Video: Audi RS4 Avant (B7 V8) vs BMW M5 E39 SS

[Clio16V]

Here's a short video of a slightly tuned e39 BMW M5 vs Audi V8 RS4 Avant

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5zpUdX0U-oQ

[Leadfoot]

Here's a short video of a slightly tuned e39 BMW M5 vs Audi V8 RS4 Avant

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5zpUdX0U-oQ

I am not surprised that a tunes M5 will beat a standard RS4, if a standard M5 wil pull away from a CSL then you would at the very least expect a tuned one to do the same against a RS4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVJZ55YpTv0

[piero]

Sure the M5 is fast, but the RS4 has not kms enough.....I'm 21000kms and the foot in ass at 5500 rpms is impressive!

[Fab]

I'm not surprised either.

The E39 is 400hp + 29hp = 429hp and also 2wd. Both weight approx the same (M5 1720kg, RS4 1750kg)

So well done M5 for this plain vanilla straight run...

Just for info a stock M5 E39 numbers are :

0-100kmph : 5.6sec
1000m : 24.7sec

No comment of course on handling and braking capabilities.

[Clio16V]

Leadfoot,

I've also seen that movie a long time ago, but i don't the CSL goes full at it all the way.
You can hear that the CSL holds back a little. http://www.bmw-drivers.de/msm/video/1.wmv

I like to see a movie M5 e39 vs M3CSL!

[Erik]

FYI the RS4 is on 18" winter tires and the M5 is on summer tires.

But I have no idea how this could have affected the outcome.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=92249&highlight=rs4+bmw+m5

http://www.m5board.com/photopost/data/516/rs2.jpg

http://www.m5board.com/photopost/data/516/rs5.jpg

[Leadfoot]

I though with the new range of driver's cars that Audi are producing the BMW camp would be a little more silent but boy was I wrong. They aren't happy being second dog at the moment and they are turning to every video and model in the range present and past to disprove the RS4 as one of the best driver's car for the money and with one of the best engines.

The site has more BMW fans in the discussion than at any time, sure some are defecting to Audi while others are here only to start arguments and internal bickering. Just think what thing will be like when both the M3 and S5 finally hit the streets.

[Fab]

I got it !!!! Of course !!!

The RS4 driver was paid by M5forum to be at 70% power :harass:

bad boy BMW bad boy :nono: :doh:

[KK265]

Probably M5 is chipped and uses suspicious fuel....

[piero]

Why such a big subjectivity??...Is it that hard to accept that an M5 is faster in straight line??

[KK265]

Why such a big subjectivity??...Is it that hard to accept that an M5 is faster in straight line??

An M5 is not faster.This M5 is not stock so is faster.

[Leadfoot]

I got it !!!! Of course !!!

The RS4 driver was paid by M5forum to be at 70% power :harass:

bad boy BMW bad boy :nono: :doh:

Fab, you know what I mean. With each video posted by the BMW camp, the Audi camp can show an opposite result. I have had both brand and I prefer the Audi on every level not only the performance front. I think we should take all videos as they are only one person's ability at racing over another's and not a true reflection of the abilities of the cars themselves.

Everyone here know that a RS4 is a much better handling car than either the old or new M5 - M6 - M3 - ZM Coupe, but as this would show a BMW getting beat they choose to show the one thing that their cars are good at which is going very quickly. I believe that all the current Audi S and RS model outclass their BMW M counterparts as an overall package. If they prefer an inferior package that is a little quicker in a straight line then who am I to argument with them.:thumb:

[piero]

M3 is not inferior on track than a stock RS4 B5 for example....motorsport si good, as Audi, in making track cars....an not only in straight line, it's wrong.

Both have their advantages, but we can't say motorsport is bad on tracks, look at CSL time on the ring, it kills all RS models!

[Leadfoot]

I have driven enough tuned cars to know that the little done to the M5 makes a huge difference to the car. Place a standard M5 against this one and the difference between the two would be remarkable.

And just to prove this here is two standard M3s, one running 95oct standard unleaded and the other super unleaded fuel.

http://www.evo.co.uk/front_website/advertorials/bp_ultimate/popupvid.php?vid=22Feb07UnleadedAccelM3

If only 2extra octane can improve a car, what can a slight tune not do.

[Fab]

Fab, you know what I mean. Of course I know and stock vs stock the RS4 is definitely ahead :rs4kiss:

Bms are good cars what disturbs me (my view of course) is the image you get when driving one but mainly the bangle style and also the sooooo ugly interior design and sooo pooor quality :doh:

But I can understand others like them....

[Leadfoot]

M3 is not inferior on track than a stock RS4 B5 for example....motorsport si good, as Audi, in making track cars....an not only in straight line, it's wrong.

Both have their advantages, but we can't say motorsport is bad on tracks, look at CSL time on the ring, it kills all RS models!

ONCE AGAIN THE CSL RAISES IT'S HEAD AGAIN.

As I said in my previous post BMW fans need to look to the past to find a car to better the RS4. It's a sorry state of affairs for the BMW brand when all it's current range of cars are found wanting and they have to go back to the CSL to find a better track car than the RS4.

If you talk track history, Audi has a better racing history than BMW in the past and present. 5 Le Mans wins and numerous rally victories, where is all of BMW's racing victories. They have all come on the back of other teams being the engine supplier where as Audi have done the whole thing themselves. Even in the DTM Audi have always performed better than BMW so their track record isn't that great in comparison.

[KK265]

M3 is not inferior on track than a stock RS4 B5 for example....motorsport si good, as Audi, in making track cars....an not only in straight line, it's wrong.

Both have their advantages, but we can't say motorsport is bad on tracks, look at CSL time on the ring, it kills all RS models!
CSL is a special car and uses special tires for this,no air condition usually,thinner glasses etc..It is not a car for everyday use.The noise is much louder than a stock E 46 M3.Cars are not only speed.If was only speed all of us would buy radicals,caterhams,dookenvoort etc.For example I personally like to talk with co driver during a trip.A CSL driver can not.Need to cry.With the money a CSL costs, you buy a modified EVO which is much quicker.Go to an EVO forum and tell about CSL.The guys there are laughing about BMWs as i do when it is raining in Greece with CSL drivers and Michelin cup tires...

[Ruergard]

ONCE AGAIN THE CSL RAISES IT'S HEAD AGAIN.

As I said in my previous post BMW fans need to look to the past to find a car to better the RS4. It's a sorry state of affairs for the BMW brand when all it's current range of cars are found wanting and they have to go back to the CSL to find a better track car than the RS4.

If you talk track history, Audi has a better racing history than BMW in the past and present. 5 Le Mans wins and numerous rally victories, where is all of BMW's racing victories. They have all come on the back of other teams being the engine supplier where as Audi have done the whole thing themselves. Even in the DTM Audi have always performed better than BMW so their track record isn't that great in comparison.

Don't forget IMSA M8! :thumb:

And the reason that Audi would have to stop racing in that series after a while...:king:

Wasn't surprised at all over this movie. More horsepowers and RWD. Even a stock M5 would walk away from a RS4 in higher speeds. But when the road gets twisty...:incar:

[Leadfoot]

I sorry to get a little P-off when someone brings up the CSL.

We all have talk this car to death, we all know it's the best achievement that BMW has ever had and quite possibly ever will.

The are on an Audi website and it seems to me that the only car the RS4 is ever compared against is BMWs and the CSL especially. What about the rest, the EVO, the C55, the soon to be released Lexus IS-F, what about these cars. I personally rate the C55 and soon C63 more of a rival than the new M3 as the BMW is too extreme to be regarded as a mainstream family car that the RS4, C63 and IS-F are.

The C63 will most definitely be the quickest what with 480hp and all that torque to play with and we know that it's comfort isn't in question the only thing it will fall down in my opinion is looks and interior design. The IS-F is an unknown quantity, it's looks are in question but the build quality isn't and neither is it's dealers which are the best in the world, but it this enough to win over the existing customers that normally buy the others?

Lets start to talk about the other great cars that are every bit as good as the BMW M3.:thumb:

[7:53 RS6]

I have driven enough tuned cars to know that the little done to the M5 makes a huge difference to the car. Place a standard M5 against this one and the difference between the two would be remarkable.

And just to prove this here is two standard M3s, one running 95oct standard unleaded and the other super unleaded fuel.

http://www.evo.co.uk/front_website/advertorials/bp_ultimate/popupvid.php?vid=22Feb07UnleadedAccelM3

If only 2extra octane can improve a car, what can a slight tune not do.


I have to say i think its the opposit many times, so called tuned cars often dont preform better than stock. I know plenty of exampels of this. The guys go to ther lokal tuner at the corner, and they fall for the.... wow pay 300euro and get 30+ extra hp in a few min:applause:

Well RUF cars do drive well, but hey it cost more to tune than 300- 700 euro:hahahehe:

Well i would love to see the black car as well whit the better fuel to make a pointIts quite common that to identical cars differ in speed anyway, still whit the same fuel. There could always be slightly variations in 2 identical car. Why dident they drive even the black car whit the better fuel to prove the point. How can we say the fuel was the thing that made the silver car faster when they dident drive the black car whit the better fuel as well to see if even the black car then would be faster. (sorry ,or have i missed somthing?).

Up in speead a new RS4 is not that fast, off the line it is. RS4 will lose up in speed even to a plain stock e39 M5 in a rolling start.

[Leadfoot]

7:53RS6,

When releasing a new fuel like what BP has done they will have tested the product to death and I very much doubt they would have been so amateurish as to not check both car were equal is performance.

One thing I forgot to add was that the car's ignition system has to be re-tuned to the new fuel and with this done the car is general produces on average 5% more power. For an M3 that is the equivalent to extra 17hp. This is a subject I should now a little about as it's a part of my business.

Maybe M&M is right and even a small improvement in PTW achieves this results.;)

[Leadfoot]

Up in speead a new RS4 is not that fast, off the line it is. RS4 will lose up in speed even to a plain stock e39 M5 in a rolling start.

I totally agree that the RS4 will lose out to the M5 (a quick one that is). Think about it, their are near enough equal in weight and power, but the M5 has a lot more torque than the RS4 and we all know that it is torque and not power that aid acceleration. The new M5 even in P400 mode will win and even quicker due to the fact that it has SMG and 7 gears.

We both will agree that on the track rwd is the more entertaining but not always in lap times and that is where the RS4 has the better of all current BMW M models, including the M6. Maybe the new M3 will regain the glory of the CSL, but of recent results the expectations aren't that high.

The public might be impressed with a carbon roof panel, but such things don't make the car, just look at the M6 and heavy tub of a thing with all the finesse of a 2lb hammer. As a more complete car the RS4 is way better than all the M models, it is a better day to day drive, is equally at home in all conditions and it's fit and finish makes it the more pleasant place to be.

You tell me which choice is the better one.

1/ The car the excites in the last 10% but is only average the rest of the time.

OR

2/ The car the ultimately doesn't in the final 10% but is ultimate more rewarding the rest of the time.

This is what defines each driver, I realise that I only drive at the final 10% on a track and that will account for only 1% of my life with the car. So for me the choice is easy.

[7:53 RS6]

7:53RS6,

When releasing a new fuel like what BP has done they will have tested the product to death and I very much doubt they would have been so amateurish as to not check both car were equal is performance.

One thing I forgot to add was that the car's ignition system has to be re-tuned to the new fuel and with this done the car is general produces on average 5% more power. For an M3 that is the equivalent to extra 17hp. This is a subject I should now a little about as it's a part of my business.

Maybe M&M is right and even a small improvement in PTW achieves this results.;)

Yes you have a point about BP about this issu i agree Ledi.
Still my reaction was only it dident come out thru this video if they also tested the to cars on same petrol, and it dident come out if the just put fuel in or if they also done some ignition as you say.

Well anyway i always drive Shell V-power (99 RON) my self. To be frank, this is not anything i feel like this fuel is boosting the car up a level vs normal fuel. I dont feel any diffrence at all. Still i want it in my car, kind of the same when im on track i always drave whit the klima aircon of, still of course i dont feel any diffrens:) I have no ide if i get 4 extra hp if turn of klima still i do it:jlol: It probalbly dont make any diffrence at all. Still i do it, call it my kind of tuning. Still as i understan even if a klima aircon is turned of, well it still steal a few hp. One would nead to totaly get the thing out(to save a few hp:confused: ) and at the same time save up to around 25-35 kg, yes thats what i herd the whole klima thing is in kg.

Anyway i prefer to have klima air, so i would never take it out compleatly.

AMS(auto motor sport mag) here did a test whit www.rototest.com on a 997 carrera s, they notic that whit v-power vs regular fuel the 997 s gain 10hp.
They did just fuel the car up, not re mapping or anything. V-power gave 10 hp.
What 10 v-power hp give in a drag or track in real life, i have no ide. And i have as i said never feel any diffrenc when on v-power vs regular. Still im always on v-power.

[Leadfoot]

In the past I have dealt with both Shell and BP fuels. I preferred BP's ordinary unleaded and Shell's super unleaded, but they only really show much of a difference when set-up right and in something that is already in a very high state of tune.

I used BP Ultimate in the kart and the main difference I would have seen is in the pick-up from low revs using the BP Ultimate.

But this 102 Octane BP Ultimate is something new and might be the cheapest form of improving a car's performance.

[rks838]

one note - the new M3 will be coming in sedan form as well as coupe and convertible - THAT is going to be the comparison to make!!

[Leadfoot]

one note - the new M3 will be coming in sedan form as well as coupe and convertible - THAT is going to be the comparison to make!!

I am not so sure that is a wise thing as the last time they did it the saloon hardly sold, in fact you couldn't give the thing away.

The M3 is a coupe and is only regarded as such, much in the same way as the RS models where originally only thought of as estates. Audi persevered with the saloon form and now in Europe it accounts for almost half of it's sales.

I wonder will either of the two companies BMW and Audi ever bring out an M or RS model with a diesel engine?

[Leadfoot]

Here the video of the white RS4 (standard) vs the Hartge M5 (525hp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Amu9LJDQLM

Now M5 standard vs RS4 standard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C31PJVQy8DQ

Now a standard E39 M5 vs standard E60 M5 P400 mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cff_7PH5Aiw

Now another E39 M5 (470hp) vs E60 M5 P500 mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD_igxA7F0k

Now you can call me stupid, but I would like someone to explain how a standard M5 would work with the RS4 in any form of a race.

[buyalemon]

I think it's very logic that the E39 M5 i faster! Stock M5 produces around 367 hp on the wheels ..the RS4 is about the same! The gearing in the RS4 is made for speeds under 180 km/h rather than speeds above 200 km/h!

The size of the M5 engine also contributes ...500 nm gives it a better range (see the difference in rolling races between S4 and M3:s) where S4:s allways gets a jump of the M3 with the torque!..perhaps not usefull in this sprint but in real life driving torque is more useful than 8250 rpm hp!

[KK265]

Yesterday i asked from a friend to make a video between our cars but he denied.He told me that he does not like to loose....His car is only lowered.He told me that his car is slower than a stock carrera s.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9692/rs4andm3xp4.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rs4andm3xp4.jpg)

[7:53 RS6]

Here the video of the white RS4 (standard) vs the Hartge M5 (525hp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Amu9LJDQLM

Now M5 standard vs RS4 standard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C31PJVQy8DQ

Now a standard E39 M5 vs standard E60 M5 P400 mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cff_7PH5Aiw

Now another E39 M5 (470hp) vs E60 M5 P500 mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD_igxA7F0k

Now you can call me stupid, but I would like someone to explain how a standard M5 would work with the RS4 in any form of a race.

Only thing i can say is, dont make up your mind thru all diffrent kinds of video, it will never make sense. The second video you post whit M5, RS4 and porsche, well what kind of drag race is that wherecars cant drive even 2 side by side, as well you as well as me as i said all along must understand we dont know to much about anything about all these videos.

As i said it dont make sense that the CSL would leave the RS4 in this video in begining of thread as much as it did, them cars should be more or less even is my guess. As well it dont make sense a RS4 will leave the M5 as it did in the 3 car video you post.

I driven a few race at airport whit Gustav. All i know is M5 is fast, 700 nm E55 is to lose every time. I drove 2 E55 476 stock hp and 700 nm, one sedan and one Avant, they lose every time against new M5 in a rolling start from 50km(30)

One time my friend drove the E55 alone(sedan) and we was 3 in M5, still M5 win slightly at the end.
The M5 even win against my frinds 550hp 996 teckart turbo, just slightly, and i would call them to cars pretty much even steven.
There is a therad here about it, think its over one year back. Only cars to be more or less even steve whit M5 as i rememberd was 550 techart 996 turbo ,Gallardo and viper SRT 10. Here M5 could lose slightly and win slightly. Most other cars M5 did mostly win.

[BigRick]

History repeats its self once more. Another comparison with an out of its class car. Another win for the RS4 from my point of view. And this time it needed to be tuned!!!

For a complete review of both car strenghts and weaknesses: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=119784

Quotes from the review:
It's a terrifically bad idea to design a car with the weight of a V8 engine hung entirely over the front axle. It hurts weight distribution, generates a lot of polar moment of inertia, overworks the front tires and brakes, upsets ride quality and makes the steering heavier.

None of this seems to matter in the 2007 Audi RS 4. Using just such a layout, Audi has managed to out-fun the 2007 BMW M5, one of the world's most respected driver's cars. And it's done so for tens of thousands of fewer dollars.

The RS 4 didn't succeed all alone, though. It had help from the competition.

and another one:

But it's another story in the M5. For starters, it sounds like a fish in a blender when it fires up. And the new six-speed manual tranny isn't what I was hoping for. A combination of longish throws and slender gates demands a deliberate, three-step shifting technique that rubs me the wrong way.

And the thing feels generally bulky, giving it a distinct "dad's car" vibe. Careful. Don't scratch it. I'm not feeling very much M5-ness here. What I see is just a BMW 5 Series with a lot of horsepower. You know what I mean?

Thanks again for pointing this video out, it really makes me love my RS4 more and more. :)

Cheers

[Leadfoot]

The M5 even win against my frinds 550hp 996 teckart turbo, just slightly, and i would call them to cars pretty much even steven.
There is a therad here about it, think its over one year back. Only cars to be more or less even steve whit M5 as i rememberd was 550 techart 996 turbo ,Gallardo and viper SRT 10. Here M5 could lose slightly and win slightly. Most other cars M5 did mostly win.

Thank you mate, this just shows the bull sh#t that M&M talked about in the RS4 vs CSL thread, PTW (POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO). A 550hp Porsche 911 has a ptw at least 70hp minimum more than an M5 but as you said the M5 won this race.

There isn't any doubt that the E60 M5 is much quicker than a RS4, but with these video I was trying to show that the RS4 and the E39 M5 look to be pretty even in the way their accelerate from a rolling start but we all know that from a standing start with it's awd and the fact that the old M5 didn't have LC that the RS4 would walk it. It would be so far gone by the time they had reach 200km/h that the M5 wouldn't be able to reel it in as their approached the 250km/h limiter.

The one thing that the two videos between the two M5s showed is that the new M5 with it's LC and 7spd SMGIII box is way quicker than the old car standard or tuned, in P400 mode against a standard M5 and in P500 mode against a 470hp tuned M5.

If this thread was about a M5 in P400 mode beating a RS4 I like most here wouldn't have battered an eyelid.

[brad]

This thread reminds me of when I was in a fish and chip shop some ten or so years ago. The enthusiastic proprietor reached down for one of his fat fried delights and placed it on his shoulder. He then looked around to the bemused patrons and said, "You know what I've got mate? I've got a chip on my shoulder!"

[bastordd]

Still I am has wait of the true video...
M5 E39 normal vs RS4 normal and car!!!
This m5 is tunned and have 30 hp more!

[Leadfoot]

Still I am has wait of the true video...
M5 E39 normal vs RS4 normal and car!!!
This m5 is tunned and have 30 hp more!

How's about the next best thing.

Standard E39 M5 vs Audi S4v8 Avant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkuJusnqP6g

Now we all know how much slower a S4 is to an RS4, hell I tries one in my S4 and got destroyed.

Now re-look the M6.COM video of M5 vs RS4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodSqJPKK8M

As I said something fishy about this.

[bastordd]

leedfoot The video of the RS4 continues to be against a modified M5

[7:53 RS6]

I totally agree that the RS4 will lose out to the M5 (a quick one that is). Think about it, their are near enough equal in weight and power, but the M5 has a lot more torque than the RS4 and we all know that it is torque and not power that aid acceleration. The new M5 even in P400 mode will win and even quicker due to the fact that it has SMG and 7 gears.

We both will agree that on the track rwd is the more entertaining but not always in lap times and that is where the RS4 has the better of all current BMW M models, including the M6. Maybe the new M3 will regain the glory of the CSL, but of recent results the expectations aren't that high.

The public might be impressed with a carbon roof panel, but such things don't make the car, just look at the M6 and heavy tub of a thing with all the finesse of a 2lb hammer. As a more complete car the RS4 is way better than all the M models, it is a better day to day drive, is equally at home in all conditions and it's fit and finish makes it the more pleasant place to be.

You tell me which choice is the better one.

1/ The car the excites in the last 10% but is only average the rest of the time.

OR

2/ The car the ultimately doesn't in the final 10% but is ultimate more rewarding the rest of the time.

This is what defines each driver, I realise that I only drive at the final 10% on a track and that will account for only 1% of my life with the car. So for me the choice is easy.


Ehhm....sorry but what do i hear...RS4 is faster than all current Ms at track.
RS4 on r-compound was as fast as M6 on the same r-compound regarding the ring 8.09min.
But guess what, at Kliner Hockenheim the RS4 was 1 second slower than M6(still same tiers on bothe cars as they had on the ring, R-compound) As i said the nose heavy RS4 dont suffer from its constuktion on a fast track, but it do suffer on a smaller track, as shown by sport auto.

RS4 1.15.4 and M6 1.14.4(remember RS4 and M6 was on same R- compound tiers on ring as well Hockenheim).

The old M3 E46 was driven the hockenheim and the ring on Street tiers and got 8.22 ring and 1.16.3 at Hockenheim. And yes whats tested is whats tested and i have no problems whit that RS4 on R-compounds was allmost 1 second faster then M3 E46 on street tiers on Hockenheim as well RS4 was 13 seconds faster than M3 E46 on the ring.
(but you nead to remember if the very old M3 E46 also was on R-compound the outcome would been diffrent) Same go for M coupe and the M5 that laped at 1.16,5 min on street tiers at hochenheim.

So sure i could agree that RS4 was faster than M5 and M coupe at hockenheim and on the ring. But remember the sport auto do mark all cars on their lap list that had R-compound. RS4 and M6 had those tiers, M coupe and M5 did not have R-compound. Still RS4 is not faster than M6.

All you talk about RS4 is a better car than whatever, well i would never, and i think not that i have said BMW is better than Audi. Its kind of kids thing. Bothe cars are great at diffrent things, they appeal to diffrent buyers. We have all diffent opinions of whats a god car. We are all diffrent and we will alyways find reasons whysome cars suits us better than others. I had 3 RS4 avants and RS6 Avant, and S6 Avant And S4 sedan. Fore me it was the best cars at a time when i had no money to have sevral cars and i just got kids.
RS4 avnat, did go shoping, did go to ski in mountains, as well did go on racetrack. I find joy in all ways. Still old 380hp RS4 is fast its no driving sweetspot joy to say the least. The stick box in it is not at all sporty. Sure i will buy Audi again. Most likely A new RS4 avant, as use for that is nice when in Avant, to ski holiday, fix my summer house and i just trow in cans of paint tools etc. Now there is M5 kombi as well, more sporty cars to chose betwen. Before it was only RS avants as a option for me at the time, as i wanted a kind of sporty Avant that did all above i said. But to bee fran all this talk about AWD is a faster point to point cars etc in rain and stuff, that is very much not the case all time. Thats a drivers issue, and nothing else.

I know many in AWD cars that i have no proplems to pass in a rear driven car in rain. But i know what you mean, in genral it might be the case AWD is a faster point to point in rain. But last cars dont drive by them self. I pass RS4 avants that i know at the ring in a Mondeo on vinter firction tiers or a BMW 118 disel, in heavy rain.

To end fore you the choise is easy to pick car, im glad for you to be honest. For me its not always so easy, im looking at new GT3 997 RS, but hey i will not go faster on track in it than whit my CSL, still i want the RS, well i dont know. Wel see what New M3 will show me. Or should i keep my CSL to next CSL. Maybee i will trade in my volvo V70 kombi (day to day car, most boring in the world, still god use whit kids etc) to a Audi jeep, they look nice. Well if the money was no object i would pick RS4 Avant as my day to day(would buy it today), kids and shopping and go to ski holiday car and the 997 GT3 RS as weckend track car, and keep my E46 CSL for ever.:revs: We will see what fly, maybee nothing change whit my cars, nead a new house as well, life aint easy:cheers: .

Oh, and to me interior is not all to importent, i agree Audi is sweetspot whit that at present and i like it. But i like the driving joy of M even more, we all like diffrent thing. Some see pure driving joy in a Porsche turbo AWD, i dont. In the same way i dont see pure driving joy in new RS4, still i could buy. When the front tiers brake and turn as i should be in a sports car, well then im fine. But when you add AWD the fronts are pulling the car forward as well. Then one loose some of a feeling(personal) what ever band it is. Is not as sweetspot communicating sharp any longer, still i would buy. In 5 years i might see thing diffrent. I know you love Audi above all, but me i like all cars, said it 100 times.

And dont forget, even i think my Volvo V70 kombi car is the most boring car in the world, there are others that might think its fun. We have all diffrent standpoint and how we experience things, we all like diffrent things, what this depends on is a even more intressting talk that this weare having. Is like ethics , we have all diffrent ethics in the end, very normal this. And why is it like this, well thats also more intressting talk than ouer car talk. (i dont mean you and me regarding any ethics or why we all think diffrent, i mean regarding all peopel, and its pretty intressting)

Did you have the test drive yet of the cars??

[7:53 RS6]

History repeats its self once more. Another comparison with an out of its class car. Another win for the RS4 from my point of view. And this time it needed to be tuned!!!

For a complete review of both car strenghts and weaknesses: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=119784

Quotes from the review:
It's a terrifically bad idea to design a car with the weight of a V8 engine hung entirely over the front axle. It hurts weight distribution, generates a lot of polar moment of inertia, overworks the front tires and brakes, upsets ride quality and makes the steering heavier.

None of this seems to matter in the 2007 Audi RS 4. Using just such a layout, Audi has managed to out-fun the 2007 BMW M5, one of the world's most respected driver's cars. And it's done so for tens of thousands of fewer dollars.

The RS 4 didn't succeed all alone, though. It had help from the competition.

and another one:

But it's another story in the M5. For starters, it sounds like a fish in a blender when it fires up. And the new six-speed manual tranny isn't what I was hoping for. A combination of longish throws and slender gates demands a deliberate, three-step shifting technique that rubs me the wrong way.

And the thing feels generally bulky, giving it a distinct "dad's car" vibe. Careful. Don't scratch it. I'm not feeling very much M5-ness here. What I see is just a BMW 5 Series with a lot of horsepower. You know what I mean?

Thanks again for pointing this video out, it really makes me love my RS4 more and more. :)

Cheers

Im glad you feel that way, but most importen must be your own feeling i gues, rather than any reporter. As many reporters ther are as many do they have diffrent opinions on subjucts. Even so on RS4 and M5, ther are more or less god and bad reports even of RS4 as well all cars as well M5. This must be one of the most god i read anyway for RS4 and the most bad for M5. And its not to strange all see thing diffrent.:thumb: Still i dont buy cars on a mag reportes feeling of things, rather its god fun to see how they see things against how one self see things. As in this case the reporter and you think the same of RS4 then. As well other see it not your way, but this is nothing that would uppset you or me, we know thats the way things are. Most importen is what we self think, not any reporter? Anywau many times car reporters are so lazy anyway, some just wright what other done, more or less. Or buy their text, but change some bits?

[Leadfoot]

7:53RS6,

Yeah I agree, this is about as bad a report as I have ever seen on the M5. As like yourself, we in the UK don't get the manual M5 with it's non disengaging DSP which has taken the edge off the entertainment to be had from the M5 and in turn made it a very ordinary car indeed. You see without the M5's fun factor one see only the things that are wrong with it, like the poor brakes, the nose heavy weight balance, poor interior design, i-drive, etc.

With the SMG and the ability to turn off the DSP, one can forgive the M5 it's failings, but without them it turns into an over-powered saloon without the ability to entertain and questions what's the need for it.

Why BMW could balance the abilities of the M3 manual and M3 SMG so right and get the manual M5 so wrong begs the question, was this a money making scheme at the expense of the breed. Who's ever bright idea this was should be shot.

You see where as Audi is still an amazing car while not entertaining, the BMW M cars are not. They are among the best at entertaining but without it they are no better to drive than a standard 520i and who in their right mind would pay £62K for a 520i?

As for the RS4 getting bad reports, now that is news on me. I have read most of the reports in English I can find and not one ever had anything other than praise for the car.


What I was saying about it's as easy choice for me to choose the Audi over the BMW or any other car for that matter is because it balances everything better than the others. My S4 was chosen over an M3 because of it's awd grip, the best fit and finish, it's looks - though I don't dislike the Bangle design as much as some, it's torque that the M3 engine couldn't provide at the low revs and lastly the price. As I said I get my entertainment from the kart which no car can equal, I don't know of a road car that will pull between 2~3 Gs in a corner. But like you said if I had the choice to have a road car and a track car than I would still choose the Audi for the road but I would definitely not choose one for the track unless the R8 was in the running, but in the same way I wouldn't choose a BMW either, the only way I for that to happen would be me needing a family car to take to a track and then the M3 would have made sense.

[M&M]

LEad, EVo chose the M3 CS over the RS4. Autocar did as well. And there was one or 2 other mags that also said unfavourable things. But mostly they all say good things, & in my opinion the RS4 is the best Audi ever made.

Also, where did I day power to weight is the only factor in acceleration? I said the RS4 AVant & CSL have similar drag coefficients, frontal area, & gearing is such that they do similar speeds per gear. Hence power to weight is the only other significant factor once you up & running to decide who will win in a race.

When you have cars with different drag, gearing, etc then power to weight will still be very important, but can be influenced by the other factors.

Now onto the E39 vs RS4. Here's RS4 dyno's from Audiworld. PLEASE, if you get more point them out to me as these are the only ones I could find but I would like to build a larger sample of data so I would like it if you knew of a few more:

http://www.livinginyourdreams.com/images/DynoRS4Baseline.jpg

This one is a stock RS4, vs a modded one with Miltek exhaust & ECU:

http://mmm.os.org.za/d/1007-1/RS4dyno.JPG

SO it looks like the RS4 pushes just over 300hp on all 4 wheels. Makes sense as quattro cars normally lose around 25% through the drivetrain.

There are, of course, plenty E39 M5 dynos as its been around for a while. Looks like an E39 M5's dynos between 325-345hp on wheels.

http://www.jimmy540i.com/dyno540m5.jpg

European Car web Feature:

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0310ec_bmw_e39_m5/

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0310ec_techbmw09_z.jpg

[Leadfoot]

Agreed that Autocar and EVO both choose the M3 CS over the RS4 and in the most recent EVO featuring the next M3 they said that the M3 CS is a much better car than the CSL. I am comfortable with UK mags picking a more entertaining car over a quicker more practical and ultimately better car, heck when you are driving cars day in day out and can handle a car like they can you can understand why the most entertaining wins their vote. With Autocar there has always been a packing order in tests Audi, BMW, Porsche and Ferrari on top.

The recent dynos of the RS4 were all taken at launch when the cars were handed to the magazines at the time. Every and I mean every Audi RS4 owner will tell you that the car with mileage improves and it's more than just a little by all accounts. So if they improve with mileage then one can assume that their power at wheel figures will also improve as well. One example of this I remember was by Autocar years ago on a long term car (VW GTI Mk2) where the car was tested in acceleration when new and then again went leaving after 20,000 miles and it was a whole 4 seconds quicker to 100mph.

Now not for one minute would I say a RS4 would improve by such a margin but it does shown that mileage improves the performance of a car.

If you had watched the race I posted with a S4v8 Avant and the M5 you will see that the M5 won but it wasn't a walk over and we all know the power difference and performance difference between the S4 and RS4, if you believe a standard M5 would walk away from a RS4 Avant then you would be totally mad, much like the guys from M6.COM for posting such a thing.

My S4 may have been a quick one but I was even stevens with an E39 M5 up to 120mph and I got destroyed by a RS4. No sorry an M5 will not beat a RS4 unless it is tuned and not just by a little bit.

[Fab]

How's about the next best thing.

Standard E39 M5 vs Audi S4v8 Avant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkuJusnqP6g

Now we all know how much slower a S4 is to an RS4, hell I tries one in my S4 and got destroyed.

Now re-look the M6.COM video of M5 vs RS4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodSqJPKK8M

As I said something fishy about this.Well the 2nd vid just show how good the RS4 is. Its just losing 1-2 car length on rolling start and is well ahead on standstill start (and the RS4 just has a very bad start.....).

So this result vs a modded M5 is definitely good. And also I suspect the RS4 not ot have enough km for the engine to be a max power output.

[Gustav]

LOL no.


:alig: :alig: :alig: :alig:


Probably M5 is chipped and uses suspicious fuel....

[Gustav]

A stock M5 would most probably take the RS4 at higher speds. That is what surpised us: the RS4 really its a wall at 200 km/h and over. The S6 V-10 was faster at voer 200 km/h :confused:


An M5 is not faster.This M5 is not stock so is faster.

[Gustav]

True, that is what I think as well.




Up in speead a new RS4 is not that fast, off the line it is. RS4 will lose up in speed even to a plain stock e39 M5 in a rolling start.

[Gustav]

The second video the M5 had a VERY bad start, hittign rev limiter on 1st gear + slightly slipping clutch.


Well the 2nd vid just show how good the RS4 is. Its just losing 1-2 car length on rolling start and is well ahead on standstill start (and the RS4 just has a very bad start.....).

So this result vs a modded M5 is definitely good. And also I suspect the RS4 not ot have enough km for the engine to be a max power output.

[Gustav]

7:53 RS6, drop me a mail if you want to join on the next Koenigsegg eventwith the M3 CSL.

gustav@m5board.com

[Leadfoot]

A stock M5 would most probably take the RS4 at higher speds. That is what surpised us: the RS4 really its a wall at 200 km/h and over. The S6 V-10 was faster at voer 200 km/h :confused:

As for the hitting a wall, this surprises me as I never experienced this with my S4v8 and I raced both M3s and a Cayman S a lot higher than the 200km/h mark. I also raced a RS4 and got destroyed totally. As for the S6 being quicker above 200km/h, this is very possible, torque play a very big role as the speeds increase. The S6v10 would also pull away from the old M5 but when you tune any car depending on what is done, a car can make a marked difference.

Using your own video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVgtaOsHTLQ

This show what as little as 10% improvement can make over a stock car.

I would still like to see a stock old M5 against a well run-in RS4 right up to their limits, I think the RS4 will not shame itself.

[Gustav]

Herre you go ;)

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11677




I would still like to see a stock old M5 against a well run-in RS4 right up to their limits, I think the RS4 will not shame itself.

[Leadfoot]

Herre you go ;)

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11677

Am I wrong in think that you said you only stayed this far behind because of stonechips so what do you mean by 'Here you go'.

Were you racing it or not? :eye:

[Gustav]

I was not racing :alig: :alig: :alig: :alig:


Am I wrong in think that you said you only stayed this far behind because of stonechips so what do you mean by 'Here you go'.

Were you racing it or not? :eye: