New BMW M6 CSL?

[Erik]

At this years Frankfurt IAA. BMW are planning to show a BMW M6 CSL Concept Car . This will give a very good indication of how BMW are planning their M (CSL) cars to stand out from the road going versions.

Think of it as a modern interpretation of such as the BMW 3.5 CSL especially as it evolutionised over the years in which the BMW E9 coupe is in fact a precursor to today's current 6er Coupe range.

Although the M6 uses as standard a Carbon Fibre roof. The plans for CSL cars are to use more weight reducing Carbon Fibre internally and externally. Lightweight glass and more enhanced aerodynamics with sufficient increased power the V10 is expected to go up to 550 PS. This will make the BMW M6 CSL become more hardcore and raw with earth shattering enhancements in speed, handling and will sound louder than the standard road cars - Think direct competition with the M6 CSL against the Porsche 997 GT3/RS and Aston Martin DBS.

The M6 CSL Concept car will also showcase the introduction of the ZSG Gearbox.

Visually the M6 will differ from it's standard car by offering new M cues as seen on the recent BMW M3 Concept Car.

Causing much mystery is the appearance of a bulge on the bonnet of some M6 photographs, this will be supplemented with a pair of vents on each side . The front bumper changes to a unupturned shape similar to todays car and the upcoming BMW M3 with a curved bottom ledge - carbon Fibre aerodynamic spoilers sit below the brake cooling vents .

On the side of the wings the M6 CSL will receive air vents similar to the M3 , The wheel design will be the same design as today's standard car but the spokes will be of Multi-Spoke design. at the rear there is a slightly larger vent underneath the licence plate and the standard mirrors are replaced by the same design as the new M3's aerodynamic mirrors.

Whilst the BMW M3 and BMW M6 will more than definetely be greenlighted to get a CSL model. BMW are deciding on offering a CSL model of the Z4M Coupe and the upcoming BMW 1er Coupe.

Whilst seen as a Concept Car. BMW will use the M6 CSL as a test bed for new lightweight technologies and will use reaction to determine production reality.
With all this requiring serious legislation for the North American market. Currently as of now BMW do not intend to offer these models in the USA.

[Leadfoot]

I take it the gearbox you are referring to is the direct rival to the DSG gearbox that BMW are set to introduce.

If they are going to include a lot more carbon fibre then the cost of the car will go up quite a bit.

Erik, with BMW bringing out so many CSL models, do you see BMW's CSL role changing to be more of a rival to the new breed of RS Audis coming out in the near future than the standard M version?

It doesn't sound logical to develop so many CSL unless it is to become more mainstream than the M6 CSL you are describing or is it going to be the exception in this new range of CSLs.

Either way for the trackday drivers out there it would spell exciting times ahead with more choice in all price brackets, go get them BMW.:thumb:

[Benman]

Erik, with BMW bringing out so many CSL models, do you see BMW's CSL role changing to be more of a rival to the new breed of RS Audis coming out in the near future than the standard M version?



Either way for the trackday drivers out there it would spell exciting times ahead with more choice in all price brackets, go get them BMW.:thumb:

Good observation, I'd have never thunk that one.:thumb: Who knows, maybe that will end up being the case, although the new "regular" upcoming M3 certainly wouldn't lead us to believe that!

Either way, like you say, us consumers win! :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Leadfoot]

Well Ben,

The reason I said future RS models and not the current RS4 is because it only has a year or so left in production and in any case from what I have been told the new S5 is way better to drive than the current RS4 in every way possible so one can assume the next RS5 and RS4 will be something very special indeed. And this as again assuming that the RS5 will be running a tweaked version of the RS4, what if Audi give it 450+hp or better this fit the V10 from the S8, happy days, then the idea that the M3 is a rival to the RS5 would be blown out of the water. I have also heard that the S5 will be getting a tweak to it's engine sometime next year, possibly VL and with it a lift in power maybe as much as 20~25hp, combine this with some extra torque and it might once again be the direct rival to the M3.

There is another angle to this also, many here believe that Audi will restrict the RS versions to only the A4/5/6 and possibly A8, if BMW do bring out a CSL in all their model groups one can also assume Audi won't stand idly by and not counter this with RS version of the A3, TT and quite possibly R8.

Again the customers win, BRING IT ON.

[Lateknight]

Although the M6 uses as standard a Carbon Fibre roof. The plans for CSL cars are to use more weight reducing Carbon Fibre internally and externally.


The M6 CSL Concept car will also showcase the introduction of the ZSG Gearbox.




Are they still going to use a pressed cardboard boot floor (like the M3CSL).
Can't imagine the average 6 series driver wanting to put too many golf bags in that boot.

What does ZSG stand for ? Anybody know?

[Leadfoot]

Are they still going to use a pressed cardboard boot floor (like the M3CSL).
Can't imagine the average 6 series driver wanting to put too many golf bags in that boot.

What does ZSG stand for ? Anybody know?

It's German and it stands for 'Zis Silly Gearbox', though dont quote me on that.:D

No seriously I remembered reading somewhere that this is the direct rival to the DSG from VAG, it is a twin clutch gearbox.

[Erik]

What does ZSG stand for ? Anybody know?

ZSG stands for Zentral-Syncron-Getriebe.

"..This SMG 4 has a dual clutch system like VW and AUDI for D 1-5 and S 1-5 shift programs.. so its jus like a more advanced SMGIII with faster shifting and super smooth shifts..

BUT when you press S6.. with DSC off and all that goes with it something BRAND NEW is going to happen for a road car.. the clutches will be disengaged all together just like an F1 car and the changes will happen more quickly than any SMG or DSG.. when you pull the change up lever the ECU will cut the revs just enough in an instant and slot in the next ratio in a wildly fast time and in brutal fashion..

This will be the fastest shifting system around.. but only in S6.. S1-5 and D1-5 will use the dual clutch system..
Its how formula 1 do it.. they only use a clutch to pull off.. the computer does the rest..

..this has been confirmed by friends who work in the factory here ( 3 series production ). they have already recieved maintenance training on it.."

---------------------------------------------

Also: not all models will get same ZSG / DCT systems.


Like said many times before: current SMG is already a bit old tech. Dual clutch is the future. But some current DCT characteristics do not fit BMW character well (especially not M character) therefore BMW (with partners) are tweaking DCT tech to fit BMW perfectly. ZSG is the result. And it's not a secret BMW have been testing ZSG on E92 M3 ...

Btw, marketing dept. is favoring "SMG IV" name / TM, while ZSG is an internal "code" for this kind of transmission.

[Leadfoot]

ZSG stands for Zentral-Syncron-Getriebe.

"..This SMG 4 has a dual clutch system like VW and AUDI for D 1-5 and S 1-5 shift programs.. so its jus like a more advanced SMGIII with faster shifting and super smooth shifts..

BUT when you press S6.. with DSC off and all that goes with it something BRAND NEW is going to happen for a road car.. the clutches will be disengaged all together just like an F1 car and the changes will happen more quickly than any SMG or DSG.. when you pull the change up lever the ECU will cut the revs just enough in an instant and slot in the next ratio in a wildly fast time and in brutal fashion..

This will be the fastest shifting system around.. but only in S6.. S1-5 and D1-5 will use the dual clutch system..
Its how formula 1 do it.. they only use a clutch to pull off.. the computer does the rest..

..this has been confirmed by friends who work in the factory here ( 3 series production ). they have already recieved maintenance training on it.."

---------------------------------------------

Also: not all models will get same ZSG / DCT systems.


Like said many times before: current SMG is already a bit old tech. Dual clutch is the future. But some current DCT characteristics do not fit BMW character well (especially not M character) therefore BMW (with partners) are tweaking DCT tech to fit BMW perfectly. ZSG is the result. And it's not a secret BMW have been testing ZSG on E92 M3 ...

Btw, marketing dept. is favoring "SMG IV" name / TM, while ZSG is an internal "code" for this kind of transmission.

Looks like BMW are expecting problems - they have already recieved maintenance training on it.:hihi:

It was only time before BMW and the rest would catch up, this news is going to put egg on the face of those who said the SMG is a better gearbox than DSG.

So then where does this leave VW/Audi, we still don't know when their 7sp DSG is going to come on board but with this news I would assume it shouldn't be long.

[frikktion]

i dont know if this is it... but its a hint of how it may look :) :applause:

[quattro Gmbh]

very nice.

source?

[frikktion]

very nice.

source?

www.speedheads.de

[Leadfoot]

I have been think about what this gearbox will be doing when put into S6 mode and I reckon this is total madness.

Yes we know a F1 gearbox does the same thing but their gearboxes are rebuilt after every race, they are not designed to run the life of the car and before anyone says it, I know it will only be in S6 mode the odd time but still it does sound like BMW are placing a lot of faith in very new and unproven technology for use in a road car.

They done seem with this gearbox to be pushing this link with their F1 car technology to new heights, I only hope it works for them as there will be a lot of angry customers if it doesn't.

[skratch]

leadfoot I can shift my car without using the clutch as long as the syncros are matched up,you can do it with NO clutch.

It takes lots of practice and I dont recomend trying it.If the computer matches the revs perfect,there shouldnt be long term problems...It might even make the car last longer because less clutch is being used.

Its like power shifting but having the ecu match the engine for u.

edit...heres a senario.I drive around town in 4th,I throw it in neutrol...I rev the engine and the gear basically drops in 3rd on its own with no clutch.You have to be really close on the revs or it will grind.

[Leadfoot]

Yeah, your quite possibly right, I have not experience of it so I was just wondering if it was good for a gearbox to be doing it all the time.

[frikktion]

leadfoot I can shift my car without using the clutch as long as the syncros are matched up,you can do it with NO clutch.

It takes lots of practice and I dont recomend trying it.If the computer matches the revs perfect,there shouldnt be long term problems...It might even make the car last longer because less clutch is being used.

Its like power shifting but having the ecu match the engine for u.

edit...heres a senario.I drive around town in 4th,I throw it in neutrol...I rev the engine and the gear basically drops in 3rd on its own with no clutch.You have to be really close on the revs or it will grind.

yeah... that is awsome... my friend does that sometimes in his BMW E30 318, BMW E34 535i or in his parents Opel Astra! :applause: :revs: :wo:

[Mori]

BUT when you press S6.. with DSC off and all that goes with it something BRAND NEW is going to happen for a road car.. the clutches will be disengaged all together just like an F1 car and the changes will happen more quickly than any SMG or DSG.. when you pull the change up lever the ECU will cut the revs just enough in an instant and slot in the next ratio in a wildly fast time and in brutal fashion..


Small print: You can only shift 10 times in S6. Every shift above that costs $100 and voids your warranty.


Regarding the current SMG in the M5/M6 - whats the point in installing launch control if you can only safely use it 10 times? Spoke with the dealer and they said the count is stored somewhere where they don't have access to it - many customers here have already voided their warranty on the SMG within a few weeks of owning the car. BS.

Anyway - BMW are going for speed and marketing gimmicks - but seriously - who needs that in everyday driving? Especially if they can't support their technology with ample warranty.

[Mori]

leadfoot I can shift my car without using the clutch as long as the syncros are matched up,you can do it with NO clutch.

It takes lots of practice and I dont recomend trying it.If the computer matches the revs perfect,there shouldnt be long term problems...It might even make the car last longer because less clutch is being used.

Its like power shifting but having the ecu match the engine for u.

edit...heres a senario.I drive around town in 4th,I throw it in neutrol...I rev the engine and the gear basically drops in 3rd on its own with no clutch.You have to be really close on the revs or it will grind.

My friend's family member is a rally cross driver. You need to replace the gears rather frequently if you plan this sort of driving. ;) In theory it doesn't damage them - in practice it does anyway.

[skratch]

Small print: You can only shift 10 times in S6. Every shift above that costs $100 and voids your warranty.


Regarding the current SMG in the M5/M6 - whats the point in installing launch control if you can only safely use it 10 times? Spoke with the dealer and they said the count is stored somewhere where they don't have access to it - many customers here have already voided their warranty on the SMG within a few weeks of owning the car. BS.

Anyway - BMW are going for speed and marketing gimmicks - but seriously - who needs that in everyday driving? Especially if they can't support their technology with ample warranty.

They cant void your warenty for using something the car comes with.I have only heard of a few dealers here in the US voiding the clutch on the M5 after one guy went threw 3 of them...Something like over 100 launches were done.

BMW will get sued if they deny warenty for using a huge selling point on the car.

[SuperstarDriver]

Another BMW (Bavarian Motherfuckin' Workshit) car with stupid design, stupid traction control, stupid RWD, stupid interior, stupid gearbox and stupid engine...BMW really sucks...and Audi will kick them off soon with the new nuclear warheads RS5, RS6 and R8 V10...i just wait, if anybody saw autobild.de and automotorsport.de tests with Q7 against X5 and Cayenne Facelift again with 1 year on the market Q7 wins, A3 against stupid ugly awfull 1 series, again A3 wins, and the new M5 Touring against S6 Avant again S6 Avant wins, any car that Audi is making right now is better, faster, beautiful, sexier, impressive, more dynamic and stabile than the BMW rival, so WTF do we talk about those stupid BMW cars?!I'm sick of BMW's and their "SUPER DRIVERS"..."i have an BMW and i can beat everyone cause i BMW"....stupid people with very very stupid and ugly cars....yakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[Mori]

They cant void your warenty for using something the car comes with.

Tell BMW that - they're doing it.

[Mori]

Another BMW (Bavarian Motherfuckin' Workshit) car with stupid design, stupid traction control, stupid RWD, stupid interior, stupid gearbox and stupid engine...BMW really sucks...and Audi will kick them off soon with the new nuclear warheads RS5, RS6 and R8 V10...i just wait, if anybody saw autobild.de and automotorsport.de tests with Q7 against X5 and Cayenne Facelift again with 1 year on the market Q7 wins, A3 against stupid ugly awfull 1 series, again A3 wins, and the new M5 Touring against S6 Avant again S6 Avant wins, any car that Audi is making right now is better, faster, beautiful, sexier, impressive, more dynamic and stabile than the BMW rival, so WTF do we talk about those stupid BMW cars?!I'm sick of BMW's and their "SUPER DRIVERS"..."i have an BMW and i can beat everyone cause i BMW"....stupid people with very very stupid and ugly cars....yakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

AUDI IS GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[SuperstarDriver]

Of Course Audi Is God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!it Will Always Be...

[Leadfoot]

It's great to be able to sit on the side lines and watch an argument unfold without actually being a part of it.:rotflmao:

It doesn't sound logical that BMW can do such a thing but they do seem to wash their hands of warranty problems quite a lot, or should I say when they discover a problem with their cars so they decide not to recall the cars back for refitting to fix the problem but prefer to wait for the cars to break and only repair F.O.C. the ones that break under warranty.

How true this is I don't know but it was posted on a BMW fans website saying as much.

Bad sportsmanship that.:nono:

[Mori]

IMO BMW is getting too far into this F1 marketing bullsh!t. V10 engine and everyone says F1. SMG - same thing. Nothing to do with F1 really.

[Leadfoot]

Not to be seen defending BMW but are we not asking the same thing from Audi when we say bring out the R8v12TDi.

The difference is Audi are looking to see what can benefit the normal road user, this is why we have Quattro. BMW are going down the same route as Ferrari, getting F1 technology to their road cars at what ever cost. The only difference is that Ferrari are more successful at combining them into their range of cars, this might have something to do with the fact that they all are SUPERCARS and not regarded as day to day transport.

[skratch]

BMW is voiding the clutches....As far as I know the clutch is not covered under any car warenty.BMW was nice engough to replace a few for free,but thinking they should replace a clutch under warenty is asking to much.The car is a manual and the clutch will go bad...The launch control is dumping your clutch.....DO that in any car and you will eventually burn your clutch.

dump your rs4 from 5k a few times and see how long the cluctch lasts in it and run to your audi dealer and see if they replace it for free.When they do,try doing it 3 or 4 times and see if they start making you pay for the clutches you burn threw.

In the USA bmw will get sued if they kill your warenty for using s6 mode...That is the biggest load of bs rumors I have ever heard.That is there main selling point on the smg4,Telling a user he can only shift 10 times in s6...are you people that dumb? thats basically voiding your warenty before you get the car out the dealer lot.

Lets see throw it in s6,shif into 1st,2nd,3rd,down shift to 2nd,stop real quick,take off shift to second....ohhh shit I need to pay 100 bucks for every shift I make now and my warenty is voided....freaking halarious the way some of your people think.

The v10 was built in there F1 plant and is part of there f1 family.The v8 version of it was going for a 9k redline with 440hp but that is saved for the next csl.You can clearly see that car makes its peak hp(420)at 8300 wich is the rev limit of the car,so it basically pulls until fuel cut.

Just look at the bore and stroke of the v8 and tell me its not a F1 car lol the thing is designed to rev to like 10k it has a rediculus bore and stroke made for huge top end power.I cant wait to see what a set of really agressive cams do to this beast.

The block is built at there f1 lab people.

Engine block straight from BMW's Formula 1 foundry.
The engine block of the new eight-cylinder comes straight from BMW's light-alloy foundry in Landshut near Munich, where BMW also builds the engine blocks for the Company's Formula 1 racing cars. The cylinder crankcase, in turn, is made of a special aluminium silicon alloy, conventional cylinder liners being replaced by hard silicon crystals. The iron-coated pistons, finally, run directly in the uncoated, honed cylinder bore.
High engine speeds, compression forces and temperatures cause extreme loads acting on the crankcase. Hence, the crankcase is compact in its dimensions and comes in torsionally resistant bedplate design ensuring very precise crankshaft bearing and running conditions. The relatively short, forged crankshaft is likewise very stiff in terms of its flexural and torsional qualities, but weighs only 20 kg or 44 lb.

are you guys saying that bmw is not using proven technology from its F1 cars?Or are you just upset that Audi has no F1 team

[Leadfoot]

BMW is voiding the clutches....As far as I know the clutch is not covered under any car warenty.BMW was nice engough to replace a few for free,but thinking they should replace a clutch under warenty is asking to much.The car is a manual and the clutch will go bad...The launch control is dumping your clutch.....DO that in any car and you will eventually burn your clutch.

WHY OFFER SUCH A THING, IT IS ONLY INVITING PEOPLE TO USE IT.:doh:


dump your rs4 from 5k a few times and see how long the cluctch lasts in it and run to your audi dealer and see if they replace it for free.When they do,try doing it 3 or 4 times and see if they start making you pay for the clutches you burn threw.

Couldn't agree more but doing so means mentally you have decided to do it unlike the LC in which you simply hit a button.


In the USA bmw will get sued if they kill your warenty for using s6 mode...That is the biggest load of bs rumors I have ever heard.That is there main selling point on the smg4,Telling a user he can only shift 10 times in s6...are you people that dumb? thats basically voiding your warenty before you get the car out the dealer lot.

And agreed but in a way offering LC, BMW are inviting their customers to burn their clutches out and in so doing voiding their warranties.


The v10 was built in there F1 plant and is part of there f1 family.The v8 version of it was going for a 9k redline with 440hp but that is saved for the next csl.You can clearly see that car makes its peak hp(420)at 8300 wich is the rev limit of the car,so it basically pulls until fuel cut.

Just look at the bore and stroke of the v8 and tell me its not a F1 car lol the thing is designed to rev to like 10k it has a rediculus bore and stroke made for huge top end power.I cant wait to see what a set of really agressive cams do to this beast.

This again explains the differing thinking behind an Audi driver's mind and a BMW M driver's mind, aggressive cams will really make the thing drive smoothly - NOT.


The block is built at there f1 lab people.

Engine block straight from BMW's Formula 1 foundry.
The engine block of the new eight-cylinder comes straight from BMW's light-alloy foundry in Landshut near Munich, where BMW also builds the engine blocks for the Company's Formula 1 racing cars. The cylinder crankcase, in turn, is made of a special aluminium silicon alloy, conventional cylinder liners being replaced by hard silicon crystals. The iron-coated pistons, finally, run directly in the uncoated, honed cylinder bore.
High engine speeds, compression forces and temperatures cause extreme loads acting on the crankcase. Hence, the crankcase is compact in its dimensions and comes in torsionally resistant bedplate design ensuring very precise crankshaft bearing and running conditions. The relatively short, forged crankshaft is likewise very stiff in terms of its flexural and torsional qualities, but weighs only 20 kg or 44 lb.

are you guys saying that bmw is not using proven technology from its F1 cars?Or are you just upset that Audi has no F1 team

Now Skratch, that last statement was a little catty don't you think. Personally I believe BMW moved into F1 because they didn't want to go head to head with Audi in the Sportscars series.:bye2:

[skratch]

Leadfoot

1. there offering launch control because they took away the clutch pedel,People want to luanch there cars a few times you know.I dont drop my clutch alot in My M3 but I can when I want to and know the risks of doing it.Those same risks aply to the smg.We are lucky BMW gave us the LC in the first place.

2.Its not so easy as to hit a button.You need traction off,be in s6 mode and hold the lever until it kicks in.Its there for when you really want to abuse your car.That is the same reason the guys over at M5board did rolling races with all there expensive cars,They didnt want to break stuff dumping the M5 at 5k.Some people will abuse it and pay for it though and Im happy that BMW gave us that option.

3.BMW is not really enviting us,They are just giving us something that we could do with a real munual.We know the risks and to tell you the truth.The last time I luanched my car At 4k I got traction and a little wheel hop and ended up blowing up the pinion in my diff up(not fun).Those damn 285s tires did it to me lol.Don't think that all BMW drivers will drive there cars like that and us LC all the time.If you have ever been in an M5 you should know what Im talking about.When in s6 the car feels like its going to blow up the diff on every shift.Its bangs threw the gears really hard and puts huge shock in the rear end.

3.Cams won't wont hurt the idle that much at all there are plenty of people running cams on there E46 M3s and have no problems with them what so ever.Deluge is spinng the s54 to over 9k rpms with ther setup.Why so quick on the defence there bud...Lots of people do cams to race bread engines.My bro also has a set of shricks on his e36 M3 and has no problems either.

4.The last was a quick left jab lol...Don't take it seriously it was in defence to some guy saying that the f1 was all marketing.Don't tell him that the new V8 has no air mass meters and does all the calculations on the fly like an F1 car cuz he might get a little mad lol

Oh edit how is the SMG 3 not F1 tech...It shifts faster than anything out there right now...even faster than Ferrari's

and the SMG4(aka dual clutch)when in S6 shifts with no clutch is not F1 ? yea that marketing bs all right...oh wait I think that might really be a F1 gear box as mori scratches his head.

and IM not denying that BMW will void the clutch.you people are thinking the whole car is voided or something.

[Leadfoot]

Skatch,

I never take anything that seriously, all the above are fair points. But you must admit that if you want to race someone at the traffic lights you will need LC to stand a chance.

Regardless of what we all personally think, every manufacture is using differing things to sell their products, Audi use Quattro, BMW use their 50/50 weight balance and rwd chassis, the F1 technology thing is another way to make people think they are buying into this racing technology even if it is far remove from the real thing.

BMW sell their M cars in this link with F1 and their belief that their have the ultimate drive machine, but don't for one minute believe the hype that their are providing F1 technology in these cars because there aren't.

Even the technology in the most up to date Ferraris are years old compared to their F1 cars and this incudes the ENZO.

[skratch]

Thats the thing they are using F1 tech and even building the engines there.

They are using things they have learned from there F1 divison and putting its uses in road cars.vanos,doubls vanos,individual throttle bodies all came from there F1 R&D Its takes alot to make a v8 rev like the new M3 and not blow up.That is the reason it is built at there F1 plant.It is using F1 technics to built the block to withstand the high stresses that these engines make.

are you going to tell us next that the Mclaren F1 engine was not F1 either?

Funny thing is that engine is basically 2 euro spec e36 M3 engines put together and all the technolgy from that engine went right into the Euro spec e36 M3. with 321Hp out of a 3.2 back in 1995

Edit can you please prove to me that BMW is not using F1 technology in there cars?You say its marketing then show me some prof that its a regular engine with no advancments and built in a reg BMW plant.

[Leadfoot]

skratch,

I am not saying the technology hasn't come from F1 or other racing series, it's just not the very latest F1 technology. The RS4 has a piston rate higher than any other road engine but does that mean it will be the same as their racing engine.

If you are saying that because the new M3 v8 can rev to 8300rpm makes it F1 technology then the same must be said about the RS4 engine or the S2000 engine because it revs to 9000rpm. All I am saying it there is lots of racing technology in the cars of today, ESP, traction control etc. but it's purely marketing that is drawing the link between the two.

BMW choose the v10 for the M5 engine was purely marketing, the v8 is a much better balance between power, torque and packaging. The reason BMW chosen to copy Audi's DSG gearbox is only because it is a much better gearbox than their present SMG.

Just because the engines are made in the same engine plant as the F1 engines doesn't mean the same technics that work on it are working on your next M3. BMW F1 division produce maybe 50 engines per year and in this they will rebuild this engines maybe more than once or twice. BMW M5/6 and the next M3 will be requiring anything in excess of 10,000 engines per year.

As I say they may be built in the same plant but that's as far as the similarity go.

[skratch]

yes I agree but you can't say that BMW is not using what the learned from there F1 teams.They have also brought over there ion flow or what ever its call knock detection from there F1 cars,There oil systems and the most important part ,the ECU that can run the engine on the fly.

I beg to differ on the rs4 piston speeds.The s54 that was in the e46 are traveling the same speed as an F1 car,hence the reason that they needed a iron block.

This new V8 holds its peak value very high in the rev band, and since HP = torque x RPM/5252 this translates into HP. The S54's 269 lb ft of torque from an NA 3.2 liter 6 is a crazy amount of torque per liter (84 ft lb). Even engines regularly considered to be "torque monsters" such as the Z06's 7 liter V8, make about 67 ft lbs of torque per liter of displacement. Try finding another NA engine with similar torque/liter ratios. The GT3 has about 83 ft lbs/liter, and this is basically a racing motor. The E92 M3's V8 has a ratio of about 74 ft lbs/liter, which is still better than a Z06, believe it or not.

The S54 has a 91 mm stroke compared to 75.4 mm stroke in the new V8. So at the same RPM the S54 pistons are travling about 20% faster. In other words, at its 8K redline the S54's pistons are traveling the same speed as the V8's at 9600 RPM!!!

No wonder the V8 could run all day at 9K. I think BMW went conservative with the V8's HP to prevent the blown up engines they saw with the S54, and to allow them to make the engine block out of much lighter weight aluminum vs. the cast iron S54 design. Less torque also allows for the driveline to be made lighter, too (like F1 cars).

At the same time this leaves a LOT on the table for the CSL!!! I predict at least a 9K redline and over 450 HP

Basically the new V8 and the Rs4 can be closly compared.To this day the S54 is more of a mile stone in technolgy for its time.I still believe that it won't be beaten and the reason it still wins its best engine of the year awards.

Put it this way.If BMW made the s54 a 4 liter it would make over 450hp with its design at the cost of reliability.The design of the S54 is more advanced than the new V8,wich is made to rev with ease with its short stroke

[skratch]

Here is a list of the top engines with the fastest piston speeds.The M3 is like number 4 or 5,I don't know the rs4s if someone has them please post up

1. Honda S2000:
Engine Code: F20C1
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min

2. Lamborghini Gallardo
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min

3. Acura Integra Type R
Engine Code: B18C5
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min

4. BMW M3 (Germany)
Engine Code: S54
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

5. Honda S2000 2004
Engine Code: F22C
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min

6. Honda Integra Type R (JDM)
Engine Code: K20A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4746 Ft/min

7. Acura Integra GSR 2001
Engine Code: B18C
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8200rpm
Piston Speed: 4687.67 Ft/min

8. Saleen S7
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 4.13" X 4.00"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min

9. Acura TSX
Engine Code: K24A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.90"
Redline: 7100rpm
Piston Speed: 4615 Ft/min

10. Suzuki Hayabusa Sport Prototype
Engine Code: W701
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 2.48"
Redline: 11000rpm
Piston Speed: 4546.67 Ft/min

11. Honda Civic Type R
Engine Code: B16B
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.03"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4545 Ft/min

12. Toyota Celica GTS / Matrix XRS 2001
Engine Code: 2ZZ-GE
Bore/Stroke: 3.23" X 3.35"
Redline: 8100rpm
Piston Speed: 4522.5 Ft/min

13. Honda Prelude Type S (JDM)
Engine Code: H22A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4462.5 Ft/min

14. Acura RSX Type S
Engine Code: K20A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.38" X 3.38"
Redline: 7900rpm
Piston Speed: 4450.33 Ft/min

15. Ferrari 360 Modena (incl. Challenge, Stradale, etc)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.11"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4405.83 Ft/min

16. Lamborghini Murcielago
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.42"
Redline: 7600rpm
Piston Speed: 4332 Ft/min

17. McLaren F1
Engine Code: N/A (BMW V12)
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.43"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4287.5 Ft/min

18. Renault Clio 2.0 RS 2003
Engine Code: F4R
Bore/Stroke: 3.26" X 3.66"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4270 Ft/min

19. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 2004
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.94" X 3.01"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4264.17 Ft/min

20. Pagani Zonda C12S
Engine Code: M120 7.3 AMG
Bore/Stroke: 3.6" X 3.64"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4246.67 Ft/min

21. Peugeot 206RC 2004
Engine Code: EW10 J4 S
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.46"
Redline: 7300rpm
Piston Speed: 4209.67 Ft/min

22. Porsche Carrera GT
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.86" X 2.99"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4186 Ft/min

23. Acura NSX-T
Engine Code: C32B
Bore/Stroke: 3.66" X 3.07"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4093.33 Ft/min

24. BMW M5 2002
Engine Code: S62
Bore/Stroke: 3.70" X 3.50"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4083.33 Ft/min

25. BMW M5 E60
Engine Code: S65 (?)
Bore/Stroke: 3.62" X 2.96"
Redline: 8250rpm
Piston Speed: 4070 Ft/min

26. Nissan Primera W20V
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 7200rpm
Piston Speed: 4068 Ft/min

27. Ferrari Enzo
Engine Code: F140
Bore/Stroke: 3.62" X 2.96"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 3946.67 Ft/min

28. Ferrari 575 Maranello
Engine Code: 650 V21
Bore/Stroke: 3.50" X 3.03"
Redline: 7750rpm
Piston Speed: 3913.75 Ft/min

[Leadfoot]

yes I agree but you can't say that BMW is not using what the learned from there F1 teams.They have also brought over there ion flow or what ever its call knock detection from there F1 cars,There oil systems and the most important part ,the ECU that can run the engine on the fly.

I beg to differ on the rs4 piston speeds.The s54 that was in the e46 are traveling the same speed as an F1 car,hence the reason that they needed a iron block.

Well then what did I not say it all marketing, Audi has always stated that the RS4's piston rate is the highest of any road car. You are saying that the old M3 was equally as high proving it's purely marketing for Audi to say such things.:D


This new V8 holds its peak value very high in the rev band, and since HP = torque x RPM/5252 this translates into HP. The S54's 269 lb ft of torque from an NA 3.2 liter 6 is a crazy amount of torque per liter (84 ft lb). Even engines regularly considered to be "torque monsters" such as the Z06's 7 liter V8, make about 67 ft lbs of torque per liter of displacement. Try finding another NA engine with similar torque/liter ratios. The GT3 has about 83 ft lbs/liter, and this is basically a racing motor. The E92 M3's V8 has a ratio of about 74 ft lbs/liter, which is still better than a Z06, believe it or not.

The torque has never be the problem, it's at which point all of this torque is produced. The M3s I have always driven are very leak at low revs, something the M3v8 will hopefully address.:rolleyes:


I think BMW went conservative with the V8's HP to prevent the blown up engines they saw with the S54, and to allow them to make the engine block out of much lighter weight aluminum vs. the cast iron S54 design. Less torque also allows for the driveline to be made lighter, too (like F1 cars).

Again this is what separates Audi's thinking to that of BMW, they are looking for less torque to make everything lighter. Great but they are starting in the wrong place, lighten the bodywork, the wheels the suspension, even the glass before you lighten the drive system. Doing so only ends up causing warranty problems later on. :deal:

Power provides the with out right acceleration through the gears but torque is what gives a car usable acceleration, the type that is important in-gear. I myself am only interested in the latter and I enjoy using the engine's low range power to provide a relaxing drive, as I have said on more than one occasion, the kart gives me all the frills I will ever need.:thumb:

Oh by the way I worked it out for you and I was right about the fastest piston rate, the RS4's piston rate is 4972.5ft/min.

[7:53 RS6]

Another BMW (Bavarian Motherfuckin' Workshit) car with stupid design, stupid traction control, stupid RWD, stupid interior, stupid gearbox and stupid engine...BMW really sucks...and Audi will kick them off soon with the new nuclear warheads RS5, RS6 and R8 V10...i just wait, if anybody saw autobild.de and automotorsport.de tests with Q7 against X5 and Cayenne Facelift again with 1 year on the market Q7 wins, A3 against stupid ugly awfull 1 series, again A3 wins, and the new M5 Touring against S6 Avant again S6 Avant wins, any car that Audi is making right now is better, faster, beautiful, sexier, impressive, more dynamic and stabile than the BMW rival, so WTF do we talk about those stupid BMW cars?!I'm sick of BMW's and their "SUPER DRIVERS"..."i have an BMW and i can beat everyone cause i BMW"....stupid people with very very stupid and ugly cars....yakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Are you 15 years old?
At times i feel childish even geting in the bord these days, what happend, i dont know. At times i feel kind of childish to even whright here and do the debate. But when i see your post i kind of feel pretty mature anyway, thanks.:eye:

[skratch]

actually its 4866 for the rs4 wich is very good,but its not a inline 6 wich is a hell of alot harder to do since you need a very long crank.The s54 can spin to 9k with ease also and im not sure what tuners can get out of the rs4 but I would think 9k should be doable.

what is it about the low end torque?wow the rs4 makes torque 1000 rpms sooner(on paper).WIth the less weight and drivline losses and gearing the M3 will feel faster in ANY gear and any rpm.

remember its the gearing that puts the torque to the ground and the M will put more down...EVERYWHER.An M5 will pull cleanly from 2k in 7th gear all the way to 200 Mph

you should go test drive a 335 if you like torque.Im sure that car will put a smile on your face.It makes gobs more torque than any M3 lol and there putting down almost 300ftlb wich is like 340 at the crank.

Its not just marketing for BMW saying its F1 tech,they are in fact building them at there f1 plants...If its didnt use there parts and processes to make why wouldnt they just builf them at there M plant like the old M3s?

[SuperstarDriver]

BMW will never be technologier than the Audi...AUDI MEANS VORSPRUNG DURCH TECHNIK...PROGRESS BY TECHNOLOGY...look for example at the DSG (BMW doesn't have at this moment one, but audi has invented it and is faster than any gearbox in the world), look at the MagneRide from S5,R8,TT Coupe to know what it means a perfect damper, look at the Quattro efficieny to see how Audi kicks off the bmw cars because of it, audi is able to outperform any bmw with less weight and bigger engine just by having super perfect QUATTRO 4WD and DRC for example...Audi is capable of destroying (if it hasn't been now destroyed the reputation of M Power cars) with way more technology and more advanced car studies...QUATTRO TORQUE VECTORING (THE PREMIER IS FROM A5/S5), LED TECHNOLOGY FROM R8 AND A5/S5 (is the first car manufacturer to have this kind of super technology on road cars), BANG & OLUFSEN EXTREME HI-FI SOUND SYSTEM THE BEST IN THE INDUSTRY, ALUMINIUM SPACE FRAME (THE BEST IN THE INDUSTRY OF SHASSY), FOTOVOLTAIC AIR BUCKET ROOF (PREMIER IN THE INDUSTRY), HIGH REV SUPER TORQUE AND POWER ENGINE (THE RS4) WHO DOESN'T COMPARE TO THE NEW M3 ENGINE...THE ENGINE FROM RS4 HAS MORE TORQUE IN WAY MORE VARIATION OF THE REV'S...AND THAT'S ALL I HAD REMEBER FOR NOW, BUT I WILL POST THE BEST TECHNOLOGY FROM AUDI SOON!AUDI IS THE LEADER IN THE BEST MARKET TECHNOLOGY IN THE WORLD!TEHY GO NUTTS EVERY TIME THEY LAUNCH A CAR...

[Mori]

AUDI IS GOD!!!! BMW IS FOR MORTALS!!! AUDI ALWAYS WINS!!!


OMG. This is getting boring. :)

[Lateknight]

actually its 4866 for the rs4 wich is very good,but its not a inline 6 wich is a hell of alot harder to do since you need a very long crank.The s54 can spin to 9k with ease also and im not sure what tuners can get out of the rs4 but I would think 9k should be doable.



I beg to differ on the the piston speed of the RS4.
The 4163cc V8 in the RS4 shares the same stroke as the Gallardo @ 3.65" (or 92.8mm for us in metric world)
If the Piston speed of the Gallardo is 4866.67 ft/min @ 8000rpm then the RS4 will actually be 5018.75 ft/min @8250rpm. (a 3.125% increase in revs on the same stroke)

I'll let you lot get back to your infantile Audi vs BMW contest. :hihi:

[skratch]

I beg to differ on the the piston speed of the RS4.
The 4163cc V8 in the RS4 shares the same stroke as the Gallardo @ 3.65" (or 92.8mm for us in metric world)
If the Piston speed of the Gallardo is 4866.67 ft/min @ 8000rpm then the RS4 will actually be 5018.75 ft/min @8250rpm. (a 3.125% increase in revs on the same stroke)

I'll let you lot get back to your infantile Audi vs BMW contest. :hihi:

your right my mistake I was using a 8000 rpm redline 3.65*8250/6 = 5018

I didnt notice that the galardo shares the same concept

[skratch]

Hey superstar chill out before u pop a vein buddy

dsg is not in any S car yet fool....if its soo damn good why dont they use it in the rs4?Because it cant handle the power and revs....lol maybe BMW knew a few things when they say why they use a low torque high rev/hp concept

you want to see some nifty technology...watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMvdu22tGYA&mode=related&search=

[Leadfoot]

actually its 4866 for the rs4 wich is very good,but its not a inline 6 wich is a hell of alot harder to do since you need a very long crank.The s54 can spin to 9k with ease also and im not sure what tuners can get out of the rs4 but I would think 9k should be doable.

what is it about the low end torque?wow the rs4 makes torque 1000 rpms sooner(on paper).WIth the less weight and drivline losses and gearing the M3 will feel faster in ANY gear and any rpm.

remember its the gearing that puts the torque to the ground and the M will put more down...EVERYWHER.An M5 will pull cleanly from 2k in 7th gear all the way to 200 Mph

Both of us got it wrong but in the end the correct result still shows that the RS4 has the fastest piston rate of any road engine. As for the M5 pulling cleanly from 2000rpm in 7th gear, OMG is that amazing or what :vhmmm: well actually it's not that amazing at all, my S4v8 would pull cleanly from only 400rpm in 6th gear that is only 10mph not the over 55mph that the M5 needs. So please Skratch when talking about pulling power choice something a little better than an M cars.:hihi:


you should go test drive a 335 if you like torque.Im sure that car will put a smile on your face.It makes gobs more torque than any M3 lol and there putting down almost 300ftlb wich is like 340 at the crank.

Its not just marketing for BMW saying its F1 tech,they are in fact building them at there f1 plants...If its didnt use there parts and processes to make why wouldnt they just builf them at there M plant like the old M3s?

Yeah I have and to tell you the truth if it had come with awd and a better interior I would have brought one right away. This is a much better car than the M3 and in my opinion will be even beter than the next M3 because of where the torque band is compared to that of the M3v8.

[SuperstarDriver]

yeah right...bmw better in technology than audi?!haha...sweet dreams man...an engine like V8 from RS4 will never be better...never ever!!!

[skratch]

Leadfoot an M5 will pull cleanly in seventh gear at 10mph too.That is what I was trying to tell you lol.The gearing in that car is very agressive and puts the power down to the ground.

The 335ix is out too lol maybe you should go take it for a spin.It also comes with 4 doors and with under 2000 american dollars you can make the car have over 400hp and 450ftlb


I can pull fine in 3rd gear in my M3 from 1500 rpm...not something I like to do but if I were lazy it pulls fine.

Here is a dyno of your S4 leadfoot...Its low end isnt that great and I wish they started the pull sooner so we could see how much torque you car is putting down at 400 rpm.

can you video your car in 6th gear at 400 rpms basically starting off in 6 gear and pulling to like 40...
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/512/stockcm9.jpg

[Leadfoot]

Sorry skratch, I no longer have my beloved S4 but I am sure there is someone on the site with a S4 that could video the car pulling away from 400rpm, it's something mine could do all day long.

The torque curve you have provide for the S4 looks totally different to any I have ever seen, can you explain this?

This is any other example.

http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/s442v8.pdf

[skratch]

Sorry skratch, I no longer have my beloved S4 but I am sure there is someone on the site with a S4 that could video the car pulling away from 400rpm, it's something mine could do all day long.

The torque curve you have provide for the S4 looks totally different to any I have ever seen, can you explain this?

Thats ok if some one could chime in later on would be cool.

The reason that it looks different is this is a real car being dynoed not a company selling stuff showing you crank numbers.

It was a dynapack that takes off the wheels so it even reads a little higher than rolling dynos.

We are doing a huge AUDI dyno day in a few weeks.It will be on a dynodynamics allwheel drive dyno.I will be bringing my stage 2 B5 s4 there and there should be a few other cars too(hopefully a stock B6 s4.

edit here is where i got that dyno from.
http://www.audiworld.com/news/05/b6dyno/content2_.shtml

[SuperstarDriver]

Audi almost is the inventor of the supreme TURBOCHARGED ENGINES and they are the best in the world on doing that...look at the old RS6 Saloon and RS4 as well...super high toque at low rpm and has beat the crap BMW normal aspirated engines...and therefore the new RS4 has take the challenge to the BMW territory to show them how an V8 normal aspirated super high rev engine could be made when Audi wants that...i am so desperate to show the new RS6 and power values and all of it that i'm just pissing my head to take a nap of 5-6months until it will be on the market...i just wait for it so bad...hmmm...

[sticky]

actually its 4866 for the rs4 wich is very good,but its not a inline 6 wich is a hell of alot harder to do since you need a very long crank.The s54 can spin to 9k with ease also and im not sure what tuners can get out of the rs4 but I would think 9k should be doable.

what is it about the low end torque?wow the rs4 makes torque 1000 rpms sooner(on paper).WIth the less weight and drivline losses and gearing the M3 will feel faster in ANY gear and any rpm.

remember its the gearing that puts the torque to the ground and the M will put more down...EVERYWHER.An M5 will pull cleanly from 2k in 7th gear all the way to 200 Mph

you should go test drive a 335 if you like torque.Im sure that car will put a smile on your face.It makes gobs more torque than any M3 lol and there putting down almost 300ftlb wich is like 340 at the crank.

Its not just marketing for BMW saying its F1 tech,they are in fact building them at there f1 plants...If its didnt use there parts and processes to make why wouldnt they just builf them at there M plant like the old M3s?
Not just the crank, the length of the camshafts in a high revving I6 make it difficult to eliminate vibration which is why the S54 is so damn impressive.

[sticky]

yeah right...bmw better in technology than audi?!haha...sweet dreams man...an engine like V8 from RS4 will never be better...never ever!!!
Could someone disconnect the internet from the village idiots hut in romania?

[skratch]

Audi almost is the inventor of the supreme TURBOCHARGED ENGINES and they are the best in the world on doing that...look at the old RS6 Saloon and RS4 as well...super high toque at low rpm and has beat the crap BMW normal aspirated engines...and therefore the new RS4 has take the challenge to the BMW territory to show them how an V8 normal aspirated super high rev engine could be made when Audi wants that...i am so desperate to show the new RS6 and power values and all of it that i'm just pissing my head to take a nap of 5-6months until it will be on the market...i just wait for it so bad...hmmm...

I love reading your posts my friend...Keep up the good humor:trash:

[Benman]

Are you 15 years old?
At times i feel childish even geting in the bord these days, what happend, i dont know...

Don't take it personal Gote... similar story with LamboM.. started out big talk about how the Caddy and Denali were pure rubbish (for anything) then it turns out he later turns a ripe old 16 years old... see, he already knew everything! ;) So yeah, my hunch is "SuperStar" is in the 14-17 year old range. ;)

Ben:addict:

[Leadfoot]

So what, I just love his posts they are some of the highlights of the forum and with such brand loyalty we know he will never be tempted by the dark side that is BMW.:hihi:

[sticky]

So what, I just love his posts they are some of the highlights of the forum

Says a lot about your taste.

[Erik]

Same old people involved again...you know who you are and you have been warned.

I'm closing this thread. I don't have time to bother about stuff like this, takes too much positive energy in the mornings so behave or leave.