135i Coupe Vs Golf GTi Vs TT 3.2 - The winner is...

[HKS786]

...the TT 3.2 of course :hihi:

1st - Audi TT 3.2
2nd - Golf GTi
3rd - 135i Coupe

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Verdict:

If speed is your sole desire, then make a beeline for the BMW. Thanks to its twin-turbocharged 3.0-litre powerplant, the 135i is fast enough to wear an M badge – no doubt about it, the engine is a masterpiece. The trouble
is, the rest of the car doesn’t manage to hit the same heights.

The coupé lines are not pretty enough, the interior design is lacklustre and, worst of all, the 135i isn’t as involving as either of its VW Group rivals.

While the Audi TT is slower and less practical, it emerges from this test as a more desirable car. It’s a work of art inside and out, and also great to drive. We’ll let you into a little secret, though – the 2.0-litre version is nearly as fast, and has even sweeter handling with much lower running costs.

The Golf GTI emerges ahead of the BMW chiefly because of its price advantage, but it never once felt out of its depth in this company.

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[Sanjuro]

Strange they used a Gti in that group. But TT2 is a ripper car. A lot more than just an afterthought.

[Erik]

Surprising results, when will BMW lead the way again?

[HKS786]

I think that's very interesting results especially since the TT isnt even the S-line!

[Leadfoot]

It's not that surprising that the TT walked away with top honours, it not only has to most desireable shape, interior and engine note but it also has the best gearbox on the planet.

Does anyone know if it had magnetic ride as well?

P.S.

If the lowly TTv6 can best the top 1series Coupe with the engine of the world, what will the TT/S not do to the competition. :hihi:

[HKS786]

P.S.

If the lowly TTv6 can best the top 1series Coupe with the engine of the world, what will the TT/S not do to the competition. :hihi:

You took the words outta my mouth. :ttaddict:

[Mockenrue]

The (135i) coupé lines are not pretty enough


Now there's understatement for you! http://www.tyresmoke.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1.gif

[Fab]

Always happy to read this kind of test.

As I got both the TT V6 3.2 (MKI) and the GTI until recently (both being my wife's car) I am happy to see such outcome vs the beamer.

I personally fully agree as I enjoyed both cars a lot :cool2:

[RussianM3_dude]

In another test, the 130i beat the S3... So whatever.

[Leadfoot]

In another test, the 130i beat the S3... So whatever.

In this week's issue of Autocar they tested the 135i vs Cayman vs Z350 and they took along a S3 to give a more balanced rival to the 135i, yet this S3 didn't perform right at all, it's ride was firm and steering was lifeless so I think you can have bad cars and well as good ones, it's the luck of the draw.

It's funny but in this test they found the 135i felt better than the 335i they tested previously and yet EVO found the opposite.

[RussianM3_dude]

Personally I find the GTI a bit overpriced and the TT not that fun to drive in the end, especially in the 3.2 guise. For the performance, the 135i is actually a bit of a bargain, the only thing that is close, is the Nissan 350Z, but that's a pure sports car and has only 2 seats and a tiny boot. The TT makes sense if you live in the city, Liverpool/London/Manchester etc, the 135i would simply be wasted there. I see the GTI more as a daily runabout for somebody wealthy who already has something else in the garage.

[Leadfoot]

Bollocks with the GTi being over-priced, in comparison to what may I ask as it's a superior car to all the other hot-hatches and it a quality product compared to the rest of them as well. The TT has a problem in that it's too polished a product to be as entertaining as it could be but it's still a better class of car compared to the 135i which when you sit in it feels low rent in comparison. Around the track the 135i will only get away from the TT because of it's extra power and nothing else, the TT will corner as quick and possibly stop even quicker.

The 135i Coupe is one of those niche cars that BMW are so into building at the minute, there is no real point to it other than spreading it's customer's choice even wider. It basically doing everything that the 335i is doing in a slightly smaller package for little a saving.

And to think you have said that VAG's product sharing is silly and here are agreeing with BMW doing the same thing. :trash:

[RussianM3_dude]

The GTI is a Golf... could be a little cheaper. Too close to a R32 also.

[Leadfoot]

The GTI is a Golf... could be a little cheaper. Too close to a R32 also.

You are the first people I know who would class a GTi as cheaper or prefer the 1 series to a TT or R32. There is more to life than all things BMW and rwd you know.

If I was given a choice between the 135i and the TT3.2, I would chose the Audi without a moments thought on the matter, it's a quality product which is as much an occasion just sitting in it as driving the thing and when you park up it a pleasure to look at. You are aware when you touch and look at everything inside the car has been thought out with passion and not just pick from the parts bin.

Now can you seriously say the same about the 1 series coupe?

It wasn't a fair comparison comparing the TT to the 135i because after all the TT has more in common with the Cayman than a 2 door 1series with a boot.

[JavierNuvolari]

Nice result for the TT. For me...I dunno, since the official pics & specs of the 135i I've been really really looking forward for one and if not, then a TT 2.0TQ & mods would be the weapon of choice. I still don't get why they put a GTI on the comparison.

[Leadfoot]

Nice result for the TT. For me...I dunno, since the official pics & specs of the 135i I've been really really looking forward for one and if not, then a TT 2.0TQ & mods would be the weapon of choice. I still don't get why they put a GTI on the comparison.

Fair comment, but the fact that is too beat the 135i in the test proves it was valid to add it.

[RussianM3_dude]

In that case the Renault R27 and the new Abarth GP SS beat them all. Since they offer broadly similiar pace for even less money. Or one can say that the GTI is a better car then am E Class 270CDI.

[JavierNuvolari]

Fair comment, but the fact that is too beat the 135i in the test proves it was valid to add it.


lol, I guess it does:hihi:

[RussianM3_dude]

What about a test where a E46 M3 CS beat the RS4?????

[JavierNuvolari]

What about a test where a E46 M3 CS beat the RS4?????


Didn't 5th Gear did that?...can't remember the outcome though.

[crespo]

RS4 beat the CS in the 5th Gear test IIRC (remember Tiff entirely sideways in the RS4?)

[RussianM3_dude]

Nope. EVO tested the C55AMG, M3 and RS4.

[Leadfoot]

In that case the Renault R27 and the new Abarth GP SS beat them all. Since they offer broadly similiar pace for even less money. Or one can say that the GTI is a better car then am E Class 270CDI.

The Renault would only win if out right performance and handling was important to you because it's ride is uncomfortable, it torque steers everywhere because of it's LSD and it's build quality is plain rubbish. Clearly you only requirement is speed M3_dude which is the sort of attitude of an immature person.

I'm still trying to work out the similarity to the E-class 270CDI.:vhmmm:

[Leadfoot]

Nope. EVO tested the C55AMG, M3 and RS4.

Correct and they also rated the CS as a much better car than the CSL, would you agree with them on that too.;)

[Speedou]

Correct and they also rated the CS as a much better car than the CSL, would you agree with them on that too.;)

Maybe one of the stupidest thing to compare CS and CSL.

[Leadfoot]

Maybe one of the stupidest thing to compare CS and CSL.

I would totally agree with that but the facts are that is what their opinion was. I respect EVO's opinion more than most magazines as they don't seem to favour one brand's products regardless of how good they are, but the reason they favour BMW over Audi is purely entertainment factor, the abilities to throw the tail out which while fun isn't that practical or sensible on public roads now is it. The RS4 beat it hands down on everything else apart from this and they give the M3 victory be of the fun.

A silly result I thought.

[Speedou]

It just depends how you see driving. I'm seeing it quite same way than EVO ;) But yeah didn't blame you of that, just think it is insane to compare those two.

[Leadfoot]

It just depends how you see driving.

Trust me I enjoy driving as much as the next person but I prefer to do my spirited driving on the track as I respect the other road users. I think road testers place too much on this entertainment factor and not enough on the actual living with the cars, what the interior design is like, how comfortable they are, how easy they are to drive near the limit of adhesion etc.

Surely these are more valid than pure entertainment don't you think. :brag:

[RussianM3_dude]

I would totally agree with that but the facts are that is what their opinion was. I respect EVO's opinion more than most magazines as they don't seem to favour one brand's products regardless of how good they are, but the reason they favour BMW over Audi is purely entertainment factor, the abilities to throw the tail out which while fun isn't that practical or sensible on public roads now is it. The RS4 beat it hands down on everything else apart from this and they give the M3 victory be of the fun.

A silly result I thought.

Aren't these cars supposed to be all about fun???? If not, why not just buy an A4 3.0Q TDI, same real world pace as an RS4, half the price and half the fuel bills?

I have owned both the M3 (not even the CS one) and the RS4 and I am always envious when I see an M3. No question, I take the M3 over the RS4 anyday.\

As for usability... I have NO idea why people think you can't live with an M3 on a daily basis. I drove it through the winter in Canada on roads that are WAY worse then England (we have 20 cm and deeper potholes in Montreal), 50-100cm snow banks blocking your driveway, -20-30 C air temperature, salt on the roads etc. I had NO, read it again NO problems with having the M3 as a daily driver. Drove in 3-5 cm of fresh snow on top of packed snow... no problems. Remember, people in Russia used to drive RWD Ladas with no electronic aids on summer/allweather rubber... they managed just fine.

[Speedou]

Trust me I enjoy driving as much as the next person but I prefer to do my spirited driving on the track as I respect the other road users. I think road testers place too much on this entertainment factor and not enough on the actual living with the cars, what the interior design is like, how comfortable they are, how easy they are to drive near the limit of adhesion etc.

Surely these are more valid than pure entertainment don't you think. :brag:

I do believe that you enjoy as much. But my point is this. Every time I drive my parents car's (2xAudi) I do hate that how they control. You don't have to take that B-route and drive like crazy. It is enough when you have snow on the ground and you come to 90 degree turn. If you are just cruising you will still get lot of understeering. That is why I love RWD. In normal drive it still feels so much more logical to drive. Summer there really isn't that much difference. If you are not really pushing cars to the limits.

I'm totally with RussianM3_dude. My friend who had the e46 M3 just changed it to A3 2.0TQ with some tuning. (Porsche came for track driving). Now when the winter started he really started to hate the Audi. He is crying to get his BMW back. He says that the car is perfect all day cruiser. But every time it is slippery and you just one to drive nicely you still get that understeering. And I totally agree that problem with Audi. You can drive those without that problem, but then it is not again "just cruising".

[Leadfoot]

I'm all on for fun but what I am saying is valid, too many motoring magazines place too much on the fun factor of being able to hang the tail out and not enough on what 95% of driving is all about which is the actual living with the car. I have said before that I have owned two Porsches (both Boxsters) and the reason why I no longer have them or I'm driving another one is that away from the 5% when the car was a total dream to drive too many things annoyed me, like the noise when travelling at 70mph (you got out after 30mins with a headache), the quality of the sub controls (indicators feel really cheap), the Air-con which was good in the 90s but crap now-a-days and finally the seats which were too narrow at the shoulders.

It's very easy to make a decision for the 'fun' car with all of the above failings when you are only testing the car for a day like most magazines do and that is why I prefer to listen to long term opinions and it is here where Audi really do score highly.

I am not disagreeing with the merits of your case (well speedo's in any case) only opinions and especially the ones from roadtests have to be objective and not always ruled from the heart.

[Speedou]

Fair points. Just the reason why we all should have at least 2 cars :)

[Sanjuro]

As for usability... I have NO idea why people think you can't live with an M3 on a daily basis. I drove it through the winter in Canada on roads that are WAY worse then England (we have 20 cm and deeper potholes in Montreal), 50-100cm snow banks blocking your driveway, -20-30 C air temperature, salt on the roads etc. I had NO, read it again NO problems with having the M3 as a daily driver. Drove in 3-5 cm of fresh snow on top of packed snow... no problems. Remember, people in Russia used to drive RWD Ladas with no electronic aids on summer/allweather rubber... they managed just fine.

I've never read so much crap in my life. To top it off now the M3 can negotiate 20cm potholes. Awesome.

One day when you are old enough to get a car you go and try that.

[RussianM3_dude]

I bet you feel real intelligent writing that.

We have some huge potholes in Montreal, obviously if you drive into one at speed, it will damage the rim, I was just demonstrating the "quality" of the roads in Quebec.

[Sanjuro]

I bet you feel real intelligent writing that.

No just frustrated I guess that this planet is obviously in such a sad state that people have nothing better to do than spend their time slagging cars on an internet forum with nonsense to keep themselves entertained.

It's not you're fault the world's come to this though.

[RussianM3_dude]

So maybe you can enlighten me, fellow Montrealer, which part of my statement is false?

[Erik]

Nice and easy, thanks.

[RussianM3_dude]

No biggie, I am just trying to get an opinion of a fellow Montrealer on using a sports car in Quebec.

[Sanjuro]

Pretty poor comeback by your standards. Unless 20cm in Canada is different to 20cm in the rest of the world it's going to do a lot of damage to any car.

I guess as usual you are right again - magazine must be wrong and the TT is rubbish: and anyone on this site who enjoys using an Audi is just boring. Nothing against anyone here I guess we're just being proved wrong by an expert on everything. Just lucky we came across the expert before it's too late and to do something so stupid as buy one.

[RussianM3_dude]

I did not say that the M3 can survive a 20 cm pothole we just drive around those. However many people don't and break their alloys and suspensions. I was just illustrating how bad the roads can get. 5cm potholes or cracks are considered average. And I am more of an expert on Canada driving then 99% of people on this forum, that's a fact.

[RacerBice]

Well.....I know for a fact that RWD Beemers nowadays handle quite well in winter conditions, and surely that goes for modern M3's as well. It's just that you need to have ESP engaged, and regardless of that you won't be able to negoatiate basically any stretch of winter road as easily and quickly as in virtually any FWD or AWD car.

So summer is when Beemers normally excel. Or do they really? I read numerous comparisons where testers have favoured 130i's over S3's on the basis that it's a more entertaining car to drive, while still clocking the Beemer 1,5-2 secs per lap slower around regular race tracks. And that simply makes no sense to me. If I know that the car I'm driving is siginficantly slower than the competition, how on earth can I sit there and unreservedly enjoy the fun? If I had lost my mind completely and bought the 130i instead of my present S3, I would have felt sick every single time I spotted an S3 out in traffic. Because I'd have known that "f**k it, there goes a car that would leave me trailing in dust.......". And how fun is that?!

Mind you, it's not that the S3 is boring in any way. I am rather starting to appreciate that 4-wheel AWD spin with balanced power distribution and perfectly rounded turns is almost (not quite, but almost) as fun as traditional drifting. And a lot safer. And come winter time, the S3 simply rocks. Roads are quite slippery here in Sweden right now, and this is by far the most fun winter ride I've ever experienced.

So again, sheer speed is what it's all about, forget the rest. After all, a fast car is always fun, that's almost what you'd call a notorious circumstance. Like "water is wet"......or "the sky is blue" .........or "frogs have water-tight a**holes".

On the other hand, I don't agree that the new 135i Coupé is so horrendous (which seems to be a widespread opinion not only here but with people in common, including journalists). On the contrary, I think it's quite handsome, and decidedly more so than its hatchback sibling. First time I ever felt that I could actually live with a banglemobile.......

Those run flat tyres would be the first thing to go, though, and then I think you'd have resolved most of the handling issues. For instance, I've seen tests where they've compared two otherwise identical Z4's, one of which they had fitted with regular rubber rather than the stock run flat ones. And they said it was simply a different car. Faster, safer, better balanced.....more FUN! Which is something you won't have read too many times in Z4 tests, right?

RB

[RussianM3_dude]

Just because something is faster on paper, does not make it more fun. I still feel regret every time I pass an E46 M3.

[RacerBice]

Just because something is faster on paper, does not make it more fun. I still feel regret every time I pass an E46 M3.

OK, remember to wave when I look at (an increasingly smaller and smaller) you in my rear view mirrors......

:lovl:

[Leadfoot]

I still feel regret every time I pass an E46 M3.

You actually over-take the M3s.

I am amazing you wouldn't just lets the M3s win as you are such a fan of all things BMW. :hihi:

[RussianM3_dude]

No I meant just on the road, not racing.

[Leadfoot]

No I meant just on the road, not racing.


M3_dude, it was a joke.

Trade the RS4 in for an E46 M3 and will the surplus buy yourself a sense of humour. :lovl:

[QuattroFan]

I did not say that the M3 can survive a 20 cm pothole we just drive around those. However many people don't and break their alloys and suspensions. I was just illustrating how bad the roads can get. 5cm potholes or cracks are considered average. And I am more of an expert on Canada driving then 99% of people on this forum, that's a fact.

Well I guess I am the 1%.

Quebec does get some pretty harsh winter. I am on the east coast which is quite a bit milder but still get our share of winter weather. Like most of us clear thinking Canadians we leave our M3s with sport suspension and 19 inch alloys home when the weather gets bad enough for 20cm potholes. That is what a winter beater is for.:looking:

[RussianM3_dude]

M3_dude, it was a joke.

Trade the RS4 in for an E46 M3 and will the surplus buy yourself a sense of humour. :lovl:

I know, but I wasn't sure. Audi drivers are not known for humour.

[Leadfoot]

I know, but I wasn't sure. Audi drivers are not known for humour.

:brag: Actually that is true, it's BMW owners who have the best sense of humour.












:harass: Lets face it, driving what they do, they would have too. :hihi:

[RussianM3_dude]

Along with Triumph and MG fans.

[tvrfan]

In Autozeitung they compared BMW 135i and TT 3.2 S-Tronic

under 0-100km/h the Audi is faster than the 135i. time is 0-100 km/h 5.3 sec for audi and bmw. Elastizität is the same from 80-120 km/h and from 60-100 km/h.
from 0-180km/h 135i: 15.4 and Audi TT 3.2: 16.8 sec. on handling course the audi with 1 : 47,3 min and the BMW 1: 46,9 min.

the winner is the audi TT 3.2 S-Tronic. they said, the power from the TT feeling like a 300PS car not a 250PS car.

[Speedou]

Yeah, those numbers do look like 300hp car. Something wierd there...

[Leadfoot]

In Autozeitung they compared BMW 135i and TT 3.2 S-Tronic

under 0-100km/h the Audi is faster than the 135i. time is 0-100 km/h 5.3 sec for audi and bmw. Elastizität is the same from 80-120 km/h and from 60-100 km/h.
from 0-180km/h 135i: 15.4 and Audi TT 3.2: 16.8 sec. on handling course the audi with 1 : 47,3 min and the BMW 1: 46,9 min.

the winner is the audi TT 3.2 S-Tronic. they said, the power from the TT feeling like a 300PS car not a 250PS car.



Yeah, those numbers do look like 300hp car. Something wierd there...

Not really, 5.3s to 100km/h is the sort of times the TT3.2S-tronic gets to this speed, as for 180km/h in 16.8s well that's another 11.3s to cover the remaining 80km/h which again is to be expected and would put the TT on target for a 0-200km/h time of 22s which is about right when you factor in it's made 3 or 4 gear changes which on their own will shave around 1.2s off a manual's time.

It's the in-gear times which surprise me as well as the TT losing out in the handling course.

P.S.
Based on the above times for the TT3.2S-tronic I was guess the TT/S with an extra 30hp + 30ft/lbs and weighing 90kgs less should be capable of a 0-100km/h in 5.0s and the 100km/h in low 12s with the 200km/h covered in 19s (maybe lower if it has a 7sp S-tronic).

Heaven knows with a 350hp TT/RS weighing little more would be capable of. :hahahehe: Something late '08 it will be Z4M Coupe munching time.:hihi:

[crespo]

Racerbice, ever heard of the Mini Cooper S? TONS of fun to drive, and not even close to being the fastest car out there. I do not agree with your reasoning.

Using an Audi example, I'd rather own an A5 3.0TDI before the new M3 just because that 370lb/ft (or 400lb/ft according to a dyno) of torque is SOOO much more fun to have on tap than a gazillion rev V8 (to me, at least). The M3 is definitely faster, but I'm in love with that engine in the A5.

[RussianM3_dude]

M3 chassis is SOOOO ahead of the a5 it's not even funny. So even with the same engine, the M3 would be a lot more fun.

[Mockenrue]

Using an Audi example, I'd rather own an A5 3.0TDI before the new M3 just because that 370lb/ft (or 400lb/ft according to a dyno) of torque is SOOO much more fun to have on tap than a gazillion rev V8 (to me, at least). The M3 is definitely faster, but I'm in love with that engine in the A5.

I know what you mean. I have a B6 S4 at the moment and I love it to bits, but when it comes time to change next year I am seriously considering a 3.0TDi A5. Most S4 owners I know of have progressed to the B7 RS4, and having driven one it's not difficult to see why, but here in the UK they are not depreciating anywhere near quickly enough for me to be able to even remotely afford one.

The S5 is of course another possibility.

[Leadfoot]

I know what you mean. I have a B6 S4 at the moment and I love it to bits, but when it comes time to change next year I am seriously considering a 3.0TDi A5. Most S4 owners I know of have progressed to the B7 RS4, and having driven one it's not difficult to see why, but here in the UK they are not depreciating anywhere near quickly enough for me to be able to even remotely afford one.

The S5 is of course another possibility.

The S4 is a great car, I know as I had one too but compared to the RS4 to difference is unreal. The best way to describe it is the sense of confidence that the RS4 has over almost all cars when driving it quickly and that applies to the M3 as well.


M3 chassis is SOOOO ahead of the a5 it's not even funny. So even with the same engine, the M3 would be a lot more fun.

Like M3_dude says, the M3 will be more fun but compared to the S5 I doubt it will be that much quicker on a typical UK B-road. Which basically proves that Quattro is more efficient than rwd and don't require the same power to produce the same results.

[Speedou]

"Which basically proves that Quattro is more efficient than rwd and don't require the same power to produce the same results." Don't know how many times you have to say this :) But you are right, Quattro is easier to drive fast and that is why it is booring ;)

[Leadfoot]

"Which basically proves that Quattro is more efficient than rwd and don't require the same power to produce the same results." Don't know how many times you have to say this :) But you are right, Quattro is easier to drive fast and that is why it is booring ;)

If you find Quattro boring than you haven't learned how to drive with it properly. I recommend at icy airfield or a really slippery surface to get your skills hooked in and then try to use the awd advantage to your benefit. Never once would I ever have call Quattro boring but that me. :D

[RussianM3_dude]

Quattro is effective... it's boring however. Driving fast does not necessarily mean fun.

[Leadfoot]

Quattro is effective... it's boring however. Driving fast does not necessarily mean fun.

Without the skill to drive such a setup this is the sort of statement one would expect from you.:hihi:

[RussianM3_dude]

It takes no skill to drive Quattro fast. Slow in... fast out. Simple as that.

[Leadfoot]

It takes no skill to drive Quattro fast. Slow in... fast out. Simple as that.

That's how a non-skilled driver drives his quattro.:hihi:

[Rage]

That's how a non-skilled driver drives his quattro.:hihi:

Since i dont have a quattro - and partially out of interest - what is the skilled way of driving a quattro??

Im dead set on getting an RS5, but im inclined to believe most professional drivers/reviewers when they say the M3 is much more fun to drive then an RS4/S5.

[RussianM3_dude]

It depends on the car too... RS4 or scooby STI.

RS4 and presumably RS5 is slow in, fast out.

[Leadfoot]

Slow in, fast out is the quickest way to drive quattro cars but isn't the most fun. Unsettle the car to get the tail into play and ride on a four wheel drift is great fun.

[RussianM3_dude]

If you want fun and unsettled... Just get a car with RWD.

[Rage]

Slow in, fast out is the quickest way to drive quattro cars but isn't the most fun. Unsettle the car to get the tail into play and ride on a four wheel drift is great fun.

Like i said - I dont have a quattro....but is that the skilled way?

If you watch youtube videos of Tiff Needell trying to drift a TT or RS4 he finds it almost impossible (compared to a Z4 I think). In the end he manages it it but you could hardly call it a drift - more like the car swings out 90 degress unnaturally and then comes to a stop mid corner.

Not something that I would ever do outside of an empty track (and I mean empty of spectators too because it looked damnright stupid)

Seems to me bar the R8 - slow in and quick out is the only way in a quattro Audi.

[Erik]

BMW 135 doing the drift.

But he needed a new diff and a lot of water :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFCB2GvKrVc

[Leadfoot]

Since i dont have a quattro - and partially out of interest - what is the skilled way of driving a quattro??

Im dead set on getting an RS5, but im inclined to believe most professional drivers/reviewers when they say the M3 is much more fun to drive then an RS4/S5.

Listen, I respect Tiff, he is one hell of a driver but the facts are you need totally different skills to drift an awd car than rwd. His background is single seater racing.

Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwtF6wsycek) and you will see that drifting isn't rocket science when you know how.

[RacerBice]

Racerbice, ever heard of the Mini Cooper S? TONS of fun to drive, and not even close to being the fastest car out there. I do not agree with your reasoning.

Well, I only meant to say that if I am to choose between two more or less comparable "sports" cars, then I would prioritise speed as long as both alternatives are at least relatively entertaining. In other words, you have to compare apples to apples. I don't hesitate for a moment that the Cooper is more fun to drive than my S3 (or even the 130i, for that matter). It's just that for other reasons the Mini simply is not an alternative in the eyes of most potential S3/BMW130i/Golf R32 (etc) buyers.

And obviously there are a great number of cars out there that are considerably faster than e.g. an S3.

RB

PS. In addition to that, the Mini's interior is....well, fecking ugly. :doh:

[Speedou]

If you find Quattro boring than you haven't learned how to drive with it properly. I recommend at icy airfield or a really slippery surface to get your skills hooked in and then try to use the awd advantage to your benefit. Never once would I ever have call Quattro boring but that me. :D

Heh, you can ask anyone who I know how I can drive Quattro cars...problem is that I don't see it is fun way to drive. I have been driving more Quattro cars than anything else.

[Speedou]

Listen, I respect Tiff, he is one hell of a driver but the facts are you need totally different skills to drift an awd car than rwd. His background is single seater racing.

Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwtF6wsycek) and you will see that drifting isn't rocket science when you know how.

And you call that drifting? Tiff can also do that. It was all the way different kind of turn where they tried to drift the cars. If I remember right. (And same test).

Also adming that the fastest way to drive is slow in...is admitting the booring part of the car :)