Hot stuff about V10 and burning test mules in the past!

[itisme]

Go ahead, and read on your own...

copied from www.worldcarfans.com




Why the Audi RS8 Burned

http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2007/11/28/9071128.005/9071128.005.1M.jpg

New V10 in the works

Back in July we pointed a blaming finger at an oil or gasoline leak, but now we know the true cause of the pictured blasphemy. quattro boss Werner Frowein spoke with Swedish journalists and revealed that the now famous burnt Audi R8 on the 'Ring was indeed a RS8 test mule. The test mule was equipped with the RS6 Avant twin-turbo V10 delivering 580 hp, but in the mid-engine set-up it also caused the Audi RS8 to catch fire due to the produced heat. To make matters worse, three test mules went up in flames in this manner.

Werner Frowein: “The 580 hp strong V10 will not be making it into the RS8, we are currently working on a ten-cylinder with just over 500 hp.” He also mentions that the RS models will start production earlier into the models life-cycle, as we mentioned earlier this week.

Other news is that Audi is developing an Audi TT RS with a new 5-cylinder 2.3 liter engine, producing 310 hp and is meant to take on the likes of the BMW Z4 M Coupe.

Furthermore, Nieuws.nl mentions that the Audi RS4 should not be too far off, which confuses us at the WCF newsroom since Audi tends to only produce one RS model at a time and the RS6 Avant just went into production. The RS4 should be powered by a V8 or bi-turbo V6 and compete with the Mercedes C63 AMG and BMW M3, but mr Frowein let nothing slip on the subject.




see article here (http://www.worldcarfans.com/9071128.005/why-the-audi-rs8-burned)

[RXBG]

that being said, lets hypothesize that the V10 will make 510 hp. if the car gains maybe 75 lbs in overall weight (i think it will be a minimal weight gain because structurally it is made for that kind of power and not much will be needed to bolster it except some larger wheels and brakes- in addition to the larger engine's weight)

i expect it could make torque somewhere near the 400 range.

coupled to a manual trandsmission i can expect it to jolt out an official 4.2 0-60 time and real world 3.9 times while pushing top speed from 187 to 200+.

maybe drop the ring time to 7:40 on stock tires.

and drop the 1/4 mile time to about 12 flat.

what do you guys think?

:vhmmm:

[nene]

Welcome to last Summer's news :)

[RXBG]

Welcome to last Summer's news :)

true, but now it is straight from the horse's mouth publicly- NA V10 500 or so hp for the production car

[Damienr8]

that being said, lets hypothesize that the V10 will make 510 hp. if the car gains maybe 75 lbs in overall weight (i think it will be a minimal weight gain because structurally it is made for that kind of power and not much will be needed to bolster it except some larger wheels and brakes- in addition to the larger engine's weight)

i expect it could make torque somewhere near the 400 range.

coupled to a manual trandsmission i can expect it to jolt out an official 4.2 0-60 time and real world 3.9 times while pushing top speed from 187 to 200+.

maybe drop the ring time to 7:40 on stock tires.

and drop the 1/4 mile time to about 12 flat.

what do you guys think?

:vhmmm:

Here are my thoughts...

Audi will create a new 'lightweight' (aluminum/magnesium) 5.2L V10 FSI pushing 520hp and just a bit over 400lb/ft or torque. They will use extensive weight saving components on the car so that the weight gain is marginal (about 25-50lbs), if not, nonexistent.

BTW, how is the weather down south man, I am not fond if the temperature changes the northeast is going through. It's awesome that you will be able to drive your upcoming R8, year round!

[Leadfoot]

Here are my thoughts...

Audi will create a new 'lightweight' (aluminum/magnesium) 5.2L V10 FSI pushing 520hp and just a bit over 400lb/ft or torque. They will use extensive weight saving components on the car so that the weight gain is marginal (about 25-50lbs), if not, nonexistent.

BTW, how is the weather down south man, I am not fond if the temperature changes the northeast is going through. It's awesome that you will be able to drive your upcoming R8, year round!

This IS an all new engine not seen in anything else, some far. ;) The output figure I believe will be knocking close to the 520ps with torque approaching 480~500Nm over a decent range though nowhere near as wide as the RS6. I also doubt the actual weight of the engine will be much up on the current 4.2L V8 and as for the rest of the actual transmission/structure they will be no strengthening require as the both are already coping with similar amounts in the Gallardo. Bigger wheels/tyres will be negated with Ceramic brakes so again little or no weight gain.

I personally reckon if the current R8 makes 280hp/tonne then you can expect the new V10 version to produce something like 330hp/tonne or greater.

Does this sound reasonable. :D

P.S.

I forgot about rev limit, lets say 8000rpm. A nice round number.

[tvrfan]

hmm when the RS4 is not far away and audi could offer the models earlier. does that mean, that they can build more models at the same time than before????

[RXBG]

leadfoot----- 480-500 of torque is a bit much for a NA V10 of about 5.0 to 5.2 L.


damien----- to keep cost at about 20K over the V8 they prob won't use an CF body panels, etc... i think the only body changes will be the wheels, engine and its hardware, and cosmetic differences like the sideblades. yes. i am psyched. winter in florida can be spectacular. too bad i'll be getting my car when the weather begins to get warm.

i am hoping the V10 will be only that much more than the V8 since it will be less difficult to convince the wife of the two extra cylinders.

[Leadfoot]

RXBG,

Not ft/lbs but Nm, there is a difference. 480Nm is equal to 370ft/lbs or there abouts.

I agree that apart from the things you have mentioned the brakes are the only addition to the mix. I don't know why but I am convinced that Ceramics will come as standard, if not then the standard brakes should be more than capable.

[desmo_46]

Second burning... ! : http://paultan.org/archives/2007/11/27/audi-rs8-to-be-powered-by-rs6-twin-turbo-v10/

[RussianM3_dude]

Damn, that's a hot car.

[RXBG]

leadfoot- then yes. we are onto the same thing. i'd venture 390 ft lbs of torque. they might beef up the std brakes and offer the CC brakes as an option for sure. the CC brakes will run close to 10K USD so it'd make more sense to optionize them.

i'd prob splurge on them since they look as cool as they'll be after a spirited run on a track.

[Damienr8]

RXBG,

Not ft/lbs but Nm, there is a difference. 480Nm is equal to 370ft/lbs or there abouts.

I agree that apart from the things you have mentioned the brakes are the only addition to the mix. I don't know why but I am convinced that Ceramics will come as standard, if not then the standard brakes should be more than capable.

Oh I see lol. I automatically assumed 480lb FT as well. hehe.

[chewym]

Not sure how that engine is any different form the one in the Lamborghini Gallardo. Same horsepower, same torque. Sure it probably has FSI, but then at best it would be a high RPM S8 engine. Which in itself is just the Gallardo engine with a slightly bigger bore/ Audi V8 engine with 2 more cylinders. Maybe they can add some more bore like the new V6 and add Vavlelift.

[RXBG]

Not sure how that engine is any different form the one in the Lamborghini Gallardo. Same horsepower, same torque. Sure it probably has FSI, but then at best it would be a high RPM S8 engine. Which in itself is just the Gallardo engine with a slightly bigger bore/ Audi V8 engine with 2 more cylinders. Maybe they can add some more bore like the new V6 and add Vavlelift.

hopefully it is a high revving S8 engine. it would then have more torque than the gayardo, and spread nicely around.

i wonder where else audi will put this engine since it is bound to be a real gem.

[Leadfoot]

i wonder where else audi will put this engine since it is bound to be a real gem.

Ah well, it is destined for another future Audi. :hahahehe:

But as M3_dude rightly points out, I could tell you but then I would have to kill you. :lovl:

[Damienr8]

Ah well, it is destined for another future Audi. :hahahehe:

But as M3_dude rightly points out, I could tell you but then I would have to kill you. :lovl:

Stop teasing up and getting us all rowdy lol :jlol: I would think that they would put it in maybe the upcoming A/S/RS7 or next S8. Thats all i can think of. I hope to god they don't drop it in the RS5.

[Leadfoot]

Stop teasing up and getting us all rowdy lol :jlol: I would think that they would put it in maybe the upcoming A/S/RS7 or next S8. Thats all i can think of. I hope to god they don't drop it in the RS5.

What in the RS5, surely it would be too heavy for that. They would need something a lot lighter than the current V10 to make the thing handling right, something like a new V10 would be need. ;)

[RXBG]

there is a lot of insinuating. and info is always bound to change. i'd say the high rev NA V10 might be seen in the next S6, S7, or S8.

i guess that would leave the TT V10 to the RS6 and RS7?


:vhmmm: :vhmmm: :vhmmm:

[Leadfoot]

there is a lot of insinuating. and info is always bound to change. i'd say the high rev NA V10 might be seen in the next S6, S7, or S8.

i guess that would leave the TT V10 to the RS6 and RS7?


:vhmmm: :vhmmm: :vhmmm:

But where does this leave the models that are closer to production, like the RS5 and RS4, both of these will be out before a RS7. Will they be turboed, N/A, still be V8 powered or V10.

Without speculation and based on Audi's own comments they are as much as saying that the RS5 will be out in Mid'09 with the RS4 less than a year later. By such times the M3 CSL should be with us and we will know what the RS5 will be up against.

We know that the RS5 won't match it on weight so it will have to have more power to compete, I'm guessing a minimum of 480hp and 370ft/lbs is to be expected. Can a 4.2L produce this? highly unlikely, you would need to increase the capacity to closer to that of the Cayenne's 4.8L V8 for that output, so will it be turboed? there is a good chance of that as the RS6 rekindle the move to turbo power again but then again the current RS4's N/A engine has proved to be a real success and Audi might want to keep it.

The problem with the V8 route is increasing the capacity will make it harder to match the 8250rpm of the current engine so my opinion is either Audi goes back to turbos or they fit the engine of the R8v10 as it will be all new, will match the revs required, will match the outputs and lastly needs to be used in more than one model.

So there you go, call my mad but that what I think.

[Rage]

But where does this leave the models that are closer to production, like the RS5 and RS4, both of these will be out before a RS7. Will they be turboed, N/A, still be V8 powered or V10.

Without speculation and based on Audi's own comments they are as much as saying that the RS5 will be out in Mid'09 with the RS4 less than a year later. By such times the M3 CSL should be with us and we will know what the RS5 will be up against.

We know that the RS5 won't match it on weight so it will have to have more power to compete, I'm guessing a minimum of 480hp and 370ft/lbs is to be expected. Can a 4.2L produce this? highly unlikely, you would need to increase the capacity to closer to that of the Cayenne's 4.8L V8 for that output, so will it be turboed? there is a good chance of that as the RS6 rekindle the move to turbo power again but then again the current RS4's N/A engine has proved to be a real success and Audi might want to keep it.

The problem with the V8 route is increasing the capacity will make it harder to match the 8250rpm of the current engine so my opinion is either Audi goes back to turbos or they fit the engine of the R8v10 as it will be all new, will match the revs required, will match the outputs and lastly needs to be used in more than one model.

So there you go, call my mad but that what I think.

Hmmm, RS5 to have TTV8 or NAV10.....

Life could be worse!! :revs:

All i have to do is build a cartman style time machine and accelerate to summer '09 .

[RXBG]

i don't think the A5/A4 lines would ever get a V10 type engine. remember that audi may be producing a higher displacement V8, one that is lighter, bigger, and more efficicent- with FSI and VL.

the new A8 will need something bigger than the upcoming TT V6 in the S4 and it cannot continue with the same engine it has now (the 4.2 FSI V8) given that the base benz engine in the US (5.5L) makes near 400 hp. whatever replaces the 4.2 would be a candidate for the next RS4/5- who knows.

another possibility for the RS4/5 engine is a higher displacement NA version of the current RS4/R8 engine. a 4.5 or 4.8 L version of such a car could produce close to 500 hp and another 50 lbs of torque.

[RXBG]

http://jalopnik.com/cars/news/sheep-follow-the-audi-rs8-328158.php

i am down for the V10, personally. NA, of course.

but... and this is a big but, if the next engine is NOT a V10 the only other real possibility is a TT V8. this would make a lot of sense because THAT is an engine that could see multiple uses- i.e RS4 and RS5. a TT V8 could easily make 500+ hp. it made 550 in the actual LMP1 prototype.

but every day we hear more confirmation being piled on the V10 front. we'll know for sure in january in detroit.

:brag:

[Leadfoot]

i don't think the A5/A4 lines would ever get a V10 type engine. remember that audi may be producing a higher displacement V8, one that is lighter, bigger, and more efficicent- with FSI and VL.

whatever replaces the 4.2 would be a candidate for the next RS4/5- who knows.

another possibility for the RS4/5 engine is a higher displacement NA version of the current RS4/R8 engine. a 4.5 or 4.8 L version of such a car could produce close to 500 hp and another 50 lbs of torque.

That's basically what I was suggesting but as you will well know, increase the displacement with the same number of cylinders and that means bigger, heavier pistons to put which usually means it can't revs as high.

Now I personally don't have a problem with that but maybe Audi does and they want it to rev just as high as the last model. The only way to do that and provide the output mentioned above will be from 10 cylinders for 4.8L~5.0L capacity.

Remember the belief is that the new V10 for the R8 is a totally new engine and is based on the V8 from the RS4. This engine may well include VL so as I said, why not use it in the RS5 as the engine bay has already been designed for it. This is just an option that is out to them to use, it's not gospel.

[Damienr8]

That's basically what I was suggesting but as you will well know, increase the displacement with the same number of cylinders and that means bigger, heavier pistons to put which usually means it can't revs as high.

Now I personally don't have a problem with that but maybe Audi does and they want it to rev just as high as the last model. The only way to do that and provide the output mentioned above will be from 10 cylinders for 4.8L~5.0L capacity.

Remember the belief is that the new V10 for the R8 is a totally new engine and is based on the V8 from the RS4. This engine may well include VL so as I said, why not use it in the RS5 as the engine bay has already been designed for it. This is just an option that is out to them to use, it's not gospel.

I agree with RXBG for the most part. I just don't see Audi dropping a V10, of any sort, into the A4/A5 model range. I think that the new upcoming V10 would find it's home in the R8, for now. We also know that Audi is developing a new V8, with greater displacement, less weight, more power capabilities and a host of new technologies. I think that engine will find its home in the next RS5 and I do not think it will be turbocharged. This is all speculation of course, I am just basing my opinions from the slew of rumors that are going about.

[Damienr8]

I have one question for you engineering gurus. While I do know alot about engineering technologies, engine offerings, performance figures and industry advancements, I am no engineer and have little knowlegde on building engines.

Tell me, at what point should cylinders be added to offset displacement in liters. Should there be a 5L V6, does that even make sense? or should after say 4L max, the V6 should be a V8. Try to make some sense of my rambling, as i might not be explaining this correctly.

[Hy Octane]

As I pointed out several months ago, a little audi birdy told me to expect a diesel for the next US R8 ... he was right about no RS6 here..

[RXBG]

so manies birdies so little time.

[Leadfoot]

I have one question for you engineering gurus. While I do know alot about engineering technologies, engine offerings, performance figures and industry advancements, I am no engineer and have little knowlegde on building engines.

Tell me, at what point should cylinders be added to offset displacement in liters. Should there be a 5L V6, does that even make sense? or should after say 4L max, the V6 should be a V8. Try to make some sense of my rambling, as i might not be explaining this correctly.

I'm not an engineer either but if you look toward BMW's M-Division and you will see that they favour 500cc per cylinder, that's what they picked for both the M3 engine is V8 form and the M5/6 for the V10. I am not saying this is gospel and should be the volume limit for each cylinder but if you want an engine to really rev hard you wouldn't want to push it much past 4.5L in V8 form.

My problem is that based on the RS4's both outputs if a 4.5L could achieve similar results that would go a 4.5L version an output of 450PS and 340ft/lbs and a 4.8L version an output of 480PS and 362ft/lbs. Both a good and maybe with Value Lift things could improve even more, possibly increasing both by 15PS and 15ft/lbs.

All I am saying about the V10 is don't rule it out and a possibility.

[Audiphile]

It is speculated that the next generation A8L will be in the range of 420-450 bhp as the base engine. Assume a V8. The next generation S8 is speculated at 600 bhp [(can that be a TTV10 from the RS6 since the RS6 is already there?) (no RS versions for the A8)]. So what will happen to the uber flagship engine W12? Will it move up to 550 bhp TT similar to Bentley (or maybe a completely new V12)? It is well known that Audi AG is responsible for the engineering of the next Bentleys and that the Audi A8L and the Bentley Flying Spur (or equivalent) will be "sister" luxury cars developed by Audi.

[tvrfan]

As I pointed out several months ago, a little audi birdy told me to expect a diesel for the next US R8 ... he was right about no RS6 here..

the diesel just for US or also for europe???

hmm the V12 TDI would be nice but to heavy.

are there plans to place the V12 TDI in other cars like A8 or something?

[Audiphile]

The V12 TDI will be offered in the next generation A8L as well.

[Rage]

I dont think that a V10 will be necessarily worse for the handling of an RS5. If you look to rivals BMW the weight of the E92 M3 V8 acytually weighs less the the outgoing E46 V6 engine. If Audi are developing a new V10 then the same may be possible - to have a V10 that doesnt necessarily dictate ocean liner handling.

Also if you check the glowing reviews of the M5/M6 - both with V10 engines, even Jeremy clarkson of Top Gear compares it to rival supercars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFVrZc7wSr4

(make sure you watch it to the end)

[EKaru]

now how did this happen?

http://i11.tinypic.com/72qhgkw.jpg

[RussianM3_dude]

Aww Jeez, first it was the unintended acceleration, now it's the unintended combustion.

[EKaru]

Aww Jeez, first it was the unintended acceleration, now it's the unintended combustion.

something like that...

http://www.almuraba.net/hawadeth/audi-fire/audi.jpg
http://www.almuraba.net/hawadeth/audi-fire/audi%20(1).jpg
http://www.almuraba.net/hawadeth/audi-fire/audi%20(5).jpg
http://www.almuraba.net/hawadeth/audi-fire/audi%20(7).jpg
http://www.almuraba.net/hawadeth/audi-fire/audi%20(9).jpg