First to 300 Mph?

[Bingocaller]

In your opinion who will be the first automaker to reach 300 Mph for a street legal production car?

Bugatti - Koenigsegg - SSC Ultimate Aero - Ultima - Mclaren/Mercedes Etc?

Or maybe it will be an outsider or maybe it will never happen?

What do you guys think?

[El_cucaracha]

as i know there is one "car" which aims 300ml/h, Dodge tomahawk concept......

[BroddvonBronto]

I don't know if there's a working prototype of this one, it'd be dope!!!

1939 Mercedes-Benz T-80 Weltrekordwagen: The T-80 was an attempt at breaking speed records and demonstrate German engineering supremacy. Officially backed by the Nazi regime, the car was never tested because of the outbreak of World War II in September of that same year. It was originally planned that the car would be driven on the straight Autobahn near Dessau in 1940 at projected speeds of 600 km/h (373 mph). To obtain such speeds, the T-80 utilized the largest Daimler-Benz aircraft engine in existence, the DB-603: a mammoth 44,522cc V12 that produced 3,000-horsepower. Ferdinand Porsche designed the T-80. It was sheer luck that the car survived World War II.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/SMALL_68.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_T80

[Bingocaller]

Remember street legal production car :) And I belive that the Tomahawk was meant to be a bike even though it has four wheels

[BroddvonBronto]

Remember street legal production car :) And I belive that the Tomahawk was meant to be a bike even though it has four wheels

you couldn't make a 300mph+ street legal production car, it would be quite stupid really. achieving top speed in a veyron can't be done in many places... if you want to survive

[LU-RS6]

you couldn't make a 300mph+ street legal production car, it would be quite stupid really. achieving top speed in a veyron can't be done in many places... if you want to survive

Jup... like Tiff said: "if one morning you fancy go and do 253 mph.......ya can't."

[Leadfoot]

I doubt there will be many cars achieving the Veyron's speed let alone the 300mph barrier. Sure that will be one-off that will reach it's top speed but the logics of producing a car capable of this will incur similar development costs of the Bugatti. In other words, total madness.

I reckon the 220mph barrier will be the normal limit for many a year to come.

[Bingocaller]

you couldn't make a 300mph+ street legal production car, it would be quite stupid really. achieving top speed in a veyron can't be done in many places... if you want to survive

The same thing was said of the Veyron when it first was announced - and look where we are now with a whole lot of contenders to beat the Veyron.

The whole thing about hypercars is that you have the ABILITY to go that fast if you want to - not that you NEED to go that fast every time you turn the key.

IMO there will always be a market for that slightly faster car.

[BroddvonBronto]

The same thing was said of the Veyron when it first was announced - and look where we are now with a whole lot of contenders to beat the Veyron.

The whole thing about hypercars is that you have the ABILITY to go that fast if you want to - not that you NEED to go that fast every time you turn the key.

IMO there will always be a market for that slightly faster car.

yes. but the market for seriously straight and long roads are being developed that fast. sure you can make a 300mph car, but were should you drive it? :vhmmm:

[Benman]

Never say never.

It may take 30-50 years to do it, but there will be a street legal car to crack the 300mph barrier.

I mean, 50 years ago, did people think there would be street legal 4 doors that could crack the 200mph barrier? And now we have AMG, RS, and M cars all ready to go...

Ben:addict:

[AndyBG]

480 km/h... ! WOW !

That is going to be interesting to try... :revs: :hihi:

[Bingocaller]

Never say never.

It may take 30-50 years to do it, but there will be a street legal car to crack the 300mph barrier.

I mean, 50 years ago, did people think there would be street legal 4 doors that could crack the 200mph barrier? And now we have AMG, RS, and M cars all ready to go...

Ben:addict:

Exactly!

[El_cucaracha]

what about audi R-zero... in some sources it is written that it will be able to do 286ml/h... it is not even a concept car but for me it sounds possible...

[Mr Balsen]

it take 100hp to go from 400 to 408 km/h for the Bugatti Veyron....

I can't imagine how much power to go to 480 km/h. Except car with a regular engine have done it already at Bonneville many many times.

Frederic

[Benman]

it take 100hp to go from 400 to 408 km/h for the Bugatti Veyron....



Very true. But that is also because it is a big, fat, heavy pig with poor aerodynamics.

Imagine how much extra hp the McLaren F1 would have needed... or a Zonda Z...

The car that finally crushes the 300mph barrier (which I expect to see well within my lifetime) will weight less than 3,000lbs (hopefully @2,000lbs) and have far superior aerodynamics compared to the Bugatti.

You heard it here first. ;) :D

Ben:addict:

[Mr Balsen]

Very true. But that is also because it is a big, fat, heavy pig with poor aerodynamics.

Imagine how much extra hp the McLaren F1 would have needed... or a Zonda Z...



The problem is that a monster engine needs a monster gearbox, drivetrain, tires an so on. McLaren F1 will never ever support 1000 hp. The buhatti Veyron has 45 liters of oil ! ! ! Imagine the tank, the pumps and so on. More power will be more technical challenge. The car in no way will be like a Pagani or a Zonda.

I had the chance to seat as passenger in those three cars: Bugatti, McLaren and Zonda. Bugatti is your most confortable leather seat from your living room on a rocket. McLaren and Pagani are much more sport oriented, less confortable.

Frederic

[Benman]

Frederic,

You make great points, but we are assuming the car will have to have a huge heavy motor, tranny, etc.

Take the F1 cars. Back in the day, they had tiny 1 liter engines with gigantic turbos approaching 1500hp! Yes, they had insane turbo lag, and they would hardly be "drivable" by average people, but still, these things had 1500hp and weighed less than 1500lbs...

I'm saying that a compromise will be made. I'd think something more like a TTV12 with less than 4 liters using high reving current day F1/motorcycle technology.

There are a bunch of guys on the motorcycle (crotch rockets) forums that go the turbo route. My commuter (CBR600RR) weights 405lbs wet, yet puts 108hp to the wheels: 3.75lbs for every hp. With a fully suited rider (175lbs) that drops to 5.37lbs for every hp. But then the turbos... Guys are getting 150+ to the wheels out of a tiny 600cc motor... this is insane.

Liter bikes also are being turbo'd, but the favorite is the Busa and Kawi 14oocc motors. Those guys can get 250hp to the wheels out of a 1400cc motor, again, just crazy. True, this greatly raises the maintenance levels, but nothing more than a Ferrari. There are already turbo'd V8s based on two Busa motors (2.8L) that can put down well over 400hp, and this is modern tech.

I'm not saying this will happen quickly, or cheaply, just saying that if F1 could have 1500hp cars that weighed the same back in day (old tech), than 50 years on, something truely amazing will be available. Would I buy it? No. Will someone? Yes. There will always be Jay Lenos out there with gobs and gobs of money that desire something truely special. And in this day and age of ho hum 200 mph cars, and especial ho hum 40 or 50 years on, what would be more special (read absurd) than a 300 mph car.

Just saying...

Ben:addict:

PS just realized I never answered the original question, who will be first?

Bugatti or RUF, can't decide which. :D

[Mr Balsen]

Ben,

The formula 1 back then were 1,5l engine and were running on 80% toluene, 20% gazoline ! ! ! But they never reached 480 km/h...

Over 400 km/h is a complete different world in term of aerodynamic. The effort to move a car a such speed is beyond belief, because of aerodynamic. Problems are coming not when you want to do it once. this is Bonneville approach. But when you want this car to be driveable everyday in the streets at much lower speed as well. Because you need a car designed for top speed and cruising in town. And it's a whole different game to do both for the same car. Bugatti Veyron is driveable like a NSX in town. It is very very confortable and interior is exceptionnaly well crafted. Formula 1 car are not.

Our engines as of today might not be the best approach either. Electricity might be a much better solution. The french high speed train is electric. First prototype were not but they never worked properly. unreliable, too much heat, too heavy and so on.

Frederic

[Leadfoot]

Frederic,

You hit the nail on the head, aerodynamic are the real problem here. Up to 220mph aerodynamic though playing a big role, they are nothing like what they are like for 250mph. Engine outputs needed will be huge, much like the Bugatti, take the Caparo F1 it weighs little over 500kgs and have over 500hp but even with it's least down force the car is only capable of just over 200mph.

It will be achieved in the future but it's will be a long time coming.

[frikktion]

you dont think that the top speed has something to do with the poor amount of weight on that car?

[Benman]

Our engines as of today might not be the best approach either. Electricity might be a much better solution.



Frederic, I agree that electric motors will be where it's at. The even faster China bullet train is also electric and I thought I remember hearing it does @180mph. True, that is far south of the big 300mph, but the point is that they can get something so huge to move that quick (try stopping it though ;)) with elec (high torque) motors.

Electric will be the way to go. Give it @40-50 years of improvements...

Ben:addict:

[Bingocaller]

Electric will be the way to go. Give it @40-50 years of improvements...

Ben:addict:

Yes because at that time there will be no more oil :mech:

[Benman]

Yes because at that time there will be no more oil :mech:


I believe that statement to be accurate.

Ben

[Mr Balsen]

Ben,

The french TGV has done 515 km/h in 1990, and then 574 km/h on April 3rd 2007 (for my birthday !). Other trains might be faster but they don't have wheels. It could be an issue for a car !

Frederic

[Bingocaller]

Ben,

The french TGV has done 515 km/h in 1990, and then 574 km/h on April 3rd 2007 (for my birthday !). Other trains might be faster but they don't have wheels. It could be an issue for a car !

Frederic

Good piont Frederic! Have even thought of that!

The TrustSSC runs on metal wheels - the only material that could cope with the forces in motion when you go supersonic

[RussianM3_dude]

Yes because at that time there will be no more oil :mech:


There is a LOT of oil still left. In 19th century people were speculating that we were running out of coal and that cities in the mid 20th century would be covered knee-deep in horse crap.

[Leadfoot]

There is a LOT of oil still left. In 19th century people were speculating that we were running out of coal and that cities in the mid 20th century would be covered knee-deep in horse crap.

No horse crap, but bull shit.:hihi:

[RussianM3_dude]

No, horse crap, because people calculated that with the increase in affluence and the amount of people who could afford a horse for personal transportation... You get the picture.

[Mr Balsen]

in the late 40', CEO of IBM said that one day Computer will be less than 1 ton...

Frederic

[Leadfoot]

in the late 40', CEO of IBM said that one day Computer will be less than 1 ton...

Frederic

And he was only slighty out. ;)

[Bingocaller]

So the question is is it going to be lightweight (Caparo style) or heavier and more luxurious (Veyron style)?

[Z07]

Very true. But that is also because it is a big, fat, heavy pig with poor aerodynamics.

Imagine how much extra hp the McLaren F1 would have needed... or a Zonda Z...

The car that finally crushes the 300mph barrier (which I expect to see well within my lifetime) will weight less than 3,000lbs (hopefully @2,000lbs) and have far superior aerodynamics compared to the Bugatti.

You heard it here first. ;) :D

Ben:addict:

You may want to rethink that. The heavier a car is, the less aerodynamic downforce it needs and hence the less downforce induced drag it suffers. An '80s Pontiac Firebird broke 300mph at Bonneville. It weighed 3 tons.

[Benman]

Ben,

and then 574 km/h on April 3rd 2007 (for my birthday !).

Frederic

Insane. Thanks as I did not know that Frederic.

So, as Bingocaller asks, lightweight or heavier?

Ben:addict: