BMW e90 M3 CSL

[AndyBG]

BMW is preparing it's, as they like to say, ''real thing'' M3...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/auto_-_produkte/hxcms_article_506800_13987.hbs

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/fotos/foto-shows/erlkoenige/mpsfshw_show_502632_13999.hbs?backtrack=%2Fnews%2F auto_-_produkte%2Fhxcms_article_506800_13987.hbs&

[Ruergard]

A lot fast then they first thought of, the "normal" M3 didn't get the welcomeparty as they wanted...

As an other car did! :thumb:

[Leadfoot]

If the CSL arrivals last 2008 then expect the RS5 to follow along shortly afterwards.

[RussianM3_dude]

BMW basically wants the regular M3 to be S5 competition I guess and the CSL to tackle the RS models. Beat Audi with lower weight and more finesse rather then brute strength.

[42TT]

BMW wants the M3 to be compared against S5?

I highly doubt that maybe its what they are saying now in retro spect and are rushing the M3-CSL to production to recover ground and why would M-Division want to be compared against what Audi class as competition to the normal BMW models if this is true is doesnt say much about M-Division or BMW in general


42tt

[RussianM3_dude]

Because "normal" BMW models are much cheaper. A 335 costs as much as the A4 3.2. In North America, M3 was always S4 competition as far back as I remember.

[tazsura]

Because "normal" BMW models are much cheaper. A 335 costs as much as the A4 3.2. In North America, M3 was always S4 competition as far back as I remember.


Er....So why does the current M3 match the RS4 on price? Surely this means BMW see the RS4 as competiton for the M3....dunnit?

Taz :alig:

[42TT]

Taz - You beat me too it.

42tt

[RussianM3_dude]

Well, it's more kinda inbetween the S4 and RS4.

[tazsura]

Well, it's more kinda inbetween the S4 and RS4.

Eh? Wotever dude...:vhmmm:

I see reason has no sense with you.

Taz :boring:

[tazsura]

Taz - You beat me too it.

42tt

Great minds :thumb:

Taz :asian:

[nene]

I like the new M3. In CSL form, well, even better.
How do we know what is competing with what anymore? Purely based on HP numbers? I guess size has taken a backseat as part of the measuring stick.

[Leadfoot]

How could anyone class the E92 M3 as a competitor to the S5, sure previously the S4 and M3 knocked heads but this time round there is a £10K difference in price and a 60hp difference in power output. The M3 is squarely targeting the RS4 and C63 as it's main rivals and if I am correct in what I was told, the M3 will continue to be a rival to the RS4 but not the RS5 which looks to be positioning itself against the M3 CSL.

[tazsura]

I really can't believe people are questioning the rivalry between the RS4 and M3. It's soo abundently clear it's untrue. Same price, same power, same engine config.

I really do wonder what is happening to this forum.

Taz :cry:

[Rutkowsky]

and CSL is out by sept. 08, apparently and i wonder how hardcore the new one will be. Expect the power to come close to 470 bhp, so some source tells me anyway

[Leadfoot]

and CSL is out by sept. 08, apparently and i wonder how hardcore the new one will be. Expect the power to come close to 470 bhp, so some source tells me anyway

To achieve this from a 4 Litre engine is a tall order even for BMW, unless it is to get forced induction. They might be enlarging the engine but I reckon the CSL if it keeps the same capacity will produce no more than 440~450hp max.

Now if the CSL has 440hp then expect the RS5 to have 470~480hp to be able to match it's performance based on the fact that it will be at least 130~160Kgs heavier. But if the CSL get 470hp then the RS5 will break the magic 500hp easy and expect Bi-turbos for sure.

[42TT]

On a technical point the RS4 engine runs a piston speed of 25.2m/s (highest in production engine) while the M3 runs ~21m/s the CSL will most likely make its extra HP by revving harder, but the torque wont be anything to write home about unlike the RS5 which seems will get a FSI version of the current RS6 V8TT so i guess 480hp/600nm seems like realistic and i put my money on the CSL getting used to the rear of the Audi in a straigh line and with QTV around corners also :thumb:

42tt

[RussianM3_dude]

Aaaa, that's why the RS4 revs fairly slowly, too much stroke.

[42TT]

Yes and the reason the M3 makes little torque is because it has the opposite problem, not enough stroke ;)

42tt

[RussianM3_dude]

Too much stroking the shaft can lead to explosive results, I hope the new CSL avoids this.

[42TT]

RussianM3 - Well based on BMW's problem with the M5/M6 V10 and oil consumption Audi have run the Stroke v Bore design the RS4 uses for many years A6 V8, S6, S8 and RS6 and i am yet to hear of any failures or issue's with the engine so engineering skills come into play and Audi is among the best in the world in this respect.

The new M3 is yet to be tested so time will tell if the M5/M6 V10 issues show up in the M3 engine ;)

But I think it is obvious my allegiance lies with Audi and yours with BMW so I will leave this discussion to others as we can continully go back and forth

Cheers,
42tt

[Mmm]

Yes and the reason the M3 makes little torque is because it has the opposite problem, not enough stroke ;)

42tt

The M3 makes the same torque as the RS4 on the wheels:

http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=769
http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=768

[Leadfoot]

Too much stroking the shaft can lead to explosive results, I hope the new CSL avoids this.

I reckon this has been your problem.:hihi:

[RussianM3_dude]

Not enough stroking means the engine is nervous and agitated, thus not pulling at all.

[Leadfoot]

RussianM3_dude, you still didn't get what I meant.

I think you have been stroking your shaft too much.

Mmm,

I think by now you will know my opinions on dyno reading but look again at the RS4 chart, things start to go astray after 6000rpm in both power and torque, up to this point it shadows the M3 figures quite closely. This is the awd effect I am talking about.

[RussianM3_dude]

Man... do I have to put a smiley face after each joke I make. Jeez...

[Mmm]

This is the awd effect I am talking about.

No it's not. The new S3 & the old 5 cylinder S2, S4 & S6 make the rated power on the dynos. Look at the S3 on that website. It has a 100% rating for wheel power vs engine power. Lots of people dynoing the new S3 are also finding that it makes the power.

Don't blame the dyno for an underperforming engine. My father always said, "Trust your tools".

RS4 vs 2 different S3's on same dyno:

http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=769
http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=735
http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=733

[Leadfoot]

The S3 in normal use runs 95/5 power shift so on a dyno it's performing like a fwd car and as it's turboed the quoted power is exactly less than it really makes.

The real Quattro doesn't perform the same way and this is the reason why it's true power figures are elusive.

I don't blame the dyno, it's a great tool for certain applications and the RS4 isn't an underpowered engine, if this was the case then it would be miles slower than the equally powered M3 with it's 150Kgs weight advantage but the fact are the M3 is only 0.3s quicker to 150mph. Does this sound like an under performing engine to you. :eye:

Don't trust dyno figures when it comes to Quattro. :nono:

[Mmm]

Don't trust dyno figures when it comes to Quattro. :nono:

I have friends with the 5 cylinder Torsen Audi's & they make the rated power on the wheels on the same dyno where RS4's don't. ITs not the quattro. Its the car.

[Leadfoot]

It not the Dyno and it not the Car it's the fact that the S2 and S4 both were turboed and like the S3 made more than the quoted figure. In fact Top Gear years ago tested both the M3 of the time and the S4 Bi-turbo over a mile straight and both were within 1 mph of each other, yet the BMW had a much higher quoted power and was lighter.

But your are answering as to why a RS4 will match the equally powered M3 in acceleration which is lighter if it is indeed so underpowered compared to it's quoted figures, because I can't explain it based on your opinion.

Can you?

[42TT]

Leadfoot - Sad to see how many people use dyno's for numbers. They are used to determine whether a change has had a positive/negative affect on performance one a basline is set.

Using a calulation to determine Engine Power/Torque from Wheel Power/Torque is like pissing in the wind.

42tt

[skratch]

BMW holds the record for piston speeds,just because the rs4 in its stock rev limit is faster,dosnt mean it can out run the S54.I have personally witnessed an s54 rev to over 9,300 rpms.The rs4 engine would end up in peices if you tried that.

There isnt an engine yet to come close to the s54.

Just for gigles lets see how fast an s54 is running at at say 9,000rpm(they are plenty of people revving them that high)

91x9,000x2/60,000=27.3 m/s

at 9,300 rpms its @28.2

and that is how BMW is making almost the same torque with its s54 than with the new V8.The csl was making 273ft lbs with only 3.2l That is more torque/l than even the new zo6

[Leadfoot]

BMW holds the record for piston speeds,just because the rs4 in its stock rev limit is faster,dosnt mean it can out run the S54.I have personally witnessed an s54 rev to over 9,300 rpms.The rs4 engine would end up in peices if you tried that.

There isnt an engine yet to come close to the s54.

Just for gigles lets see how fast an s54 is running at at say 9,000rpm(they are plenty of people revving them that high)

91x9,000x2/60,000=27.3 m/s

at 9,300 rpms its @28.2

and that is how BMW is making almost the same torque with its s54 than with the new V8.The csl was making 273ft lbs with only 3.2l That is more torque/l than even the new zo6

I would agree that in it's day the s54 was quite possibly one of the greatest engines, but sadly it had reached the end of it's usefulness for competing against the influx of v8 engines being used by it's rivals.

You reckon a RS4 engine couldn't have revved to over 9000rpm, based on what. The engine was set-up to rev to this limit because they wanted a more balance torque vs power output. I had a Escort Mk2 which could rev to over 9000rpm but the standard version would run out of puff at little over 6000rpm.

[skratch]

The rs4 V8 is no joke,I just havnt seen anyone really spin the thing up north of 9k yet,not saying its not impossible but a v8 is not nearly as ballanced as a inline 6 and with a very agressive bore and stroke will be really hard for it to hold together.

the M3 was making power past 9k and I think Mpilot with his delage stage 3 na setup made 364whp at 9,000 rpms.

I don't see the rs4 breathing that well since its stock power band stops to build power after 8k and has its max hp at 7800 or so

[42TT]

the tune pulls out timing past that point at 7800rpm so power tapers off to stop it hitting the limiter under increased loads, with a tune it will make power until 9000rpm

[skratch]

the tune pulls out timing past that point at 7800rpm so power tapers off to stop it hitting the limiter under increased loads, with a tune it will make power until 9000rpm

exactly my point,that is why they are pulling timing up top,its a V8 and has an agressive bore and stroke.What would be the point of spinning a rs4 to 9k if you coulnt make any power up there without the fear of punching a hole in the block.

The s54M3 gains nothing from a port and polish of the heads and the exh ports are huge.The volumetric efficiency on the s54 is unreal.That is also the reason that an s54 can max out a a gt35r turbo at 18psi and that same turbo would max out on a supra at around 33 psi(and make the same power)the s54 is flowing so much more volume threw it.

I want to see BMW slap 2 s54s together and add direct injection,up the compression to 12.5 and bang out a 750hp killer V12

basically remake the mclaren F1 engine and use 2 S54s instead of putting 2 old e36 3.2 evo engines together like they did in the past.

[Leadfoot]

the tune pulls out timing past that point at 7800rpm so power tapers off to stop it hitting the limiter under increased loads, with a tune it will make power until 9000rpm

Exactly, Audi chose to stop the peak power at 7800rpm to the benefit of torque.

If they had only been caring about peak revs and maximum power than we would have ended up with an engine like an M3.:rolleyes: