Auto Zeitung comparison-BMW M3 vs. Audi R8 vs. C06

[KresoF1]

Numbers...

Audi R8

0-100km/h: 4.4s
0-160km/h:10.3s
0-200km/h:15.2s
Weight: 1661kg(full tank)
Track time: 1.39,8min

BMW M3

0-100km/h: 4.8s
0-160km/h:10.3s
0-200km/h:15.2s
Weight: 1626kg
Track Time: 1.40,1min

Vette C06

0-100km/h: 4.8s
0-160km/h:10.1s
0-200km/h:15.6s
Weight: 1.44,2min

Now, few comments-tires on R8 were Pirelli P Zero The Hero in R8 specs version and on M3 were new Michelin Pilot Sport Cup +(new version-first cars to receive it are new M3 and 997 GT2, spces for both cars are little bit different but, new Cup + offers better street use and wet roadholding with excellent track potential). Both Hero's and Cup's + are current SOTA in tires development.

AZ stuff claimed that M3 engine is actually better then R8's and that is is currently the best German V8 in production(sorry C63...).

19" wheels were on both R8 and M3.

In current issue German Autostrassenverkher also testes R8, M3 and 997 GT3 on German race track Spreewaldring(more on http://www.spreewaldring.de/) and on this 2.7km track resluts were:

R8 1.37,5min
M3 1.39,2min
997GT3 1.37,8min

Track was partially wet...

[artur777]

Very good results for M3.
It is condierably cheaper and not that bad-performer!

[Mori]

Hmm I would take either one of those cars as a weekend fun car, the P-car would be the first choice though.

[Erik]

Have a look at what tires the M3 had to use ;)

[Leadfoot]

If you are interested in a cheaper semi-trackday car which will be bags of fun at the track then the M3 will be a hard choice to ignore but if you think that the M3 is as capable as the R8 in all disciplines then you will be sadly mistaken, it may be plenty quick enough on the track but the R8 will destroy it on the road and on any track which happens to be damp.

P.S.

No doubt Michelin will be developing Pilot Sport Cup tyres for the R8 so expect the gap to increase again.

[Ruergard]

If you are interested in a cheaper semi-trackday car which will be bags of fun at the track then the M3 will be a hard choice to ignore but if you think that the M3 is as capable as the R8 in all disciplines then you will be sadly mistaken, it may be plenty quick enough on the track but the R8 will destroy it on the road and on any track which happens to be damp.

P.S.

No doubt Michelin will be developing Pilot Sport Cup tyres for the R8 so expect the gap to increase again.

Amen! Give the R8 the same tires and see who's the daddy after that! :king:

[RussianM3_dude]

I don't see what's so special about the RS4 engine. Ok I whole-heartedly commend Audi for growing some danglies and actually meeting BMW head on with a NA engine (witness how they chickened out with the RS6). However it's not a very good engine unless you look at the spec. When I read the brochure, I was like "Wow, off the hizzle fo' shizzle!!!" but in real life it's just not that special except for the fact that it revs like no Audi before it.

The main problem is that it is very linear and one-dimensional. I see no difference in sound or delivery between 5 and 8250 rpm which means that I often shift too early or bounce of the limiter. The engine just doesn't push you to squeeze out every rev like the E46 M3 or a I4 sport bike. Also, there is not that much throttle response, not even close to something like the Ferrari 4.3 or the BMW 3.2 . Also, the direct injection whine just totally ruins the sound. It is weird, on some days I almost don't hear it and only the engine sound, other days their is so much whine, the engine sounds like a blender, complete crock.

It's not an engine with a lot of character. Very competent, but it leaves me cold. I heard the old Arese Alfa GTA V6... now THAT is how an engine should sound and feel. I can only imagine if Alfa had the cash to push it to 100hp/liter.

As for the R8... Audi definetly benefits from lowered expectations and the fact that it's cars are much easier to squeeze performance out of. I think from next year, once Porsche updates their engines... Game over, 911 will be back on top.

[Ruergard]

Ok I whole-heartedly commend Audi for growing some danglies and actually meeting BMW head on with a NA engine (witness how they chickened out with the RS6).

Chickened out? You havn't noticed that there are some plusses with a turbocharged engine that a NA engine can't achieve? :)

Things like 650nm of torque between 1500 and 6250 rpm? :hihi:

[Mmm]

Chickened out? You havn't noticed that there are some plusses with a turbocharged engine that a NA engine can't achieve? :)

Things like 650nm of torque between 1500 and 6250 rpm? :hihi:

Yeah & that translates to 0-200 in 14.9. With 580hp.

[Ruergard]

Yeah & that translates to 0-200 in 14.9. With 580hp.

I havn't talked anything about performancefigures, but if you wan't to take it to that. Take an M5 and a RS6 out on a road that isnt dead straight, not completely dry.. or why not at wintertime? :)

[Leadfoot]

I have never before see the influx of BMW disruptors as there has been, since finally Audi have stepped out of the shadow of BMW and putting them in to the shade. Since the RS4 was introduced small voices started to appear which have grown steadily with the R8 and now RS6.

Clearly they don't like their beloved BMW not being top dog.:hihi:

[Mori]

Lets face it - everyone picks a car for some reason or other.

I chose the RS4 because:
- I need the Avant
- I want Quattro (saved my life once)
- I driver 30-40K km per year on 2nd grade roads (all year!) and I need the added safety in the snow of awd
- the M5 wasn't loud enough (and the touring wasn't even available then) ;) oh I don't like the styling either
- I love Audi quality inside and out and relative problemless usability

Now - I'm sure people who pick M3s have different reasons - they want a coupe, they like the BMW styling etc.

Quite frankly I don't care which -car- is faster - the driver is what makes the difference anyway. Good bragging rights though. ;)

[Mmm]

I havn't talked anything about performancefigures, but if you wan't to take it to that. Take an M5 and a RS6 out on a road that isnt dead straight, not completely dry.. or why not at wintertime? :)

Who races in imperfect conditions, really? Is it worth it? And if you win what do you prove? That your car is the imperfect weather champion? Anything can happen in imperfect conditions in any car.

[Leadfoot]

Who races in imperfect conditions, really? Is it worth it? And if you win what do you prove? That your car is the imperfect weather champion? Anything can happen in imperfect conditions in any car.

Who races in imperfect conditions?:vhmmm:

Lets see now, there F1 racing drivers, formula 2/3/4 in fact every form of single seater cars have from time to time race in imperfect conditions. Then there is rally drivers, the really skilled drivers :hahahehe: which almost always race in these conditions, I wonder what type of system their cars use.:vhmmm:

Karting, touring cars, in fact the list goes on and on.

Sadly this is the sort of reply one expects from a person who prefers to drive a rwd car. The last time I looked the weather wasn't always perfect but clearly it's the only time you must be capable of racing so best only race during sunny spells and a bone dry track. :D

But sure anything can happen in imperfect conditions but it seems to always happen to rwd cars so why should we be concerned with that. ;)

P.S.
With the exception of rallying, all of the other forms of motorsport use only rwd and awd is banned. Quite possibly for the very reason that it rains when one least expects it or wants it and an awd set-up would have a very unfair advantage.

With regarding to the recent tests of the M3 vs the R8 and also the S5 vs the 335i even if both could only match the times of their respective rivals in the dry, the very fact that is anything other than perfect conditions they are able to hold a huge advantage makes then the superior set-up for an everyday car required to be driven 365 days of the year.

[RussianM3_dude]

No AWD is banned because it is boring and is a substitute for driver skill. Also, who drives fast in imperfect conditions anyway??????

[Leadfoot]

Anyone who have to listen to pace-notes. ;)

Or had you forgot that and it clear you have never tried or watch a rally as from the driver's seat there is nothing more exciting.

But once again the sort of reply expected from your kind. :boring:

[RussianM3_dude]

No rally is different, I love it too. However I drive on surfaced roads 99.99% of the time.

[Ruergard]

Who races in imperfect conditions, really? Is it worth it? And if you win what do you prove? That your car is the imperfect weather champion? Anything can happen in imperfect conditions in any car.

Well, I like to drive my cars every day of the year. No matter of the weather, it both rains and snows a lot up here. But with Quattro that's not really a big problem...

"Imperfect weather champion"
No that the car I've choosed will perform very, very good in both good and bad conditions! :rs6kiss:



Clearly they don't like their beloved BMW not being top dog.:hihi:

Agree, there's a lot of talk going on nowtimes! :thumb:



Maybe we're going a bit to much offtopic now btw.

[Mmm]

Yeah sure racing drivers race in imperfect conditions. I'm talking on the road. With other people. And pedestrians. And uncontrolled enviroment. Who races there with their personal car on the road.

IF the conditions are good, visibilty is great, no danger to others, then yeah it's on. But in imperfect conditions any car including 4WD can be in danger. 4WD cannot save you from lots of hazards that could happen on the road. It's simply not worth it to race unless all is good. I'm sure you know even a 4WD car has much longer stopping distances in the wet. And if you hit a puddle deep enough you will aquaplane in any car. Or if it rains for a few days & oil & water start mixing in the puddles at the long run-offs at the bottom of a hill. 4WD isn't going to help you if you hit a puddle of oil. Or a patch of black ice. You get my drift (excuse the pun)? Or the fact that visibility in not that good in the rain. You may not see someone or someone may not see you coming at 100mph in your quattro in the fast lane. Lots of older cars have steam on the windscreen or poor wipers, & we share the road with these guys.

Why not save it for a dry day to prove who's the man? I wouldn't race in the wet no matter what car I'm driving. There's a time & place for everything. It might be good to brag in a pub to your buddies that your car is the wet weather champion, but normal people settle down for a relaxed cruise home in the wet & fight another day.

And 4WD has no effect on safety in the wet. In an emergency you are on the brakes & hence 4WD has no advantage.

[RussianM3_dude]

So true. The only thing AWD is good for, is putting down power when exiting a corner. That's it. The rest is down to the tires. I am sure you all remmeber that article where the M3 beat an S4 in the wet.

[Leadfoot]

Sorry but it is total BS that awd doesn't benefit the driver when conditions turn for the worse. I know from experience of the benefits and as conditions worsen the advantage multiple ten fold.

The only true thing that Mmm said was awd has no advantage when braking, but as for everything else awd benefits are well documented and are there to be seen at every rally you care to watch.

It just sad that you only argument against it is that you don't race on the road when the weather turns bad, sorry boys but you should never race on the road regardless of the car you are in. But then again this isn't the point we have been making when we say Quattro is the better option for road use and in any case you lot aren't wanting to listen anyway.

[Mmm]

4WD has NO ADVANTAGE when you aren't on the throttle. ZERO. You are not sending power to any wheels. So if you lift when a truck jack-knifes in front of you, then swerve left & right to avoid the obstacle your manouevre is dependant on the tyres, your stability control system, the weight & weight distribution of your car & the front end not understeering, the balance, chassis, ride height, CoG, polar moment of inertia, etc

There are so many factors that influence whether you will avoid the obstacle & whether your drivetrain accepts power to 4 wheels or 2 makes ZERO difference as you ARE OFF THE THROTTLE. In fact I could argue that a front heavier car with more mass will be MORE DANGEROUS in a wet avoidance manouevre than a more agile, better balanced RWD that is less prone to understeer.

But of course if you have the time & space to power out of an emergency then 4WD may well help. But in 99% of emergencies there is no time nor is there the space.

But hey Leadie, if you want to race with the rain pouring down on your windscreen then 4WD rox!

[Leadfoot]

I can tell you this almost all drivers in a situation like an accident react the way they should do, but I didn't think this was what we were talking about, I thought it was whether awd has any advantage when conditions worsen and plainly it does.

Am I wrong when I say if an Quattro car can match it's rwd counterpart on a dry track then it's the better set-up because it's got the added advantage in adverse conditions being to one which is able to master all type of surfaces and conditions.

[Mmm]

I thought it was whether awd has any advantage when conditions worsen and plainly it does.


You should be more specific. AWD doesn indeed have an advantage at APPLYING POWER when conditions worsen.

But if you not applying power, it has no advantage & may, in fact, be a disadvantage.

So if you want to race in the wet, then it most certainly will be better to have AWD.

[Leadfoot]

But if you not applying power, it has no advantage & may, in fact, be a disadvantage.

I've tried free-wheeling when on an economy drive but I don't get farther than the next hill.;)

Agreed when not applying throttle the awd has no advantage, but on almost every journey you will apply more throttle than brakes but even if it were 50/50 that would mean only half of the time both cars would be equal, the other half the awd car would still have to advantage.


So if you want to race in the wet, then it most certainly will be better to have AWD.

I don't want to race in the rain any more than the next man, but if that is the conditions at the time I won't have to pack up shop and go home because I am at a disadvantage, now will I. :hihi:

But this is getting far off topic, lets get back to the subject of the M3 vs R8 vs C06 shall we.

[Mmm]

I've tried free-wheeling when on an economy drive but I don't get farther than the next hill.;)

Agreed when not applying throttle the awd has no advantage, but on almost every journey you will apply more throttle than brakes but even if it were 50/50 that would mean only half of the time both cars would be equal, the other half the awd car would still have to advantage.



Are you saying all RWD car's cannot apply power when the driver is using light throttle openings at lowish revs on his cruise home in the rain? I can assure you most people get home fine in RWD in the wet. You need to go full throttle in the low gears for traction issues. And even they most cars have traction control that simply will cut the throttle anyway. But when its rainng most people will use part throttle in the upper gears to cruise home on the highway & there will be no advantage to AWD.

Like I said the only advantage is if you actually WANT to race in the wet. Then AWD has a distinct advantage.

[Leadfoot]

Sorry, but I thought we were talking about spirited driving not the kind from the film 'Driving Miss Daisy'. ;)

[RussianM3_dude]

I would swap Quattro for BWM brake balance stability system anyday. In a BM you can emergency brake in a corner with no problems. Try that in an RS4... Yeah right, it's already nervous in a straight line.

[tazsura]

I would swap Quattro for BWM brake balance stability system anyday. In a BM you can emergency brake in a corner with no problems. Try that in an RS4... Yeah right, it's already nervous in a straight line.

Having read your other comments about your driving...why am i NOT suprised you have trouble driving in a straight line?! :harass:

Taz ;)

[Leadfoot]

I would swap Quattro for BWM brake balance stability system anyday. In a BM you can emergency brake in a corner with no problems. Try that in an RS4... Yeah right, it's already nervous in a straight line.

I have driven most forms of motorsport machinery from karting to rallying to single seater racers and in almost all cases braking has to be done prior to the corner because they are twitchy, it's a sign of something with good front end grip and turn-in. I serious think you need to career change to fairy-tale writer because only children would believe your dribble. :lovl:

[Mori]

I would swap Quattro for BWM brake balance stability system anyday. In a BM you can emergency brake in a corner with no problems. Try that in an RS4... Yeah right, it's already nervous in a straight line.

Hmm, I happened to have an emergency braking situation in my Audi S3 at 160km/h in a curve - slammed the brakes because a truck swerved in front of me and guess what - that car just shuddered a little and thats it.

Dude - get your facts straight or don't bother because its getting frustrating reading your BS.

[RussianM3_dude]

Dude, drive an RS4 then comment.

[RussianM3_dude]

Sorry, but I thought we were talking about spirited driving not the kind from the film 'Driving Miss Daisy'. ;)


This guy probably believed all the Quattro hype.

http://wwwboards.auto.ru/migalki/257968.html

[tazsura]

Dude, drive an RS4 then comment.

I drive and OWN a RS4. You seem to be the exception to the norm...with your driving "skills".

Taz :p

[Leadfoot]

Dude, drive an RS4 then comment.

Likewise. :lovl:

[tazsura]

Likewise. :lovl:

:applause:

Taz :lovl:

[Leadfoot]

This guy probably believed all the Quattro hype.

http://wwwboards.auto.ru/migalki/257968.html

It's not hype, I know the benefits of awd system through my rally experience and by rwd experience through trackdays plus other things and in the situation of road use the benefits of having Quattro is not hype it's a fact.

In fact if you were to ask any of the Autocar/EVO/Autoexpress lads which car they would prefer to drive as their daily transport and the majority will say Audi Quattro. It might not be the most entertaining drive but for efficiency it's have no equals.

I am not the one looking silly with my quotes and comments on this board, now am I. :D

[tazsura]

I don't see what's so special about the RS4 engine. Ok I whole-heartedly commend Audi for growing some danglies and actually meeting BMW head on with a NA engine (witness how they chickened out with the RS6). However it's not a very good engine unless you look at the spec. When I read the brochure, I was like "Wow, off the hizzle fo' shizzle!!!" but in real life it's just not that special except for the fact that it revs like no Audi before it.

The main problem is that it is very linear and one-dimensional. I see no difference in sound or delivery between 5 and 8250 rpm which means that I often shift too early or bounce of the limiter. The engine just doesn't push you to squeeze out every rev like the E46 M3 or a I4 sport bike. Also, there is not that much throttle response, not even close to something like the Ferrari 4.3 or the BMW 3.2 . Also, the direct injection whine just totally ruins the sound. It is weird, on some days I almost don't hear it and only the engine sound, other days their is so much whine, the engine sounds like a blender, complete crock.

It's not an engine with a lot of character. Very competent, but it leaves me cold. I heard the old Arese Alfa GTA V6... now THAT is how an engine should sound and feel. I can only imagine if Alfa had the cash to push it to 100hp/liter.

As for the R8... Audi definetly benefits from lowered expectations and the fact that it's cars are much easier to squeeze performance out of. I think from next year, once Porsche updates their engines... Game over, 911 will be back on top.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9070910.004/bmw-m5-twin-turbo-and-m7-prototypes-spied

Wow, that's HAS to hurt!

Your beloved BMW...having to twin turbo the M5...what happened dude?!

Taz :hihi: :jlol: :lovl: :harass:

[Mori]

Dude, drive an RS4 then comment.

I seem to own one too. :incar:

[Mori]

This guy probably believed all the Quattro hype.

http://wwwboards.auto.ru/migalki/257968.html

Pathetic comment.

Obviously all the F1 drivers that crashed suck and can't drive for shit.

[RussianM3_dude]

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9070910.004/bmw-m5-twin-turbo-and-m7-prototypes-spied

Wow, that's HAS to hurt!

Your beloved BMW...having to twin turbo the M5...what happened dude?!

Taz :hihi: :jlol: :lovl: :harass:

It's all Audi's fault. Because of their inferiority syndrome, they have to compensate with massive on paper power. Unfortunately most people fall for that. However let's see if it will have turboes after all. I am thinking ///M would rather lose some weight. There has been speculation of a ///M6 CSL and maybe an ///M5 CSL. Loose 200 kilos and it will be as fast as an RS6 as well as way more fun to drive.

[RussianM3_dude]

Pathetic comment.

Obviously all the F1 drivers that crashed suck and can't drive for shit.

All I am saying is that you can easily lose control with quattro and it's no panacea for crap driving skills. Modern traction control is basically as good as quattro. It's all in the tires now.

[tazsura]

It's all Audi's fault. Because of their inferiority syndrome, they have to compensate with massive on paper power. Unfortunately most people fall for that. However let's see if it will have turboes after all. I am thinking ///M would rather lose some weight. There has been speculation of a ///M6 CSL and maybe an ///M5 CSL. Loose 200 kilos and it will be as fast as an RS6 as well as way more fun to drive.

LOL..inferiority? You crease me up. So Audi now with their massive power have surely turned "inferiority" into Superiority, no?

And why can't the genius's at BMW just wave their wond and produce an extra 80hhp from the NA V10? Must be easy surely?

I would love to see a CSL M6. I doubt they could do it in the M5 though, as this is supposed to be a luxury saloon as well as being a sporty beast. To drop 200kg without dropping such items as air con etc...would be very hard...and completely alienate a huge chunk of clientel.

Taz :D

[Mori]

All I am saying is that you can easily lose control with quattro and it's no panacea for crap driving skills. Modern traction control is basically as good as quattro. It's all in the tires now.

BS. Not going to explain since you don't give a shite anyway and just troll like the worst.

[Leadfoot]

All I am saying is that you can easily lose control with quattro and it's no panacea for crap driving skills. Modern traction control is basically as good as quattro. It's all in the tires now.

For once you are actually talking sense.:doh: But only partly, modern ESP system are amazing at reining in the excesses of power over traction, but the difference between Quattro and their kind need the interaction of these system much less than either fwd or rwd cars, proving that they are more in control of the grip available to the tyres than set-ups that don't have the benefits of awd.

Not that you will argue with this anyway.

[RussianM3_dude]

Well obviously AWD still has the edge, however it's shrinking fast to the point where the point becomes moot.

[Leadfoot]

Well obviously AWD still has the edge, however it's shrinking fast to the point where the point becomes moot.

What's this, you admitting that Quattro is actually better at something. Call the newpapers, we have a front page story for them.

As for your opinion that ESP is a substitute for the additional grip afforded with Quattro, sadly once again you are wrong, ESP slows the car down to regain grip not reposition power to the wheels with most grip.

A simply mistake from an uneducated mind. ;)

[RussianM3_dude]

And quattro makes you understeer, which also slows you down.

[Leadfoot]

If both cars enter a corner to quick then both will understeer and the ESP will intervene but Quattro allows the car to corner through a corner at a high speed without the ESP system getting involved. This is it's additional grip, but you wouldn't know anything about this, only people with Quattro cars would know, like the one who drive RS4s etc. ;)

[RussianM3_dude]

Quattro adds weight, hence undesteer will be more pronounced.

[Leadfoot]

Quattro isn't the reason for understeer, extra weight over the front axle does this. But again it's lack of knowledge on how to drive a Quattro car that causes most of the problems, you need to drive one like a rwd 911 slow in and power through the corner. Do this and you will always be quick on the track, road etc.

Rwd gives more options if there's enough power to break traction at the rear but this is only a last resort when dogged understeer has taking over. Ultimately it's much slower to power slide than controlled understeer, best of all 4 wheel drift but then again it takes an awd car for that.

But I can tell you this the R8 is a miles better driving, handling and balanced car than an M3/5/6 or in fact anything currently in production from BMW. And it seems TopGear agrees with the findings of Autocar, in fact Jeremy is smitten with it.

[RussianM3_dude]

Jezza loved Alfa Romeo Brera which is mediocre to drive. I dunno, he is an entertainer.

[Mmm]

There is no way understeer is faster than oversteer. You obviously can't drive RWD. If you giving loads of lock, then yeah. But if you catching a whiff of oversteer & are keeping the throttle & momentum going forward you will gave good exit speed. With understeer you have no option but to lift to get the nose in & then re-apply throttle. With oversteer you can keep the throttle buried & steer with it while getting the nose to the apex & powering out.

But I agree the R8 is the best handler out there at the moment. The videos I have seen have it oversteering while nicely, especially when Tiff drove it. I hear it can send up to 95% to the rear which is probably why it handles so well.

[RussianM3_dude]

Understeer can actually be pretty hard to counter, especially on a tight road.

[Leadfoot]

There is no way understeer is faster than oversteer. You obviously can't drive RWD. If you giving loads of lock, then yeah. But if you catching a whiff of oversteer & are keeping the throttle & momentum going forward you will gave good exit speed. With understeer you have no option but to lift to get the nose in & then re-apply throttle. With oversteer you can keep the throttle buried & steer with it while getting the nose to the apex & powering out.

But I agree the R8 is the best handler out there at the moment. The videos I have seen have it oversteering while nicely, especially when Tiff drove it. I hear it can send up to 95% to the rear which is probably why it handles so well.

Use to rally the Mk2 Escort so probably you are correct, I know nothing.;)

[Mori]

Lets face the fact that most people don't track their cars, and there are many better ring toys than RS4s or M3s.

Second of all, some people drive their car in extreme conditions all year, and get to where they are going faster and safer with Quattro than ESP+RWD.

My weekend fun-car will always be RWD, but my daily driver/family car will always have Quattro.

Oh and since I am out of a weekend fun-car atm, then I guess I just have to slide around in my RS4. ;) Made my g/f scream a bit last night in the rain when we went around some twisties sideways. :D And guess what - no understeer if you know what you're doing. :p


Hmm and since this thread is about the R8 vs. M3s and whatnot - I guess I'd better get back on topic and just state that I'd still prefer a GT3 or GT3RS over the R8, which is a beautiful car and suprisingly good, but the 911 simply has my heart.

[Leadfoot]

Mori,

You naughty boy, 1000 lines saying I must never place another car ahead of an Audi.:w:

[Mori]

I'd actually considered cut and pasting that 1000 times, but then I figured I'd get banned for spam. ;)

But seriously - I'm young without a family and if I didn't need an Avant for work, I'd definately go for a 911. :)

[Leadfoot]

I'd actually considered cut and pasting that 1000 times, but then I figured I'd get banned for spam. ;)

But seriously - I'm young without a family and if I didn't need an Avant for work, I'd definately go for a 911. :)

After driving both the Cayman and 997S seriously on the track I would never consider the 997. The Cayman is a much better driving car with much better balance and front-end grip, but as for the one to go and pose in, well that's a different story, the 997 would win every time.

[Mori]

Well the 9974S with the powerkit is the first car which could go faster in the twisties than I have the guts to try. Even with the RS4, while having fantastic grip, has reached its grip threshold on more than one occasion - of course I liftoff then to get some oversteer and continue on happily. :) A great car - I really love it, but I want something more hardcore, less comfy, louder, and basically a sports car.

Test drove a 2007 M5 today - very very fast, actually quite decent to drive in town with P500S on, but way too big for me.

Now - the RS5 if it comes out is one mean machine that could grab hold of me as well. ;)

Love my RS4 - best touring car you can buy IMO - just for the record. ;)

[Leadfoot]

Well the 9974S with the powerkit is the first car which could go faster in the twisties than I have the guts to try. Even with the RS4, while having fantastic grip, has reached its grip threshold on more than one occasion - of course I liftoff then to get some oversteer and continue on happily. :) A great car - I really love it, but I want something more hardcore, less comfy, louder, and basically a sports car.

Test drove a 2007 M5 today - very very fast, actually quite decent to drive in town with P500S on, but way too big for me.

Now - the RS5 if it comes out is one mean machine that could grab hold of me as well. ;)

Love my RS4 - best touring car you can buy IMO - just for the record. ;)

I didn't get to sample the Carrera4S on the track so can't comment on what it's differences are compared to the rwd version. No doubt the 4S will be better balanced and have better on the limit manners. As for the normal Carrera S, it was a car that each time you entered the same corner the car reacted differently, this wasn't true of course it was just even small entry speed differences made the car react differently, either oversteering or understeering. Again I didn't feel the confidence that I felt with the Cayman or Boxster, with them the only thing that a different entry speed did was alter the arch of the corner, not the car's behaviour.

Funny you found the M5 only big, I found it way to quick for it's own good. Not a car I felt comfortable driving quickly, the nose felt even more nose heavy than the Audi. I don't know the weight balance but it felt very light at the rear to me.

[Mori]

I didn't get to sample the Carrera4S on the track so can't comment on what it's differences are compared to the rwd version. No doubt the 4S will be better balanced and have better on the limit manners. As for the normal Carrera S, it was a car that each time you entered the same corner the car reacted differently, this wasn't true of course it was just even small entry speed differences made the car react differently, either oversteering or understeering. Again I didn't feel the confidence that I felt with the Cayman or Boxster, with them the only thing that a different entry speed did was alter the arch of the corner, not the car's behaviour.

Funny you found the M5 only big, I found it way to quick for it's own good. Not a car I felt comfortable driving quickly, the nose felt even more nose heavy than the Audi. I don't know the weight balance but it felt very light at the rear to me.

Hmm I drove the S on the track as well and quite frankly it was really stable. It actually felt more composed and better sorted than the 996 TT I drove later that day.

I absolutely agree about the Cayman/Boxster - great handling regarding over/understeer. Easy to correct if you try to do something stupid. But the 911 I drove did feel faster in the twisties.


I didn't feel the lightness in the rear - but the 500HP certainly. I could get it to spin in 4th gear (ok the tires were a little worn ;)) and it certainly doesn't feel as surefooted as the RS4, but its easy to drive, is well balanced in corners and probably extremely easy to drift in (the M6 is at least :jlol:).

Here's the vid from the BMW M6 event (Launch control at about 00:38-40 into the movie): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBuBGmUf-O4

I didn't film it - I just drove the car. ;)

[Leadfoot]

Hmm I drove the S on the track as well and quite frankly it was really stable. It actually felt more composed and better sorted than the 996 TT I drove later that day.

I absolutely agree about the Cayman/Boxster - great handling regarding over/understeer. Easy to correct if you try to do something stupid. But the 911 I drove did feel faster in the twisties.

Don't get me wrong, the 997 is a great handling car, I think my problem was that I sampled the Cayman S first on a track which though dry had not be used for some days prior to the event and it's surface was a little greasy. The Cayman just took everything in it's stride and never put a foot wrong and it's balance is so lovely. The 997 was either understeering or oversteering and heaven forbid you lifted a little mid corner when the nose run wide as you had to be quick with the steering to catch the tail. I found the only way to get a good time was to be a little slower in to and through the corner than the Cayman and wait until just before the corner had finished before giving it the beans.


I didn't feel the lightness in the rear - but the 500HP certainly. I could get it to spin in 4th gear (ok the tires were a little worn ;)) and it certainly doesn't feel as surefooted as the RS4, but its easy to drive, is well balanced in corners and probably extremely easy to drift in (the M6 is at least :jlol:).


There is no doubt this is a machine designed before going sideways. It interesting to hear you didn't find it light at the rear end, maybe the roads you were on were a lot smoother than the ones I sampled it on because I thought I was sat not in an M5 but a E55, the DSG light was blinking away with every poke of the throttle. Something you seldom see with a Quattro. It may well have been well balance in the corners but at the time, finding it's better behaved side was not on my agenda. :hahahehe:

[Mori]

Don't get me wrong, the 997 is a great handling car, I think my problem was that I sampled the Cayman S first on a track which though dry had not be used for some days prior to the event and it's surface was a little greasy. The Cayman just took everything in it's stride and never put a foot wrong and it's balance is so lovely. The 997 was either understeering or oversteering and heaven forbid you lifted a little mid corner when the nose run wide as you had to be quick with the steering to catch the tail. I found the only way to get a good time was to be a little slower in to and through the corner than the Cayman and wait until just before the corner had finished before giving it the beans.



There is no doubt this is a machine designed before going sideways. It interesting to hear you didn't find it light at the rear end, maybe the roads you were on were a lot smoother than the ones I sampled it on because I thought I was sat not in an M5 but a E55, the DSG light was blinking away with every poke of the throttle. Something you seldom see with a Quattro. It may well have been well balance in the corners but at the time, finding it's better behaved side was not on my agenda. :hahahehe:

997/Cayman: yeah I can imagine that the Cayman felt much more neutral and balanced. :) I had fun with Caymans in the rain on a track - it was soooo easy to control. :D


Dude - I'm based in Poland where roads are not smooth by definition! :) True - I easily broke traction when accelerating, but with M Dynamic Mode the DSC intervention was very soft, and when I switched it off, the car drove in a straight line anyway. I guess its really easy to over do it with DSC off in corners, but hey - you need to know how to drive if you buy a car like that right? :hihi:

Hmm - just to clarify: I wouldn't buy an M5/6 personally. :) Would prefer a P-car (GT3 or Turbo please).