Is there a German Power limit in force?

[Leadfoot]

I was wondering is there now a German manufacturers power limit agreement in force for small executive saloon cars?

Check this out and you will understand where I am coming from.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm/spyphotoid/6070416.001/country/gcf/spy-photos-mercedes-c63-amg

Notice the similarity in the power figures, very odd especially from such a large engine that in normal tune kicks out 520hp.

[Ruergard]

Good point there, thought of that to a couple of days ago. They really are very close to each other... and I can't really see why? As you said that engine normally puts out a lot more power.. and here they got it down so it fits exactly with the M3 and the RS4. So, anybody got a good answer to this?

EDIT: Normally, ofcourse all producers wants their highperformace car to be the quickest in it's class. Should be the same here, so why didn't they do it? There must be an reagulation or an agreement between the manufacters.. I can't get it. :D

[BigRick]

Mercedes AMGs normally have huge amount of torque (normally more impressive than the actual HP) can it be related?

For example the 5.5L engine in the SLK 55 AMG was developing 355hp (only!) but 376lb-ft or torque. So a 400-420hp for the 6.3 seams in line with these specs (maybe a bit low). If I remember correctly the numbers of the C were very close to these also.

But I recon, the the magic number seams to be 420 these days! Maybe they're having some kind of mutual agreement in our back :( that wouldn't be nice of them...

[rokke]

there surely is no agreement bout that in europe or germany especially.....i guess there will soon come some higher tuned engines for the c-class amg model. i guess, they´ll do it like they do with the cl- and s-classes.the flagship of mercedes-benz. first they throw in the "little" amg-engine...mostly called 63amg....(always the tuned v8 mercedes engine...the 63number replaced the older 55amg description) and some months later the big boss comes. the 65amg....the tuned v12...so there wont be a v12 in the c-class :D but surely a much higher tuned version of the v8 or perhaps something special (i dont mean turbos or compressor). they already "combined" two faces in one car....u can choose the "cl-look" or the "s-class look"...avantgarde or elegance..so they could do the same with the engines...first the smaller 63 (perhaps renamed with other numbers cuz of the ccm) then the 65 or "xx". and when i come to the end i have to say........u dont need more than 420hp in a c-class....u dont need it in any car of its segment....nobody of us drives that good beeing able to move those cars on their limit......we just get to know ours......there just a few who can handle.....and u r fast enough from a to b with a even smaller engine cuz i get from koblenz (my home before i went to munich...koblenz is near the eiffel where the nurburgring is..) to munich.....500km in under 3:15h with my 1.4 L 75bhp golf IV....

so no agreement, and its not that important how much bhp a car has....the hole work must be a masterpiece....the gt3rs isnt a ps monster and just got 6 cylinders much less ccm than some SUVs made for families.....but its just one of the best cars ever built....this isnt perfect in a technical way, there will be newer, even better cars from this manufactorer, but for itsself it truly is perfect to me...

[Leadfoot]

This statement from rokke got me thinking, what about this Black series that Mercedes are now offering with their AMG cars, could the standard C63amg be a bit like Audi's S4 and the Black series being the RS version. Then we might just see the C63amg Black series with 450~460hp.

[PeterJohn]

This statement from rokke got me thinking,...

It made my nose bleed. :)

I think it's economics. The profit margins are bigger on bigger cars. When you start upgrading the engine, you've got to upgrade a lot of other stuff. You'll end up with a car that's nearly as expensive to produce as the bigger model, but you can't ask for bigger-car-money, b/c people will just get the bigger car instead.
And if you do offer it cheaper, you'll loose the money you could've made on the bigger car.

For instance, would you pay 911 money for a 3.8l Cayman? Would you buy a 911, if there was a much cheaper Cayman 3.8l?

[jakobmm]

Why not go all the way and give it 514 bhp like the E63?
It would then leave both the RS4 and M3 behind - at least in a straight line. I am not sure how it would perform on the track, but I am sure it is heavi er than both the RS4 and M3

It sure leaves great potential for the tuners to work their magic:mech::wo:

[Leadfoot]

It made my nose bleed. :)

I think it's economics. The profit margins are bigger on bigger cars. When you start upgrading the engine, you've got to upgrade a lot of other stuff. You'll end up with a car that's nearly as expensive to produce as the bigger model, but you can't ask for bigger-car-money, b/c people will just get the bigger car instead.
And if you do offer it cheaper, you'll loose the money you could've made on the bigger car.

For instance, would you pay 911 money for a 3.8l Cayman? Would you buy a 911, if there was a much cheaper Cayman 3.8l?

PeterJohn, you are a BMW driver, does the M3 not fall into this catagory where the lesser car is all but as quick as those bigger cars like the M5/6.

A person who will buy a C63 will not buy a S63 or vice versa and the person who will buy an M5 will not concider an M3. There is more to chosing a car than just price and performance, size is also important and no one wanting a bigger E class or S class will even think of a C class when chosing a car regardless of it's performance.

The fact that the parts have to be upgraded does hold water but chances are the gearbox in the E63 will be the same as the C63 and the same will go for the brakes as well so I doubt they are saving very little by reducing the power to 420hp over giving it something like 460hp but who knows.

[PeterJohn]

I'm not entirely certain that cross shopping doesn't happen. If I was buying an AMG, I would look for the best deal. Price/performance wise. And if the C class had the same engine spec, for C-class money, then that would be the best deal. The best deal for me, is the worst deal for Mercedes.

If the C63 has the same drivetrain and brakes as the E63, but a lot less power, then it'll a very bad deal for Mercedes. B/c they'd have to sell it at RS4/M3 money.

And we are assuming that Worldcarfans are correct. The CLK63, which is the size of a C class, has 475hp. I'm not even sure it's possible to detune the AMG V8 to as low as 420hp, without harming its effeciency. You'd have to restrict the rpms or something.

It'll probably be slighly less powerful than the E63 (probably the same tune as the CLK63) and slightly less expensive. More power than the Bimmers and Audis, but also a lot more expensive.
Then, whatever the consumer choses, Mercedes' profit margin will be intact.