RS6 Brake Cooling Modifications - Details

[skiwi]

The RS6 has a wonderful set of brakes. 8-piston Brembo callipers with 365x34mm cast rotors, that provide plenty of stopping power and a wonderful pedal feel. However, while Audi was careful to remove the prospect of excessive heat build up in the hub using a floating rotor design (an issue for other hi-po cars), it neglected to provide the standard setup with enough cooling to avoid fade after repeated heavy use. While pad compounds can certainly help this, providing air cooling to the setup is a very cost-effect, street legal, method of improving the standard setup.
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The VW Phaeton luxo-barge has a variety of standard front brake setups, one of which is of particular interest - the 365x34mm setup (not the same as the RS6 btw). This comes with a couple of nice features:
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<!--[if !supportLists]-->1.<!--[endif]-->A better full-size backing plate than the &#190; size RS6 setup, and
<!--[if !supportLists]-->2.<!--[endif]-->A big air-scoop designed to work with wide, low profile tyres.
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This project is about adapting the Phaeton brake setup to the RS6. I have just completed this upgrade to my RS6. This post contains the detail of how I made the parts fit, with the objective that anyone with moderate skill would be able to accomplish the work.
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To start, you require the following parts
1) 2x Phaeton backing plates (3do 615 311c & 3d0 615 312c)
2) 2x Phaeton air ducts (3d0 615 447d & 3d0 615 448d)
3) 4x brake bolts (100 650 02)
4) 8x securing bolts (908 429 03)
5) A sheet of 4mm particle board
6) Some small 2mm mild steel pieces
7) A couple of 10mm (long shank) 3mm rivets (aluminium)
8) A 3mm drill and a 20mm borer.
9) Tools: Jigsaw, Welder, Knife, Drill, Socket set
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Stage 1 - Preparation<o></o>
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Remove the road wheels, and access the brake system. Use a large screwdriver to force the pads back against the pistons a few mm. Don't go overboard here as you need to ensure that brake fluid doesn't overflow the reservoir. Now locate the rotor with a wheel bolt. I normally use the post from the toolkit to ease the job of removing the wheel and this is also useful to locate the rotor and stop it from turning. 1 more bolt is all you need to secure it.
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Use a hex head to remove the 2 M8 bolts that secure the callipers to the adapters. These are stretch bolts and will need to be replaced. I find it much easier to remove the calliper this way rather than to remove the adapter plate. However, if you remove the adapter plate, you do not have to replace the bolts. Make sure you have some stiff wire to hold the calliper.
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You should see something like Figure 1 below
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Stage 2 - Measurement and Cutting<o></o>
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The Phaeton backing plates will not fully fit the RS6. There are a couple of issues we need to solve; The bottom of the strut sits proud of the plane of the securing bolts and the 4 bolts occupy slightly different positions in either car.
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To make the plate fit, we need to mask out the bottom of the strut. In order to do this, I used a simple technique involving thin cardboard which I secured using the backing plate bolts, and then using a sharp knife and scissors made the cardboard fit precisely.
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Figure 2 below
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Once you are happy with this, you need to get busy with your jigsaw. [If you are confident with your jigsaw skills, you can go straight to the stage of cutting out the backing plate, but I chose the intermediate step - partly as this was the 1st time, and I was unsure of the issues with the bolt holes.]
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Using the 4mm particle board, trace out the shape of the phaeton backing plate and make sure the fit is good. Now using the cardboard piece, make the cut-out into the particle board to the point where the particle board can be bolted up to the strut.
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Figure 3 & 4 below

Note the top bolthole that doesn't match up. We will come to this shortly.
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Now that you have an accurate blank, you can get to work with your jigsaw (now with mild steel blades) and cut out the strut hole in the 1mm mild steel backing plate. This is not hard, and a little bit of care will result in a good job. You will need to elongate the bottom bolt hole somewhat in order to fit correctly.
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Figure 5 & 6 below

Stage 3 - Anal Retentives Anonymous<o></o>
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I have mentioned that top bolt not being covered by the strut. You may not bother about this. The 3 remaining bolts secure the backing plate very well, and there is no need for the 4th bolt. Really. No really. Anyway, I wasn't happy about this and so made up a couple of pieces of 2mm mild steel to cover the holes and welded these to the backing plate. This is a relatively painstaking job, one which you could out-source to your local engineering shop or do with a bit of effort yourself. Don't forget to paint the end result to avoid issues with rust.
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I used 2mm plate against the 1mm backing plate as this lined up the vertical plane of the bolts holes after I had profiled the steel fillets. You will need to champher the pieces carefully to avoid blow-through when you weld.
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The end result, bolted up will look from Figure 7 below to all bolted up with 4 bolts (Figure 8 below).
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Now re-assemble the brake assembly. The Allen bolts for the callipers need to be replaced with new (stretch) bolts and be torqued to 120nm.
I used the 8 "backing plate" bolts to replace the 8 old ones (they come with lock-tight already on them), and use the old bolts to secure the scoops. These can be any M8 bolt, (I originally used stainless M8 Allen bolts), but I like the EOM bolts as they are low profile, and we care about aerodynamics (right)?
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Stage 4 - Clearance<o></o>
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Now you have the backing plate secure, you only have 1 more issue to sort - the clearance of the scoop itself. It is 90% fine, height and width work well with the 19" wheel (and even better with the 18" one). However, on full lock, the bottom strut bolt will push the scoop against the backing plate - not all the way, but enough to be a bother. The plate itself is stronger than the original one, but you won't want this happening, if you are like me.
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You can do one of 3 things:
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a) Ignore it. Don't.
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b) Turn the strut bolts around (the nut faces forwards, use a new bolt to drive the old one out and have the bolt head facing front. This is quite straight-forward - remember to protect the track rod (behind) from the bolt head as you drive it out. Use a putty knife or something. Finally remember not to tighten the bolt (80nm) until the car has it's weight on the wheels (as the bush will twist otherwise).
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c) Cut a hole in the scoop to accommodate the bolt. This is the course of action I took. Mainly because turning the bolt around doesn't sort the clearance issue (it does make a difference, but not enough for me), and because the 20mm hole you require can be easily masked.
I made careful note of the centre of the bolt where it impacted the scoop, and drilled a 20mm hole which, if you're careful is all you require for the nut to clear. If you're not careful enough, use a knife to carefully widen the hole to fit.
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Next I used a strip of thickish (2mm) rubber and a 3mm pop rivet to cover the front of the hole. This has the effect of prevent air moving through the hole, but moving aside for the strut bolt when required. See below the hole correctly situated to clear the bolt (look carefully and you will see the end of the bolt poking through the hole - Figure 9):
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The final pictue (Figure 10) shows the front view of the end result.

many thanks to jimmy s for tips and btdt!
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[LU-RS6]

Wonderful write-up skiwi. Think it'll be usefull for many out there that have not installed this mod yet.

:0:

[itchingtogo]

WOW, this needs to be a sticky and added to the Audiworld tech articles. Great job! Makes me wan't to document my impending Valentine 1 third brake light stealth install with the ADR dash display.

[skiwi]

further photos on the install

[JP4]

skiwi,

Very nice write-up. :thumb: Jimmy talked me into this mod last year too. And I must say I don't regret it.

I made an attempt to quantify the improvement with the brake ducts and came up with a figure of ~10% reduction in front rotor temperatures. IMO this is significant enough to justify the time and expense. Especially if you occassionally track the car.

JP4 :revs:

[LU-RS6]

Still I feel a lot more cooling is needed.
There MUST be something else... :vhmmm::vhmmm:

[JP4]

Still I feel a lot more cooling is needed.
There MUST be something else... :vhmmm::vhmmm:

Jimmy and I agree comletely. We had a special rotor made that fits the OEM 8 pot Brembo. We're currently evaluating how well it works and how it will hold up. The custom rotor is just over 6 pounds lighter on each front corner and operating temperatures appear to be ~400 degrees F cooler than the factory rotor after a typical 20 minute track session. :applause:

JP4

[LU-RS6]

Jimmy and I agree comletely. We had a special rotor made that fits the OEM 8 pot Brembo. We're currently evaluating how well it works and how it will hold up. The custom rotor is just over 6 pounds lighter on each front corner and operating temperatures appear to be ~400 degrees F cooler than the factory rotor after a typical 20 minute track session. :applause:

JP4


Honestly after doing my lap on the ring I thought the rotors/calipers were going to explode :eek:
But I understand with 2 passengers, fuel and some stuff in the car,it must weight at last 2200 kg. And that's ALOT.

Anyway keep us posted about your progress, because the RS6 is such a damn good car to track apart form the braking probs.

[JP4]

Honestly after doing my lap on the ring I thought the rotors/calipers were going to explode :eek:
But I understand with 2 passengers, fuel and some stuff in the car,it must weight at last 2200 kg. And that's ALOT.

Anyway keep us posted about your progress, because the RS6 is such a damn good car to track apart form the braking probs.

We'll do LU-RS6! Heading for Heartland Park in Topeka, Kansas in a week and a half. It will be the 3 weekend on my first set of custom front rotors. :race:

JP4

[LU-RS6]

Have any pics? :hahahehe:

[JP4]

Have any pics? :hahahehe:

Let's see here :vhmmm: .......how's this?

[LU-RS6]

Great thanks :eek::eek: You can very well see they should result in better cooling from the side picture.

Are these stoptec alike rotors? I have seen them on an integra last weekend.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t260/Chillax666/Ringtime/IMGP0130edit.jpg

[JP4]

Great thanks :eek::eek: You can very well see they should result in better cooling from the side picture.

Are these stoptec alike rotors? I have seen them on an integra last weekend.


No they're not. It's actually an off the self NASCAR type friction ring that has been cut to fit the RS6. The hats were engineered specifically for our fitment with the 8 pot Brembo's.

JP4:mech:

[7:53 RS6]

Just to point it out. A stock RS6 sedan on street tiers is driven around the nurburgring in 8.20 min, thats a FULL lap!! This is done whit out any issues whit the brakes at all!

One do have to remember that its pretty common(normal) to overbake a car at the ring due to the speeads there. Flying down the fox hole at 250km/h on speedo in a lump of over 2000kg tend to make the brake pedal to be used to much. What i mean is it not only the brakes to blame, even ouer selvf as drivers are to blame.

And last, ther are no brakes what ever 15 pot caliper and halfmeter rotor that will stop the law of fysik anyway. One manage to get very far by working whit in the limits of whatever brakes, its not all easy, but still.
Its 8.20 in RS6 full lap on the ring, no problems, but hey Horst dont brake that much on a lap:)

Anyway nice to see the small uppgrades you do on your cars, its a very god investment and small money, but it work well. But still one nead to reflect to the way one brake a car as well.

One could whit ease fade out what ever brake system(even the biggest bad as kit) if one would like, no problems at all!!. Just a pointer.
Over the years i driven the ring, well most speed lately is as well from not braking at all at some places, or braking way less. Still it take time to figure out, scary track:rolleyes: But a place to die for:dig:

[JP4]

Just to point it out. A stock RS6 sedan on street tiers is driven around the nurburgring in 8.20 min, thats a FULL lap!! This is done whit out any issues whit the brakes at all!

One do have to remember that its pretty common(normal) to overbake a car at the ring due to the speeads there. Flying down the fox hole at 250km/h on speedo in a lump of over 2000kg tend to make the brake pedal to be used to much. What i mean is it not only the brakes to blame, even ouer selvf as drivers are to blame.

And last, ther are no brakes what ever 15 pot caliper and halfmeter rotor that will stop the law of fysik anyway. One manage to get very far by working whit in the limits of whatever brakes, its not all easy, but still.
Its 8.20 in RS6 full lap on the ring, no problems, but hey Horst dont brake that much on a lap:)

Anyway nice to see the small uppgrades you do on your cars, its a very god investment and small money, but it work well. But still one nead to reflect to the way one brake a car as well.

One could whit ease fade out what ever brake system(even the biggest bad as kit) if one would like, no problems at all!!. Just a pointer.
Over the years i driven the ring, well most speed lately is as well from not braking at all at some places, or braking way less. Still it take time to figure out, scary track:rolleyes: But a place to die for:dig:

All very good and valid points. It is my belief however that the RS6 OEM rotor was a good compromise for a car that is used primarily on public roads and was not intended or designed to tolerate the rigors of "hot laps" on a road coarse. It's a fact that when Champion Motorsports first put the RS6 in the Speed GT Series they tried running the car with the OEM rotors and calipers but soon found out that they could not stand up to the rigors of competitive driving on the type of road coarses that they were driving on. They subsequently completely changed out the front and rear brakes with an Alcon setup with much better results. And their cars were several hundred pounds lighter than the street versions after they stripped them down to racing weight.

I've never used the brakes hard enough to "fry" them in one day like some folks have with a heavy brake foot but I have been able to quantify some data on the difference between the OEM rotors and aftermarket rotors using the OEM Brembo's with track pads.

Peak OEM rotor temps after a typical 20 minute track session on a road coarse measured with temperature paint......Fronts ~650 C, rears no data.

OEM rotor temps after a cool down lap.....Fronts ~400 C, Rears ~235 C. Measured with infrared thermometer.

After-market peak rotor temps after a typical 20 minute track session on the same road coarse with the same brake pads and wheel/tire setup. Ambient temp within 10 degrees....Fronts ~425 C, rears no data.

After-market rotor temps after a cool down lap....Fronts ~245 C, Rears ~235 C. Measured with infrared thermometer.

Also of note is the fact that after I switched to a high temperature brake fluid and track pads I have never experienced any brake fade during track sessions. Before I made that change (completely stock brake fluid and pads) I would get some brake fade after about 10 minutes of "spirited" track driving. I attribute the fade that I was getting mostly to the brake fluid.

Hope you find this information useful!

JP4

[7:53 RS6]

Yes! Still those race cars are on slick which make more energi to be trown in to the braking systems, even them race cars are lighter.

As i always as well tel the most is to put in higer tolerant brake fluid in the system, as well use more heat resistent pads. Kind of chose pads for driving(or braking) style.

I have never felt pad fade in my life, its mostly the fluid that fade. Totaly diiffrent symtoms. When one have brake resistanc in the brake pedal, but the brakingpower is not deliverd under pressing the brake pedal, well then its pad fade.

Whats more know to most peopel is the symtoms of fluid fade, yes most know or feelt it, brakepedal to the flor. Well release and brake again as well repeat once more, well the pressure is getting back. Still once we boil fluid, well its original boiling point is getting lower that factory say it is. So every time one fade fluid, it must change to new. I know of car mag reporter that over days they many times fade same fluid in one car, diffrent smuck drivers, and still they have the brainer to blame the brakes? Gee guess what boiling point a havy 6 times boild fluid got:doh: Pretty much lower than when new.

And by all means, if driving a lump hevy porker like RS6, well i never drove one meter whitout the highest heat tolerant fluid on the market. Well anyway Motul RBF600 is ok, as well Castrol SRF. As well put propper pads on that take heat, stock dont.

We would not had all talk about braking issu whit cars, if most did understand that to a very, very high extent what make the brakes deliver is fluid and pad and tiers.(yes slicks and r-compound put higher stress to braking system)

And yes, why not put on extra coolin to the brakes, still i never was in nead of it.
But to say the least, whit extra cooling to the brakes like int this thread, well one save pads fore sure by suipplying more air:hahahehe: The pads do last longer other than that, why not. Last RS6 is not a track car i know after massive tracking whit it, it will ruin the economy of the most. 3000km i got out of my all new Pirelli P zero Rosso tiers:jlol: I have lost count of pads and rotors i gone thry in thaty porker, still fun.

[itchingtogo]

Hey JP4, what is the bad news ($) on those beautiful disc? Would your source be able to replicate them easly?

[JP4]

Yes! Still those race cars are on slick which make more energi to be trown in to the braking systems, even them race cars are lighter.

As i always as well tel the most is to put in higer tolerant brake fluid in the system, as well use more heat resistent pads. Kind of chose pads for driving(or braking) style.

I have never felt pad fade in my life, its mostly the fluid that fade. Totaly diiffrent symtoms. When one have brake resistanc in the brake pedal, but the brakingpower is not deliverd under pressing the brake pedal, well then its pad fade.

Whats more know to most peopel is the symtoms of fluid fade, yes most know or feelt it, brakepedal to the flor. Well release and brake again as well repeat once more, well the pressure is getting back. Still once we boil fluid, well its original boiling point is getting lower that factory say it is. So every time one fade fluid, it must change to new. I know of car mag reporter that over days they many times fade same fluid in one car, diffrent smuck drivers, and still they have the brainer to blame the brakes? Gee guess what boiling point a havy 6 times boild fluid got:doh: Pretty much lower than when new.

And by all means, if driving a lump hevy porker like RS6, well i never drove one meter whitout the highest heat tolerant fluid on the market. Well anyway Motul RBF600 is ok, as well Castrol SRF. As well put propper pads on that take heat, stock dont.

We would not had all talk about braking issu whit cars, if most did understand that to a very, very high extent what make the brakes deliver is fluid and pad and tiers.(yes slicks and r-compound put higher stress to braking system)

And yes, why not put on extra coolin to the brakes, still i never was in nead of it.
But to say the least, whit extra cooling to the brakes like int this thread, well one save pads fore sure by suipplying more air:hahahehe: The pads do last longer other than that, why not. Last RS6 is not a track car i know after massive tracking whit it, it will ruin the economy of the most. 3000km i got out of my all new Pirelli P zero Rosso tiers:jlol: I have lost count of pads and rotors i gone thry in thaty porker, still fun.

RS6....we agree fundamentally on all points that you have made here.

A few points:

The Champion Motorsports RS6's that competed in the Speed GT series were running Toyo RA1's not racing slicks. As you may know it's a DOT R compound tire that all cars in the series were required to use. I've used them on my RS6 for the track but prefer the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup.

You are exactly correct about the difference between brake pad fade and fluid issues. I use Motul RBF 600 and as I mentioned before have not had any more fade issues.

The pads I use for track duty are Pagid's front and rear. RS15's up front and RS19's in the rear. They work quite well and are made to fit the RS6 calipers.

I've also had the OEM front rotors cyrogenically treated in an effort to make them last longer under track conditions. It is helpful and helps them last almost twice as long as front OEM rotors that are not treated. There is however the cost/benefit part of the equation. For OEM rotors it's worth the expensive to have them cryo'd IMHO but when the price of the rotor comes down significantly the cost/benefit of the cryo treatment becomes less significant. I do not have the aftermarket front rotors treated as it's more economical to just replace the friction rings when the time comes. IMO

Your point about the RS6 not being a track car obviously comes from personal experience and I agree with you. However running the RS6 on the track does give us a chance to stretch the legs on our "beasts" in a relatively safe and legal environment. In a country with speed limits in the 95-115 km/h range :revs: , it certainly gives us a nice alternative to enjoy a fabulous vehicle.

I've enjoyed this exchange of info and hope others can gain something from it too.

Cheers! :cheers: :thumb:

JP4

[LU-RS6]

Guys can I just say, VERY very useful information here. :thumb::thumb::thumb:

JP4 can I just ask, what has made you decide to go for Pagid Grey (RS15) instead of Pagid Black (RS14)?

[JP4]

Hey JP4, what is the bad news ($) on those beautiful disc? Would your source be able to replicate them easly?

Yes...it certainly can be done. We just did a small group buy while we're still evaluating how well they are going to work for us.

Group price was about $430 each for a complete rotor. Extra friction rings were about $180 each. These prices do NOT include shipping. :idea:

[LU-RS6]

Yes...it certainly can be done. We just did a small group buy while we're still evaluating how well they are going to work for us.

Group price was about $430 each for a complete rotor. Extra friction rings were about $180 each. These prices do NOT include shipping. :idea:


If i'm correct that'll be slightly more expensive than the stock ones, but as the quality is improved and regarding the current EUR/USD rate it should be a good deal :thumb:

[JP4]

Guys can I just say, VERY very useful information here. :thumb::thumb::thumb:

JP4 can I just ask, what has made you decide to go for Pagid Grey (RS15) instead of Pagid Black (RS14)?

Yes you can ask! When I originally switched to the RS15 I was looking for the pad that could handle the OUTRAGEOUS heat that the OEM front rotors were creating. The RS15 fit the bill with no problems. They also have highest friction level that pagid offers as far as I know.

Jimmy has been using the RS14 and likes them. It's my understanding that he's going to try the RS15's next. He will have a direct comparison once he has made the change.

JP4

[JP4]

If i'm correct that'll be slightly more expensive than the stock ones, but as the quality is improved and regarding the current EUR/USD rate it should be a good deal :thumb:

Don't forget one thing here. The initial cost is very close to the OEM rotor. But when the friction ring wears out, you only need to replace the friction ring. Assuming that hats are not damaged, they can be used again. That reduces the cost of new brakes by more than 50%. :wo:

[itchingtogo]

Yes...it certainly can be done. We just did a small group buy while we're still evaluating how well they are going to work for us.

Group price was about $430 each for a complete rotor. Extra friction rings were about $180 each. These prices do NOT include shipping. :idea:
Great, maybe we can get another buy together. As far as replacement rings are they custom or off the shelf once you have the hats for them. I am sure that I would like to be a regular customer at less than $200 a side .

[jimmy94507]

Great, maybe we can get another buy together. As far as replacement rings are they custom or off the shelf once you have the hats for them. I am sure that I would like to be a regular customer at less than $200 a side .

Itchingtogo,

I would help if you told us when you might be interested in getting a set?
Where are you located?
Located in US would be easier than figuring out a way to get them shipped outside the US.

Regards, Jimmy S.

P.S. If you will be tracking the car you might consider ordering a 2nd set of rotor rings at the same time with replacement hardware.

[itchingtogo]

I am in Florida. I am not in need now but I would like to join a group buy when organised.

Thankks Gary

[SpinEcho]

skiwi, excellent write up, thank you! And a great discussion that followed, in fine RS6.com style.

Are you planning on any track sessions soon? It would be interesting to hear your comments on this mod after a hard set of laps!

[skiwi]

speaking about rotors, guess what rotors i was playing with on the week-end?? i got the chance to visit the williams f1 pit in melbourne!

i had the chance to talk to a mechanic who was re-building the rear suspension of the williams, who talked to me about the braking system, along with a few other things. i got to hold the rear (ap) brake callipers (no photos allowed unfortunatley): amazingly light, and very very careful attention to airflow. the airflow is drawn across the outside of the calliper and then down vertically through the pads to the rotor's surface. as can be seen from this photo of the fronts, airflow management is a key part of getting the best out of f1 brakes.

i've seen a few f1 races, and visited the pits a few times, but i'd go on record anytime as saying that the williams team made this by far the best f1 experience i've had, and are a great bunch of guys and deserve to succeed.

[HeadShot]

JP4 - Very interested in a group buy on that rotor set up!! I'm very close to needing a replacement set now so would really love to spend the coin on the upgrade.
Keep me posted.

Regards - Nick (another KIWI) relocated to the US for the higher speed limits. :)

[LU-RS6]

JP4: Any update on the rotors? :race:

[itchingtogo]

Just wanted to bup the thread.

[LU-RS6]

I'm eagerly awaiting news cause I'm afraid I went through another set of discs this weekend at the Ring :rolleyes:
Pads and tires too but that's a bit offtopic here :lovl:

[JP4]

JP4: Any update on the rotors? :race:

Well....Ran the beast at Heartland Park (Topeka, Kansas) at the KC Audi School then the Porsche School at Gateway International Raceway (St. Louis, Missouri) the following weekend.

I'm satisfied with this brake set-up on the RS6. Significant improvement over the stock front rotors and pads. Aftermarket front rotors with stock Brembo calipers and Pagid RS15 pads. Stock rear rotors and calipers with Pagid RS19 pads. Motul RBF 600 fluid. VW Phaeton cooling kit on both front rotors.

No brake fade detected. No warping detected. (The rotors will warp if not cooled down sufficiently after hot laps. I know this from experience last fall after coming off the track into the hot pits for a passenger change immediately after hot laps with no cool down. I was able to have the rotors "straightened" with a brake lathe with no ill effects.) Some crazing on surface of rotor detectable but not nearly as noticable as on the OEM rotors.

Other notes....

1) The RS15's do require a certain amount of finesse. They can be "grabby" if you are not smooth on pedal application and release. Once I got used to this it was a non-issue IMO.

2) Randy Pobst drove the car at Barber last November and commented that the brakes were fine. btw...with Randy behind the wheel we managed to overtake and pass a 996 TT in the instructor group among others including an RS4 with my beast. :wo: He can make that car dance! :applause:

3) Jimmy has run his with a near identical set-up at least once this year already too. He's using Pagid RS14's on the front and the same rear pads (RS19's). He's still satisfied with that set-up to the best of my knowledge.

Jimmy....if you have anything to throw in here please do so!

JP4 :idea:

[LU-RS6]

My modifications:

Everything stock except:


Phaeton cooling scoops
Pagid blue pads (I believe they are RS4-2)
Steelflex cables
Ferodo brake fluid dot 5.1



I am very satisfied with the braking on the Nordschleife. No fading at all.
Regarding pagid brake pads I am hearing all sorts of things from various sources. Some say use the blue ones as they're disc friendly, some say use orange, some black, grey and on and on. Quite puzzled there :vhmmm:
+ they are quite expensive and am checking out other brands at the moment (EBC?)

Regarding the discs it's quite a headache. Getting of the track and going for a drive to let the whole thing cool, but still getting the warped feeling after some laps. + I am not doing any consecutive laps, always several hours if not a day in between. Even while I am doing the cool-off drive I can hear the metal deforming while cooling down, crazy.


Am really keen on finding better brake discs, which is why I am keeping an eye on this thread.






PS: have you guys ever checked temperature after some braking, strange thing is: front right brake and rear left brake is always more or less the same "graphic", same counts for front left and rear right. Is it because the brakes are being steered "diagonally" ?


Sorry if my question is rather silly, I am a bit of a nitwit when it comes to mechanics..

[JP4]

My modifications:

Everything stock except:


Phaeton cooling scoops
Pagid blue pads (I believe they are RS4-2)
Steelflex cables
Ferodo brake fluid dot 5.1

Am really keen on finding better brake discs, which is why I am keeping an eye on this thread.

PS: have you guys ever checked temperature after some braking, strange thing is: front right brake and rear left brake is always more or less the same "graphic", same counts for front left and rear right. Is it because the brakes are being steered "diagonally" ?


Sorry if my question is rather silly, I am a bit of a nitwit when it comes to mechanics..

Are you running with the ESP on or off? If it's on....that could explain the "strange" temps that you're seeing. ASSuming that you're occassionally getting into the ESP while driving on the track. :vhmmm:

[LU-RS6]

Are you running with the ESP on or off? If it's on....that could explain the "strange" temps that you're seeing. ASSuming that you're occassionally getting into the ESP while driving on the track. :vhmmm:

I'm always on the track with the RS6 with ESP on, I'm not a professional plus it's my daily so better not steer it into the armco :lovl: The beast is an understeer maniac so I let the ESP help me out a bit.


But I'm also getting this when we tested the brakes on a normal straight. I think rear-left/front-right and rear-right/front-left are somehow "connected".

[JP4]

I'm always on the track with the RS6 with ESP on, I'm not a professional plus it's my daily so better not steer it into the armco :lovl: The beast is an understeer maniac so I let the ESP help me out a bit.

I'm wit ja on dat one brother! :thumb: I feel the same way. I use the ESP light as a little tap on the shoulder that "the edge" is very near. The ESP on the RS6 will allow you to kick out the rear end just a bit without intervention allow a nice 4 wheel drift. But steps in nicely and unobtrusively when necessary.

btw....it doesn't understeer nearly as much with the H-Sport Sways front and rear with the rear set a it's tightest setting. FWIW

[sechsgang]

I dont really the RS6 that understeery...and I am VERY sensitive to that...

What I love about he RS is the amount you can rotate it with the brakes...as they are MASSIVE and the weight transfers easily...


Thenagain...its all driver dependant...Ill take this car and make someone think its rwd...but another that drove the car said he just felt alot of push..Also,you could try to lessen the pressure in the rear tires to help swing the back around...


I think ( i could be TOTALLY wrong) this car is capable of what its driver can put into it...kinda like the Lotus Elise Top gear episode where Clarkson just just massive UNDERSTEER and the guy who knew the car was drifting the thing around like a D1 champ...


As for the braking...ya, I want a better set up bigtime...Im happy with the calipers...but the heat generated is not acceptable for this car...ESP on or off...I think Ill start with the ducts, fluid, lines and pads...anyone have a good place that caters to the RS6 sizes?

[itchingtogo]

Has anyone had any experience with Porterfield R4-S street pads. They seem to be a good alternative to Blues and you can get them for the rears!

[itchingtogo]

Stumbled across this while I was looking for info on pads. Seems like a bargain for cryo services.

http://www.metal-wear.com/racing_brakes.htm

[JP4]

I've participated in 6 schools since using the aftermarket front rotors. Just got back from Mid-Ohio. Same front rotors for all 6 schools. They were turned once last November due to warping when coming off the track after a hot lap without cool down lap. Subsequently ran in 4 more schools (Heartland Park, 2 at Gateway Intl, and Mid-Ohio) on same rotors. Finished off second set of Pagid RS15 pads last weekend and I'd say the first set of rotors are about done.

I'm satisfied with this set up. Great braking from any speed, no pad or fluid fading issues and brakes are consistent for an entire session. I'll be taking the car in for it's last factory warranty service next month. When it's there I'll have the technician check the front wheel bearings to confirm that there hasn't been excessive heat transfer due to the hat/ring design.

This set-up works great for track days. But I wouldn't leave the track rotors and pads on for street use. Also I believe that switching to carbon based (OEM) street pads then back to the RS15's can cause issues from incompatible pad material transfer on the rotors. Proper bed in procedures are absolutely necessary to obtain best results.

As for the rears.....first set of Pagid RS19 (yellow) pads are less than half worn but are obviously doing a lot of work. This might even be a good pad for the front if you want longer wear with a bit less friction. Rear rotors have been on since I purchased the car and they will be replaced next month too. The rear rotors have about 25 driving schools on them.

I will continue to use this set-up for track day activities. :race:

btw...did I tell you that I REALLY love this car! :rs6kiss: :addict:

[Benman]

btw...did I tell you that I REALLY love this car! :rs6kiss: :addict:

Thanks for that write up!

Jimmy and yourself (and possibly Icon) are the last of us still tracking our :rs6kiss: . Awesome to hear!

And mine just finished its last factory paid trip to the dealer and got brand spanking new front rotors and pads. :heart:

Ben:addict:

[sechsgang]

ahh...so you will be squeeling a buttload tomorrow then...even after bedding the pads...I get the worst noises coming from my new everythings for quite some time...really annoying...

[iconcls]

Jimmy and yourself (and possibly Icon) are the last of us still tracking our :rs6kiss: .

Ben:addict:

(cough)

http://idisk.mac.com/iconcls/Public/detailed.jpg

[Benman]

(cough)



Well,

I guess that answers that!

You still have the Beast though, right?

Ben:addict:

[iconcls]

You still have the Beast though, right?

Ben:addict:

Absolutely, I just made a "track" change bec. I was going broke buying tires and brake pads.

[itchingtogo]

JP4, sounds like you will be ordering some new rings. Lets organize a group buy.

[JP4]

Thanks for that write up!

Jimmy and yourself (and possibly Icon) are the last of us still tracking our :rs6kiss: . Awesome to hear!

And mine just finished its last factory paid trip to the dealer and got brand spanking new front rotors and pads. :heart:

Ben:addict:

Actually I know of at least 3 others. Jimmy and I have a mutual friend/instructor that was at Mid-O last weekend with his RS6 set up just like mine and Jimmy's. I had a student at the Nationals last November at Barber from the Atlanta area tracking his RS6. He even had a set of Schroth harnesses installed while we were there. And the 3rd was a guy from Tennessee that I instructed last year at Mid-O with an RS6. So.....they're still out there for sure.

[JP4]

(cough)

http://idisk.mac.com/iconcls/Public/detailed.jpg

OH BABY!:bow:

[JP4]

JP4, sounds like you will be ordering some new rings. Lets organize a group buy.

Jimmy and I were actually talking about that a week or two ago. So it's certainly possible.

[SpinEcho]

Jimmy and yourself (and possibly Icon) are the last of us still tracking our :rs6kiss: .
Ben:addict:

Ben, you might want to look way up north before you make that statement again... :race:

[Benman]

Ben, you might want to look way up north before you make that statement again... :race:


Sorry Spin, forgot about my Canadian brothers... ;)

Just seems more and more are retiring the Beast for track duty save the few die hards and hats off to them!:cheers:

Ben:addict:

I have one month left on my warranty and then its all on me. :D

[jimmy94507]

Jimmy and I were actually talking about that a week or two ago. So it's certainly possible.

Hi All,

We're collecting names for any of you who are interested in the rotors discussed in these threads.
I have contacted and received information from some. If you would send me your e-mail address I can then send e-mail directly to each interested parties at the same time. It is difficult to communicate effectively through the forums. You can respond directly to me. Please provide City, state, country so we'll be able to assess any unusual shipping needs.
Eventually, we will need deposits and your complete shipping information, including a phone #.

Jimmy S.
jimmys@cableone.net

[DetailersDomain]

so I was curious, how much would the vw phaeton brake cooling mod run, as well will the pagid 15 and 19's be good for street?

also are there any vendors here in the states that do stainless lines for the beast.

one more if I don't intend to do track events should I just stick with Oem rotors with the pagid pads and cooling ducts and brake fluid (motul).

Thanks!
Phil

[JP4]

so I was curious, how much would the vw phaeton brake cooling mod run, as well will the pagid 15 and 19's be good for street?

also are there any vendors here in the states that do stainless lines for the beast.

one more if I don't intend to do track events should I just stick with Oem rotors with the pagid pads and cooling ducts and brake fluid (motul).

Thanks!
Phil

Off the top of my head it seems like the cooling kit parts were about $200. As for using the Pagid Race pads on the street. I wouldn't recommend it for several reasons. Under "normal" driving you'll never get them hot enough to work properly. Using the pads cold will cause uneven pad deposits on the rotors. When you first get on the brakes when they're cold, they won't grab as well as the street pads. Could cause a problem <understatement> in a tight situation on the street. And switching between street pads and track pads with Pagids causes it's own set of issues. Especially if the street pads are carbon based and the track pads are ceramic based. Many have used Pagid Orange's for the street with good results but they can be noisy at street temps. The OEM rotors with other less aggressive Pagid track pad's may be OK but I think I would check with someone at Pagid directly before doing that just to be sure. The Motul RBF 600 fluid is OK for street use but you should change it out AT LEAST once a year. As for the brake ducts on the street....I typically take the scoops off for street use to avoid having road debris thrown on to the inside face of the rotor. That may be a bit anal but that's just the way I am on some things. On a similar note...I don't have the cooling duct scoops on when I'm bedding in a new set of pads.

As you may have surmized by now, using the vehicle on the street & the track creates it's own set of comprimises if you're trying to save time, effort and money. That's why some have just bitten the bullet and actually have a "track car" and a "street car". It would be nice to be able to afford that luxury!

I'm sure you can find a shop in any major metropolitan area that can "hook you up" with SS brake lines. And I know there are small shops in little towns scattered throughout the country that do this kind of work. It will take a little research to find them.

Don't know if I told you what you wanted to hear but that's my $0.02 worth!

[DetailersDomain]

thanks for the response ...so what would be a good street only set up. Stick with the oem rotors and pads?

[sechsgang]

thanks for the response ...so what would be a good street only set up. Stick with the oem rotors and pads?

seems sadly so short of a "BBK"

[jimmy94507]

thanks for the response ...so what would be a good street only set up. Stick with the oem rotors and pads?

JP4 gave an excellent response. If you don't have any desire to take your car to the track then you are OK with OEM. Audi spent a lot of money for the street setup.
If you like to be aggressive in the twisties quite often then you should consider flushing/replenishing brake fluid with Motul RBF600 and might want to consider RS14 front pads. If this is an occasional thing then stay with OEM pads and don't abuse them. If they get really hot, Slow Down, let them cool.
Or, you could put in RS14 for the times you want to go to the twisties, or the track, to push the car.
If you change your mind and want to spend time at the track, there's lots of good information in this post.

Regards, Jimmy S.

[Benman]

JP4 gave an excellent response. If you don't have any desire to take your car to the track then you are OK with OEM. Audi spent a lot of money for the street setup.


Ditto that.

I have some H-Sport sways I run, but that is it (brakes bone stock). The only reason I'd change (suspension) at all would be when (not if ;)) the DRC fails... as for brakes, works great for street.

Ben:addict:

[snoopra]

Where can I get the Phaeton cooling scoops kit?

[LU-RS6]

Where can I get the Phaeton cooling scoops kit?


You'll have to get the parts at your dealer and mend the pieces yourself so that they'll fit. Not a very hard job, you only have to cut out a piece.

[snoopra]

You'll have to get the parts at your dealer and mend the pieces yourself so that they'll fit. Not a very hard job, you only have to cut out a piece.

Guys and Gals, I REALLY want to do this MOD, but I live in the US Virgin Islands and we don't have any AUDI or VW dealerships here. Can someone purchase the parts (kit) for me and I'll send payment through paypal? If not, does anyone know a website I could buy the parts from?

[DuckWingDuck]

Parts are $210 from my local audi/vw dealership when it's all said and done. My technician is offering to help me take care of it but wanted to poll you guys to see how much I should pay him?

[cornishmoocher]

Parts are $210 from my local audi/vw dealership when it's all said and done. My technician is offering to help me take care of it but wanted to poll you guys to see how much I should pay him?
Hi Guy's, I havn't read all through this thread, but the Grizzmiester fitted my ducts a month or so ago, and they are fabulous. There will be a new vid up on my return home, showing the difference between my 8 mile thrash without the ducts (if you remember, the fade was awful!) and one conducted along the exact same route a few days ago. You will not believe the difference...........:hahahehe:

Alex

[DuckWingDuck]

Alex,

what do you think is a fair price to pay my technician for him to modify the ducts for me? I'm supplying the parts...

[cornishmoocher]

Grizz did mine including the parts for £110.00.
It really wasn't (now that I have seen it done) a massive job. About an hours labour in all. The jig was already done, the surplus section was cut out with an air saw and the edges ground smooth, the only bit I would be worried about would br removing and refitting the calipers. I would much rather get that done by a pro like Grizz seeing as my life depends on em!

[DuckWingDuck]

damn, including parts for £110?? For me the parts are about that much! Heh. Though I guess the big thing is that grizz's done it before and as you said, already had much of it done.

And I agree with you 100% about having a pro do it!

[cornishmoocher]

I am not sure whether I got a bit of "discount" as the wheels were off etc, as Grizz was doing my cam belt, rollers, tensioners and pulleys, aswell as the water pump and thermostat and a 50k mile service, including pollen filter and spark plugs, plus a couple of sexy black FORGE diveter valves..........:applause:

[grizz]

Do you want me to get a price on shipping to the us ?? I can cut and prep the kit so all you have to do is bolt it on .. Grizz

[cornishmoocher]

Grizz,

Your tag line will soon need to be - "Worldwide":jlol:

Is the 11th June still a possibility to come and see you for a bit more "tweeking":hahahehe:

Alex

[grizz]

Not a problem ....

[DuckWingDuck]

Grizz, please do that (Irvine, CA, zip code: 92604) and I generally get a 20$~30% discount for FedEx, let me know how much the shipping might be but if I had my audi tech do it, what do you think is a fair price?

[grizz]

I'll sort out a price tomorrow. g

[DuckWingDuck]

cheers mate!

[cornishmoocher]

Not a problem ....
Can you let me know quanto costa for a stage one CC tweek please mate?
I see that they are doing a special at GTIi. Cant make that it to that one unfortunately!
Cheers Alex

[ben916]

Can you let me know quanto costa for a stage one CC tweek please mate?
I see that they are doing a special at GTIi. Cant make that it to that one unfortunately!
Cheers Alex

shmoocher!?! donde su video of the rapid transit con cooled brake mod installed? video camera from inside AND one pointing at a front rotor while the run is happening....:hahahehe:

[snoopra]

I'll sort out a price tomorrow. g

grizz,
Can you prep a brake cooling kit for me too?:bow:
Wayne

[Spidercat]

Grizz,
Me, too?

pm sent

[cornishmoocher]

Grizz, Can I be your agent?????

[DuckWingDuck]

Grizz, Can I be your agent?????

lol@mooch trying to get a slice of the action!

[cornishmoocher]

lol@mooch trying to get a slice of the action!

Nothing ventured, nothing gained!!!!

[grizz]

Guys , i can do the kit ready to fit for £123.00 DELIVERED to the us ect .I will take pay pal .That is via royal mail air so delivery is 4-7 days , sea fright is half the cost but several weeks.

Thanks grizz

[DuckWingDuck]

grizz - what exactly is in the kit? Essentially, are these phaeton parts I bought included in your kit?

[itchingtogo]

Grizz, You have had experience with both these pad on the street no? I am looking for an alternative to the stock pad (dusty, loud and expensive). Do you have any words of wisdom?http://www.rs6.com/smilies/bowdown.gif

[DuckWingDuck]

I don't think ebc are cheaper than oems....?

[grizz]

E B C Yellow pads are £250 ish for a full set .OE fronts are £220 on there own ..

[DuckWingDuck]

damn, clearly time for the duck to jump on some ebcs the next time around!

[GrantG]

Interesting read guys... :thumb:

Grizz will take a cooling kit when you have one ready, let me know about the rest of the brake bits when you can. Ta mate.

Alex, where are your brake vids as I haven't seen them yet?

Seen anymore "steam powered" RS6s? :cheers:

:rs6kiss:

[cornishmoocher]

Interesting read guys... :thumb:

Grizz will take a cooling kit when you have one ready, let me know about the rest of the brake bits when you can. Ta mate.

Alex, where are your brake vids as I haven't seen them yet?

Seen anymore "steam powered" RS6s? :cheers:

:rs6kiss:
There on here somwhere Grant! The last one i did was shit, I knockedthe camera and you couldnt see much, but it did make a good comparison!

Steam power- its the way forward mate, Twin TURBINE RS6 C10 in 2020, with a headsup as standard and one of those catle shovers that you used to see on the trains over the pond, only it would be for bikers coming round bends on the wrong side......:vgrumpy:

[grizz]

Well guy's , tomorrow's the big day .....I'm going to fit my first "BIG" Kit.....
Now 395 x 36 fronts !!!! And a 4 piston alloy hand brake caliper on the rear .

Got them mocked up today and they look f*%king great ....

[cornishmoocher]

Well guy's , tomorrow's the big day .....I'm going to fit my first "BIG" Kit.....
Now 395 x 36 fronts !!!! And a 4 piston alloy hand brake caliper on the rear .

Got them mocked up today and they look f*%king great ....

Pictures required grizzmiester........................;)

[GrantG]

Here is a link to some pics of Grizz's new big brake setup on his RS6:

http://audisrs.com/sutra10433.php#10433

HTH

Grant

[DuckWingDuck]

that shit looks pretty hot.

[GrantG]

that shit looks pretty hot.:hihi: yep, he's doing the R&D on his RS6 for the kits he is going to be selling. Get in the queue quick if you want a set...:mech:

G

[grizz]

that shit looks pretty hot.

Thanks , i've now got some 356 x28 mm rear discs , as the standard rear's look lost under the 19's ...

[GEN XER]

Let's see here :vhmmm: .......how's this?


What happened with these rotors?

[DHall1]

Yeah, this is the new kit he is selling.

Actually, its just C6 RS6 rotors and the needed shims to reuse the C5 calipers.

I likey but still have stock 18" wheels.




What happened with these rotors?

[GrantG]

You should see the rear set he is developing - very cool hand brake caliper and disk mmmm

Damn, I should have taken a picture.

Nearly bought the big brake kit myself when I was there today - but bank manager (aka her indoors) said no...:nono:

[Mr Balsen]

is it possible to get a price range for the rear kit ?

Frederic

[DuckWingDuck]

dammit, we need grizz to come out with some gear and do some install jobs!!

[grizz]

As soon as the kit is tested later this week i'll have the prices sorted ....

[GEN XER]

Yeah, this is the new kit he is selling.

Actually, its just C6 RS6 rotors and the needed shims to reuse the C5 calipers.

I likey but still have stock 18" wheels.

Hey Dhall I was talking about the slotted ones posted by JP4. Whatever became of those rotors? Well what is the price of the C6 RS6 rotors and the kit for the fronts?

[GEN XER]

Bump....

[DuckWingDuck]

JP4's group buy is out I think. You need to buy a hat that you can reuse and the rotor rings are replaceable. They only did the front though.

[GEN XER]

Well I'm going to be getting some rotors when I wear out the pads on these. The rotors on mine will barely pass inspection here in VA now anyway. I don't need to upgrade the size, I just need to replace what I have without going through the dealer. I really like the C6 rotors however, and it looks like Ill be going that way.

[xpl0sive]

was the price for the front kit ever determined? i guess all you need to make those work are spacers for the calipers? let me know the price for the front kit...