keep the 911 fresh. Imagine if instead of Cayennes, you had thousands of low budget Porsche 912s on the streets. It would kill the 911.

So no, I don't think the R8 is a threat to the Gallardo. I'd say it's a savior.

[+44 Dave]

Maybe becoming a threat to the Gallardo is another reason why they're toying with putting the V12 TDI in the R8.

Achieving great performance but still in keeping with Audi's market, who mostly are looking for subtly, design and performance. Not the image of money, loud design and attention seeking criteria.

:brag:

[Leadfoot]

PeterJohn,

I know the Cayenne has been a great success for Porsche and has helped full their pockets for future developments but it wasn't Porsche's saviour when the company almost when belly-up, that title belongs to the Boxster, Porsche's greatest car to date.

P.S.

I like the 911 but when are Porsche going to drop this silly design and allow the Cayman's layout to realise it's true potential with decent power and the status it deserves. The problem with Porsche is that they are similar to Jaguar in that fear of alienating their customers are holding back their greatness as chassis designers.

[itisme]

porsche as main stockholder of VAG isn't that much happy with the developement at Audi with their TTS/TTRS as a competitor of the cayman and also the R8 for the 911. But as you can see they build them nevertheless. Guess Porsche causes more worries to Audi then Lamborghini sales do :)

[PeterJohn]

The Cayman certainly has more potential, but the 911 is unique. The Cayman has a bunch of competitors, but the 911s nearest competition are either GTs or exotics, but always very different cars to the 911. If you take the 911 out of the Porsche line up, what is there to distinguise Porsche from all the other sportscar makers? Even a blind person could spot a 911 from half a km away. That's a sort of brand awareness that money can't buy. If you drive a 911, you don't have to explain anything.

Plus, why mess with a winning formula? Why put the bread and butter of thousands on the line?

The savior bit was about the R8. The R8 will enable Lamborghini to be high tech and exclusive, without being rediculously priced. Let's face it, Lamborghini is an inferior brand to Ferrari. Lamborghini is Eminem, but Ferrari is Elvis. A big part of its attraction is that its not a Ferrari. It's the rebel. The nouveau riche flipping off the artistocrats.
It is essential to the future of Lamborghini that they put a limit on their production numbers, and never saturate the market. You don't want Lamborghini to become the next ferrari. There's no room for that. You want it to stay that tractor maker that's biting at the calves of the established supercar makers.

The next Gallardo will benefit from the R8 technical features (despite weight and power, the R8 was faster around the Top Gear track), and I bet will be produced in lower numbers.

As long as the image of Lamborghini remains intact, the feeling they invoke, the R8 will never be a threat to the Gallardo. On the contrairy, it relieves the Gallardo from the rules of economy of scale.

A lot of cheaper things are faster than a Gallardo. As long as its plenty fast, a blast to drive, and makes lots of noise, people won't care what cars are a couple of seconds faster on the Nürburgring. But again, it's essential that the brand remains exclucive.

[artur777]

The Cayman certainly has more potential, but the 911 is unique. The Cayman has a bunch of competitors, but the 911s nearest competition are either GTs or exotics, but always very different cars to the 911. If you take the 911 out of the Porsche line up, what is there to distinguise Porsche from all the other sportscar makers? Even a blind person could spot a 911 from half a km away. That's a sort of brand awareness that money can't buy. If you drive a 911, you don't have to explain anything.

Plus, why mess with a winning formula? Why put the bread and butter of thousands on the line?

The savior bit was about the R8. The R8 will enable Lamborghini to be high tech and exclusive, without being rediculously priced. Let's face it, Lamborghini is an inferior brand to Ferrari. Lamborghini is Eminem, but Ferrari is Elvis. A big part of its attraction is that its not a Ferrari. It's the rebel. The nouveau riche flipping off the artistocrats.
It is essential to the future of Lamborghini that they put a limit on their production numbers, and never saturate the market. You don't want Lamborghini to become the next ferrari. There's no room for that. You want it to stay that tractor maker that's biting at the calves of the established supercar makers.

The next Gallardo will benefit from the R8 technical features (despite weight and power, the R8 was faster around the Top Gear track), and I bet will be produced in lower numbers.

As long as the image of Lamborghini remains intact, the feeling they invoke, the R8 will never be a threat to the Gallardo. On the contrairy, it relieves the Gallardo from the rules of economy of scale.

A lot of cheaper things are faster than a Gallardo. As long as its plenty fast, a blast to drive, and makes lots of noise, people won't care what cars are a couple of seconds faster on the Nürburgring. But again, it's essential that the brand remains exclucive.

Agree in the part of a brand name exclusivity!

Ferrari - Lambo
R8 - 911
and others

[chewym]

Ferraris and Lambos are bought to show off. Which works best when they start at 150-200,000 in US. I doubt that the V10 R8 would hurt sales much. And it won't hurt 911 sales as Audi will sell very few R8s compared to Porsche with 911s. The R8 is probably more exclusive than the Ferrari F430 currently.

[RXBG]

i had not heard about a gayardo refresh, only about the power bump. to max, i'd say, 550 hp. that engine is as highly strung out and engineered as it can be at this point.

i'd venture the V10 in the R8 will pump out about 510 hp. hopefully they keep the thing light.

assuming the V10 R8 costs about 140K base (USD)- the V8 base cost is 110K- it'll be a steal compared to the gayardo 210K. the gayardo will make 40 hp more and an insignificant amount of higher torque.

i know a lot of you will hate to hear it, but the porsche influence has just begun.

here goes.....

i wouldn't be surprised if lambo were to be put on the chopping block in the next couple of years. for me, no problem, as i think this italian marque should be owned by italians- even though they have a hell of a time managing it.

[itisme]

i had not heard about a gayardo ...

lol ;), me too


I think the Porsche's influence isn't going to be sooooo much noticeable. I think it's more the other way around. Porsche has now tons of opportunitys to make it's model range grow. The Q5 offers a great platform for a smaller Cayenne, the same counts for the A3 or the TT platform usable for Porsche as a BMW 130i rival. Even a Diesel is now an option for Porsche, like the V12 TDI for Cayenne and Panamera. I don't think that Audi really steals buyers from Porsche. it's more the other way around. They are still totally different orientated companies. Just my 2 cents

[Leadfoot]

Plus, why mess with a winning formula? Why put the bread and butter of thousands on the line?


This so called bread and butter you are talking about is not the 911 but cars like the Boxster, Cayenne and Cayman. Always remember that it was the 911 indirectly which almost caused Porsche's bankruptcy, so when the economy took a down turn Porsche were still charging way to much for the 911 and the car stopped selling. It roughly costs the same to make a Boxster or Cayman as it does a 997, we are basically being ripped off for the pleasure of driving something which is inferior in design, regardless of how well it now performs.

I don't believe Porsche should get rid of the 911 but should reposition it so as the let the their engineering skill be shown in a new light and not for the company which could make even a flawed design handle.

[gabbby69006]

We have to consider that Porsche have tryed to stop the R8 project. Actually, I think the R8 doesn't have a twin turbo not for fire problem, but because it make the car too fast against the 911 Turbo and GT3-2.

Put a V10 TT in the R8 is not a so hard job.

[Leadfoot]

Are you so sure that Porsche tried to stop the R8, I think if Porsche has defended itself against an every improving Ferrari (308,328,348,355,360 & 430) then I don't think that Audi's limited sales will be a major threat. In fact the R8 could help Porsche shift the 911 to retirement and co-develop with Audi a new R8 and successor to the 911 based on the similar chassis but with differing engines, transmissions and styling.

Another thing about a v10tt R8 would be that must see true sportscar as N/A and no turboed, with the exception of Porsche and a few minor players almost all are powered by N/A engines. Being a new kid on the block it's best to run with the crowd instead of starting on a different path.

Apart of the above, such an engine setup would I you have said put not only the GT3-2 and 997tt in the shade but both forms of the Lamborghinis.

[PeterJohn]

Your hatred for the 911 surpasses that of Clarkson, Leadfoot. :lovl:

[RXBG]

We have to consider that Porsche have tryed to stop the R8 project. Actually, I think the R8 doesn't have a twin turbo not for fire problem, but because it make the car too fast against the 911 Turbo and GT3-2.

Put a V10 TT in the R8 is not a so hard job.

sorry gabbby. it is tough. the V10 TT burned in at least two R8 mules with it. the problem with turbos is cooling them. with a mid engine it is hard to cool enough. even the larger NA V10 in the gayardo requires sig larger cooling ducts in the design than the V8 R8's. that audi is likely to make it work with a simple enlargement of the current ducts behind the doors is a marvel imo. the gayardo engine make just as much power as this upcomng V10 and it has larger side cooling ducts and incorporates two additional horizontal ones behind the doors.

to make a TT V10 cool enough the R8 would need a significant redesign of the rear lid or even require an over the roof intake of some sort. remember audi builds this car like a microscope. if anything were to go wrong with it audi would lose credibility and product confidence dramatically.

i am not an engineer, but the only TT engine that might get enough cooling back there would be a V6 or, perhaps.... maybe, a V8.

[ZeroCool]

@RXBG...

That's the point....so the V10 is going to be a V10 FSI...

But my question is - why are they going to put the V12 TDI (which is also a Bi-Turbo) in the R8 ... when they have problems with a V10 TT?

Ok, it's just a concept, and maybe they'll redesign the R8 with a Facelift and then put the V12 TDI in series...could be....because when i remember the Le Mans Concept also had a V10 TT ... --> concept ;)

We'll see

[RXBG]

@zerocool

people misunderstand all these rumors so easily. from the beginning it has been known that whatever r8 concept is shown in detroit it is still a concept. audi is going to put this car there (with the TDI V12 it is presumed) in order to attract attention. does it mean the car will go into production next month? next year? or ever? who knows. it will be a concept study that may, in a few years, yield a smaller diesel engine in the R8 or, who knows, maybe the actual V12 once audi has time to figure out how to cool it, etc....but for now it will only be a concept. and that is all.

i don't think the V10 will be shown because that is an engine that is ready for production and it is too early to debut a new production iteration of the R8. they'll probably use a targa -type R8 chassis to showcase the engine concept in order to gauge perception of the future production styling of the R8 targa that will debut sometime in 2009.

[gabbby69006]

Yes, coolling is a issue, but the engine bay is roomy, and the engine is not so big. The biggest turboed engine in mid-rear is... the veyron ! Do you really think audi cannot make it runing right in the R8 ?

Mmmh... I think that the gearbox is not so good (e-gear), but I still think that if they want, they can. They have a good skill in turbo integration : B5 RS4, RS6, etc... a lot of really hot cars.

I think that at the third fire, they decid to stop the project V10 TT at high office, because porsche want stop it before final stage.

[tvrfan]

Yes, coolling is a issue, but the engine bay is roomy, and the engine is not so big. The biggest turboed engine in mid-rear is... the veyron ! Do you really think audi cannot make it runing right in the R8 ?

Mmmh... I think that the gearbox is not so good (e-gear), but I still think that if they want, they can. They have a good skill in turbo integration : B5 RS4, RS6, etc... a lot of really hot cars.

I think that at the third fire, they decid to stop the project V10 TT at high office, because porsche want stop it before final stage.

Porsche has nothing to do with that! ;)

[Leadfoot]

Your hatred for the 911 surpasses that of Clarkson, Leadfoot. :lovl:

You are totally missing my point regarding the 911, Porsche has insistently stuck to trying to make it handle instead of pursuing other chassis design which would have placed them at the fore-front of the sportscar/supercar arena for many of years instead of only the last few. Look at the CarreraGT, a car which in many people's eyes as a better design and execution than the Enzo, clearly Porsche knows how to make a brilliant supercar.

The 911 has run it's course and now they should move on and develop something which can continue to compete with the Ferraris and Lambos of the world. Just think how good a Cayman would be if the same effort was placed on it that the engineers have given the 911 through the years, Porsche would be the biggest name in the game instead of Ferrari.

What is it with the Germans that doggedly stick to a design and spend years to finally get it to work instead of changing the design in the first place, Porsche has the rear engined 911, Audi has it's engine in the nose and BMW has it's 50/50 weight balance. I admire all of these companies because in each situation they have completed their goals, the 997 is a great handling car, the RS4 has proven that it's as good as the best of them and BMW has proved that through electronics it's 50/50 balance can to tamed when weather takes a turn for the worse.

[Leadfoot]

@zerocool

people misunderstand all these rumors so easily. from the beginning it has been known that whatever r8 concept is shown in detroit it is still a concept. audi is going to put this car there (with the TDI V12 it is presumed) in order to attract attention. does it mean the car will go into production next month? next year? or ever? who knows. it will be a concept study that may, in a few years, yield a smaller diesel engine in the R8 or, who knows, maybe the actual V12 once audi has time to figure out how to cool it, etc....but for now it will only be a concept. and that is all.

i don't think the V10 will be shown because that is an engine that is ready for production and it is too early to debut a new production iteration of the R8. they'll probably use a targa -type R8 chassis to showcase the engine concept in order to gauge perception of the future production styling of the R8 targa that will debut sometime in 2009.

What can I say, lets see what the future brings. ;)