Car&Driver- RS4 + M3 + C63 =RS4 Last!!!

[Rock]

Read it and...............?

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/14276/08-mercedes-benz-c63-amg-v-07-audi-rs-4-v-08-bmw-m3.html?al=98

[Audiphile]

Americans will never get Audi! What do you expect from Car and Driver? They worship BMW.

[MrBucket]

Sorta funny how they praise the m3s brakes when the RS4 has the best out of all of them, 8 piston brembo gran turismo 8

[chewym]

The M3 and C63 are brand new. The RS4 is now old and is basically out of production. But dynamically the M3 isn't too far aheard of the RS4 and some distance behind the C63, this is in acceleration. Now, I don't think a sedan M3 would have the same "pure" driving dynamics as the coupe and wouldn't be as good when compared to the two other sedans. But the C63 is quite the beast and most likely has the same power as the E63/S63.

[Sanjuro]

If you read the M3 write up you would think he didn't like it. It lacks laid back ability and torque. huh?

I guess it's hard to argue with Americans as they have such a great Motor Industry themselves.

[RussianM3_dude]

I thought they were fairly accurate. My main beef with the RS4... It's not a thriller. Ok, I admit, I can see how it can be a very satisfying car to some. The V8 has a fairly unique sound (though I am not a fan), the interior is the best, the buckets seats, looks great, great exterior colours, limited numbers thus more rare then the M3, it flatters the driver which is what some balding accountant from Zurich will appreciate, it's fairly comfortable, big boot, low depreciation etc... For me it's stupefyelingly dull. I want pizzazz, excitement, I want a car that is naughty not nice, not a cute girl next door but a coke addled blond stripper that loves threesomes and experimenting... You get the picture. RS4 is too Marks&Spencer for me.

[EKaru]

3rd place Audi RS4
http://i22.tinypic.com/jjqpat.jpg

2nd place Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG
http://i21.tinypic.com/2hi1ohe.jpg

1st place BMW M3
http://i21.tinypic.com/2m7x0rl.jpg

http://i22.tinypic.com/2hqtgs0.jpg
http://i24.tinypic.com/2j3pu1j.jpg
http://i24.tinypic.com/2mecwed.jpg
http://i20.tinypic.com/2s6ng4o.jpg

[Leadfoot]

The RS4 in this test is shockingly slow, the M3 is posting a quicker than usual time while the C63 is plain shocking. But on re-examining the price of each as tested you can see that the RS4 is over-loaded with extras which add to it's weight and dull performance and handling.

[RussianM3_dude]

Also, I think the RS4 has better steering feel then the M3. The BM is just plain rubbish in this regard. It SERIOUSLY detracts from the driving experience.

[cit1991]

Wait the the weight of the US-spec M3. There are none yet, so I'll bet this is a US RS4 vs. Euro M3. In Europe the M3 and RS4 are within a few kilos. And, who paid $82k for an RS4? Mine was 70+ttl.

I'll be shocked if you can get a US-spec M3 out the door for 70.

I didn't know ceramic disks were offered on the RS4 either.

I guess they had to get the review out for the ad revenue, so they chose to compare apples and oranges.

Typical of the "new" C&D.

[Mmm]

Americans will never get Audi! What do you expect from Car and Driver? They worship BMW.

Funny they been choosing Audi's for the last 4-5 years. Poor excuse.

[Mmm]

The RS4 in this test is shockingly slow, the M3 is posting a quicker than usual time while the C63 is plain shocking. But on re-examining the price of each as tested you can see that the RS4 is over-loaded with extras which add to it's weight and dull performance and handling.


What extra;s would that be. Anbd actually this RS4 was faster than the last one they tested. There's nothing wrong with it. When you take 3 cars to the track together & test on the same day, you can see how they run relative to each other.

[Rock]

News Flash!!

I know the RS4 is not a car designed for the strip but I have to be honest with you, I expected my American RS4 to be much faster.:cry:

I finally went to the strip last week and the best I could do was a 13.4@105mph. I don't mind the high et because I did not launch the car hard but I definitely expected 420HP to at least trap at 110mph.

Sorry but this article points to the fact that the RS4 needs a little more muscle and good diet............then it would be the perfect car. Oh, I forgot to add DSG.:hihi:

[RussianM3_dude]

I got faster times with my old US spec M3 with SMG (launch control is really weak). 13.25 at 107.

[audi_ch]

The RS4 in this test is shockingly slow, the M3 is posting a quicker than usual time while the C63 is plain shocking. But on re-examining the price of each as tested you can see that the RS4 is over-loaded with extras which add to it's weight and dull performance and handling.

And dont forgett rs4 was the only one one 19 " weehls. For my not understandable why the do not compare equel wheel size, spezially, all trhee cars are available on the same wheel

[Rock]

I got faster times with my old US spec M3 with SMG (launch control is really weak). 13.25 at 107.

Yeah my 02 M3 SMG car felt as fast if not faster than my RS4 but I'm not here to berate the car. Overall, I love it and I think Audi did a fine job building this car......I just expected it to be faster.

[Leadfoot]

What extra;s would that be. Anbd actually this RS4 was faster than the last one they tested. There's nothing wrong with it. When you take 3 cars to the track together & test on the same day, you can see how they run relative to each other.

My comment was only that I thought the RS4 seemed slow and heavy compared to the M3 and when I saw the amount of extras the RS4 must have had ($12K) this might explain why.

As I am not from the State I am unlikely to know what C&D have achieved with previous RS4 cars or M3s for that matter. It was only an opinion as to why the RS4 seemed to not perform like the European tests that's all.:cheers:

[Mmm]

It performs the same as it performs everywhere else in the world. Why are there always excuses.

[Leadfoot]

Well in any case that C63 is the animal I thought it will be and like I said it's performance is closer to the M5 than the other two so if I was in the market for a M5 I would serious consider everyone to check this car out first because it's way cheaper, almost as spacious and as you can see from the figures it's easily the match.

[MrBucket]

How did they make up that base price for the RS4? Its $66,910 on Audiusa.com

[Audiphile]

First of all, let's put this in perspective. The M3 and C63 are all NEW vehicles coming out about 2.5 years later the current RS4. As C&D put it, they had to benchmark the RS4 because it ate their previous generations (whom the RS4 competes with) for lunch. Their excuses at picking the RS4 third do not necessarily point the M3 and C63 as that much ahead of the game as they should be since they are all new. It just shows how remarkable the RS4 still is. It's the same when MB introduced the new S-Class to catch the A8L that had pulled quite ahead of its competition in majority of reviews including those of C&D. And even today, the S-Class barely wins the dual over the A8L (a three year old model) by something like a subjective point per the previous C&D and some other reviews. The simple point is that Audi has moved the game ahead quite a bit, and now everyone has to respond as does Audi when others do the same. Just look at the new RS6. And of course, waiting in the wings are the upcoming RS5 and the next generation RS4. Knock the RS4 all you want for third, but remember your words when the next RS4 and the new RS5 arrive. Who'll be third then?

[Mmm]

You want to compare the RS4 to the E46 M3? Are you serious? The E46 M3 engine was designed in 1999. It doesn have Fsi & the other technology the 2006 RS4 has. How can you compete against a car 7 years older? Especially one with 2 less cylinder & s full litre of capacity less.

LEt it go man. The Rs4 is for sale now in the US. It competes with these cars now.

[Leadfoot]

You want to compare the RS4 to the E46 M3? Are you serious? The E46 M3 engine was designed in 1999. It doesn have Fsi & the other technology the 2006 RS4 has. How can you compete against a car 7 years older? Especially one with 2 less cylinder & s full litre of capacity less.

LEt it go man. The Rs4 is for sale now in the US. It competes with these cars now.

I think what Audiphile was highlighting was the RS4 came out when the E46 M3 was still about and beat it easily, which it should do if you think about it, it has almost 70hp more and 8 cylinders. You are right to also highlight that the M3 3.2L is based on a 1999 design but you also have to remember that through those years the engine was evolving from a 3.0L to a 3.2L changing from an engine which started with 286hp to 321hp and finishing with 343hp. The RS4 engine is based on a design which is just as old as the M3 engine it was first seen in the A8 and arrived in the A4 chassis way back in 2003, which then brings us to the chassis of both the RS4 and the E92 M3, the Audi is using old 2002 technology compared to the M3 which was first released in coupe form in 2006.

I personally don't think the RS4 finishing third in this test as a bad result, it is up against much more modern designs, if anything it proves that the other two designs haven't moved the game forward that much and surely points to Audi once again leading the way when the RS4 and RS5 finally get released.

[Charles DLF]

Just a couple of thoughts on this sunday morning:

A) Who cares, do you like the RS4. Is it the best car for you? Then loose the paper, and have fun
B) The M3 is almost 2 years younger thant he RS4 so it would only be fair for it to be "better"
C) Every test i've read so far gave the RS4 the winning tittle, so why would C&D make any difference
D) C&D could be owned by BMW it would make no difference, they are sold to those guys.
E) GO DRIVE!!!!!! ;)

That's what i'm gonna do, not to bad weather out here today, triumph and i are going for a spin on back roads... :D

Cheers

Charles

[RussianM3_dude]

RS4 did not beat the E46 easily. It's barely faster. I got faster 1/4 mile on my E46 then som people in their RS4s.

[Leadfoot]

RS4 did not beat the E46 easily. It's barely faster. I got faster 1/4 mile on my E46 then som people in their RS4s.

The only E46 M3 tests I know of are the ones which were conducted in Germany shortly after it's launch. When you go to a dragstrip the extra traction afforded from awd becomes a disadvantage as the clutch usually starts to slip if you are to extreme so you actually have to start a lot easier than on a normal road surface unlike a high powered rwd car which can use this extra grippy surface to it's advantage.

On a normal road surface the RS4 will easily beat the old M3, no problem and you should know as much.

[Rock]

On a normal road surface the RS4 will easily beat the old M3, no problem and you should know as much.

Agreed!! The RS4 is superior to the E46 M3 in almost every way. Furthermore, as previously stated, several other publications have picked the RS4 over the new M3. It's a close contest and choosing the "best car" really does come down to a personal preference.:rs4addict

[Fab]

very bad RS4 time indeed. Do they know how to drive a quattro ?

Almost all reviews complain about the lack of traction of the M3 so how can it be that quick on C&S :confused:

[Leadfoot]

very bad RS4 time indeed. Do they know how to drive a quattro ?

Almost all reviews complain about the lack of traction of the M3 so how can it be that quick on C&S :confused:

I personally didn't find the new M3 lacking in traction, sure it's not as good as an awd car and you can't expect the same kind of launch in a standing start but it's bloody good when combined with M-dynamic mode.

[RussianM3_dude]

Well, EVO DID chose the E46 M3CS over the RS4 and I agree with them. I would take a regular E46 over the RS4 let alone the CS or CSL any day.

[Fab]

I personally would chose the RS4 once again 100x vs any past M3. The new one though looks like a good alternative.

Why don't you drive an M3 then ? Do you ?

[Sanjuro]

Well, EVO DID chose the E46 M3CS over the RS4 and I agree with them. I would take a regular E46 over the RS4 let alone the CS or CSL any day.

But you didn't - you bought an RS4 (with a heavy Navigation system). Given your love of pure motoring I find that inconsistent, stupid or just a plain untruth.

Do you think the opinion of someone who buys a car that he doesn't like and devotes the rest of his life to flaming Audi forums is useful? I'd think that's probably a fair point.

[RussianM3_dude]

I personally would chose the RS4 once again 100x vs any past M3. The new one though looks like a good alternative.

Why don't you drive an M3 then ? Do you ?

I don't like the new one.

[RussianM3_dude]

But you didn't - you bought an RS4 (with a heavy Navigation system). Given your love of pure motoring I find that inconsistent, stupid or just a plain untruth.

Do you think the opinion of someone who buys a car that he doesn't like and devotes the rest of his life to flaming Audi forums is useful? I'd think that's probably a fair point.

I did... and I regret it. Simple as that.

[Leadfoot]

I did... and I regret it. Simple as that.


I am still surprised you didn't like the new M3 because it's a much better drive than the old car. I reckon the price is your problem and not the car itself.;)

[AuditudeA642]

These RS4 Numbers Suck. Here are the numbers i got in August at Englishtown Raceway in New Jersey and Vag Com Performance Meter same day. 79 Degrees and 3/4 Tank of gas 93 Octane (US). Also went easy on the car. If it wasn't my car, had a 1/4 tank of gas for weight and got to beat on it i would def. get the car to 12.60-12.90's. These numbers are bs.

1/4 Time: 13.01 @109mph
0-60: 4.21 Seconds
0-100: 9.7 Seconds

[RussianM3_dude]

I am still surprised you didn't like the new M3 because it's a much better drive than the old car. I reckon the price is your problem and not the car itself.;)

Well, it's cheaper then the RS4. If somebody would offer to trade my RS4 for a new M3, I'll do it. However I don'y think I want to pay my own money for one.

[Mmm]

These RS4 Numbers Suck. Here are the numbers i got in August at Englishtown Raceway in New Jersey and Vag Com Performance Meter same day. 79 Degrees and 3/4 Tank of gas 93 Octane (US). Also went easy on the car. If it wasn't my car, had a 1/4 tank of gas for weight and got to beat on it i would def. get the car to 12.60-12.90's. These numbers are bs.

1/4 Time: 13.01 @109mph
0-60: 4.21 Seconds
0-100: 9.7 Seconds

The numbers are bullsh1t because you ran 0.1 faster somewhere else on a different day? C'mon man, each one of those cars could have gone faster under different conditions. Would have, could have shoul have. They tested the cars on the same day & those were the times. It's in line with their previous test of a different RS4. In fact it's faster.

You guys say these numbers are bull, but when the M3 runs poor numbers then those are legit. The C63 smoked the M3 so there's no favouritism towards BMW there. Car & Driver has been in business long enough & they have been choosing Audi's for the last 4-5 years. They chose the S4 over the E46 M3 & the C55.

[RussianM3_dude]

Even though the E46 M3 is WAY better then the underachieving and overpriced S4.

[Rutkowsky]

As you guys may know already, Gustav has done airfield races again today, so the new M3 is faster than CSL but i already knew that ;)

[RussianM3_dude]

The CSL can't launch as hard as it is not a manual and it has a lot less displacement.

[Leadfoot]

The CSL can't launch as hard as it is not a manual and it has a lot less displacement.

The inconsistentcy of these arguments, on one occasion someone will say that acceleration is down to power to weight and on another occasion it will be total power.

If it's the first one then surely the CSL should win as it has more power to weight than the new M3, but with the other it the new M3 which should win and does for that matter.;)

Which brings me to a previous argument, does anyone remember the CSL vs RS4 debate where BMW fans stated the CSL is quicker than the RS4 because it has more PTW than the RS4 but now that it's an M3 winning the race it's power that counts. Very consistent guys.:hihi:

Oh and by the way, the RS4 won that battle as well.


By RussianM3_dude
Even though the E46 M3 is WAY better then the underachieving and overpriced S4.

Sorry mate but that's a matter of opinion, I owned the S4 and I wouldn't have swapped it for E46 M3 never. The two cars are totally different in their approach and outlooks of what the customer requires, the M3 as you may point out is the driver's choice and the S4 is equally as quick but isn't as rewarding you may say, I say it's not as demanding to drive quickly.

Underachiever and overpriced, that's you opinion not mine.:p

[Sanjuro]

Sorry mate but that's a matter of opinion, I owned the S4 and I wouldn't have swapped it for E46 M3 never. The two cars are totally different in their approach and outlooks of what the customer requires, the M3 as you may point out is the driver's choice and the S4 is equally as quick but isn't as rewarding you may say, I say it's not as demanding to drive quickly.

Underachiever and overpriced, that's you opinion not mine.:p

I had an S4 also and thought it was a great car for life in the city on roads which aren't racetracks, wet days, snow, long drives and heavy traffic and it was great, plus it was never that slow - it was what, nearly 1 second faster than the M3 on the top gear track with Stig on the same day?

Could apply the same argument to a Lotus Elise or a Radical or a purpose built Formula x racing car but like the S4 and M3 there are differences as they are there to appeal to different people.

Saying it's no good because you don't like it is insecure

[RXBG]

If you read the M3 write up you would think he didn't like it. It lacks laid back ability and torque. huh?

I guess it's hard to argue with Americans as they have such a great Motor Industry themselves.

you guys need to watch some of the comments. i know the majority of users are EU but comments like these (and others above) are offensive. this is my personal opinion. so as mod, this is not a warning, but a reminder to show some respect to my country (and all others).

[Sanjuro]

you guys need to watch some of the comments. i know the majority of users are EU but comments like these (and others above) are offensive. this is my personal opinion. so as mod, this is not a warning, but a reminder to show some respect to my country (and all others).

Sorry, not meant to be offensive to americans as such, just the industry, given that it's had a bit of bother in keeping it financially viable together against the growth of the imported or foreign transplanted stuff against the growing issues coming from labour problems and so on.

I like Americans, but being Australian we generally end up in the same political boat as you and with the same RWD/Large V8 engine passion. Which tends to lend influence to discussions on RWD's relative advantages over anything else.

[Audiphile]

I think what Audiphile was highlighting was the RS4 came out when the E46 M3 was still about and beat it easily, which it should do if you think about it, it has almost 70hp more and 8 cylinders. You are right to also highlight that the M3 3.2L is based on a 1999 design but you also have to remember that through those years the engine was evolving from a 3.0L to a 3.2L changing from an engine which started with 286hp to 321hp and finishing with 343hp. The RS4 engine is based on a design which is just as old as the M3 engine it was first seen in the A8 and arrived in the A4 chassis way back in 2003, which then brings us to the chassis of both the RS4 and the E92 M3, the Audi is using old 2002 technology compared to the M3 which was first released in coupe form in 2006.

I personally don't think the RS4 finishing third in this test as a bad result, it is up against much more modern designs, if anything it proves that the other two designs haven't moved the game forward that much and surely points to Audi once again leading the way when the RS4 and RS5 finally get released.

Thanks Leadfoot, exactly the point I was trying to make. And the RS4 sedan is going out of production if it already hasn't as Audi prepares the next generation. These kind of juxtapositioning is what we all need to get used to as each premium marquee brings new models to challenge the competition and positions changes because of this. Still, the RS4 has brought the game forward as has the new RS6 and the R8. BMW and Mercedes-Benz can no longer assume any kind of edge. Although, I am bias towards Audi (that is why I come to this site, and I cannot understand some bloggers on here that should really go to other forums), Audi is putting out some amazing machines right now (S5 for example) finally paying tribute to its long motor sport heritage and its founder. Even the Lexus IS-F is getting some serious strong reviews.

[Rutkowsky]

here's some good tyre shredding action, by new M3 http://www.avto-magazin.si/novice/video_luka_marko_groselj_drifta_z_novim_bmw_m3-9308.aspx nice vid, enjoy

[Leadfoot]

Ruthowsky,

The guy driving that M3 is OK I suppose. ;)

[Rutkowsky]

good car control, definitely skilled driver :thumb:

[Leadfoot]

I know I was being sarcastic, but my point was that it's a lot easier to do such things in an open track, he should try doing it on a rally stage with a cliff face on one side and a rock side on the other.

That takes REAL skill. :bow: