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View Full Version : Audi R8 "7:55 around Nürburgring"



Erik
January 24th, 2007, 15:49
Audi engineers say they wanted the limits of the R8's chassis to be more approachable than those normally associated with a mid-engined supercar, or the tail heavy Porsche 911. "It starts to rotate [from understeer to oversteer] earlier than a 911," admitted one, "but it's much more controllable." It certainly feels very confidence inspiring, and there's little evidence to suggest the R8's ultimate dynamic ability has been compromised much -

Audi sources claim that with a lap time of 7min 55sec, the R8 is only 11 seconds slower around the legendary 14 mile Nurburgring Nordschliefe than the Lamborghini Gallardo, which of course has 100hp more.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/exotic/112_0701_2008_audi_r8


http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/image/2007/Q1/011920071128532184.jpg

Audi claims a top speed of 185 mph, which means the R8 is faster in a straight line than a 911 Carrera S. Yet it’s not as sporty as the Porsche and is likely to cost a lot more money in the U.S.—we estimate about $110,000. That’s still way cheaper than a Gallardo or Ferrari F430, its closest mid-engined rivals, and will make the R8 an alternative for prospective 911 Turbo and Aston V-8 Vantage buyers when it goes on sale in the fall of 2007 in the U.S.

http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12346/first-drive-2008-audi-r8.html


http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/204898/audi_r8.html

quattro Gmbh
January 24th, 2007, 16:56
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=10073

7:55 is very good compared with

7:55 --- 156.126 km/h – Ferrari F430 F1, 490 PS/1493 kg (sport auto 01/06)
7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Lamborghini Gallardo E-gear, 493 PS/1496 kg (sport auto 12/03)

7:53 RS6
January 24th, 2007, 18:40
Nice car, as well reported to be fast. Every time i see these new sportscars on the market i kind of get reminded of how great the CSL are(still even old)


Sorry

Leadfoot
January 24th, 2007, 19:47
7:53 RS6,

I must agree that in light of what was achieved by the CSL, all of the above look to have not moved the game on at all, but this really isn't the case. The R8 runs on normal road tyres as does the Gallardo where as the CSL runs on semi-slicks which just about pass as legal.

This is in no way taking anything way from the achievement of the Beemer, it's not only amazing when you consider how long ago it did it's time but also it's limited power and the fact that it's a plain vanilla sports coupe based on it's saloon brother.

For me Audi's R8 is amazing compared with it's piers, both the Ferrari and the Lambo have a lot better power to weight ratio and with the Ferrari comes the heritage and the belief that it should be the better car. Audi has combined the looks of the others with the drivability of the normal car, I know there has be few reviews but based on what has be written as far it will be no more scary to drive than any other Audi and with that the confidence that we all love.

What a motor.

7:53 RS6
January 25th, 2007, 13:47
7:53 RS6,

I must agree that in light of what was achieved by the CSL, all of the above look to have not moved the game on at all, but this really isn't the case. The R8 runs on normal road tyres as does the Gallardo where as the CSL runs on semi-slicks which just about pass as legal.

This is in no way taking anything way from the achievement of the Beemer, it's not only amazing when you consider how long ago it did it's time but also it's limited power and the fact that it's a plain vanilla sports coupe based on it's saloon brother.

For me Audi's R8 is amazing compared with it's piers, both the Ferrari and the Lambo have a lot better power to weight ratio and with the Ferrari comes the heritage and the belief that it should be the better car. Audi has combined the looks of the others with the drivability of the normal car, I know there has be few reviews but based on what has be written as far it will be no more scary to drive than any other Audi and with that the confidence that we all love.

What a motor.

Well said!
CSL is on topp on sport autos 25 best preforming list on the ring, regarding pulling G. Its on 7 place regarding ring time. CSL is on the same list way back at 22place or somthing regarding the same list toppspead and Cw. Power is not it all time, its the package that counts, anyway on track that is. CSL is faster than Maclaran SLR around the ring.

The vanilla ica sugar babe CSL pull the same high G as Pagani Zonda= 1,4 G.
Sure it got stickier tiers than Zonda, but then again Zonda got wider tiers as well wider body. Depending on a lot of things, due to that we can never be sure whats the gain whit r-compund vs nowdays new developed street tiers? But sure r-compund is r-compund, even old if you know what i mean, its better than street ditto!
M5 lap in 8.12 whit street tiers. The slightly lighter, slightly more focused M6 lap in 8.09 whit corsa r-compound! What do that tell us relly? Restricted or not, we can only speculate.

We all know that when the Michelins cup r-compund tiers came new developed on CSL late 2003, well it was the shit tier of all:dig: But as carmanufactors improve over years, even tier manufactors do. There are very god street compund on the market today, the years fly by as we wright here, dont they.

The mk2 Porsche GT3 RS, wich by many is a tru sports car pull 1.4 G on r-compound as well, its lighter than the CSL as well RS is on 295 wide r-compond. And the CSL is in many eyes not a tru sportscar, its on 265 wide tiers pulling 1,4 G as well? Its based on a massproduced car. BMW M did send the right signals whit CSL...we know how to do, dont we.

The all new 997 GT3 RS whit new developed 2007 michelin cup r- compund 305 wide laps whit Horst at the steering wheel at 7.45min! Thats the all new developed 414+hp GT3 RS! The new normal 997 GT3 Horst lap in 7.48.

The very old CSL from 2003 whit 265 wide r-compund in rear, as well related to the very much vanilla 3 seris that is world wide on sale, well it laps whit 360hp at 7.50.

Now this is a car that some will remember as special, it might be a historical referes.

Audi is on to somthing these days, there are a new kind of Audi spirit in the cars these days, that i like. R8 is very cool indead.

Leadfoot
January 25th, 2007, 17:19
The M5 and the M6 are a different animal to the CSL when you talk about the tyres. The CSL was solely designed and set-up for R-compound tyres, the M6 wasn't, the 6 seconds reduction in time is solely the improve on grip alone. The M6's time would improve a lot more if the car had solely been set-up for the tyres like the CSL was. Also there has been bigger improvements on tyre technology so possibly their isn't the improvements in R-compound over normal tyres.

The R8 is very much a usable supercar in the same mould as the 911, when you see it's a whole 8 seconds quicker than the 997 Carerra 4S with ceramic brakes this is a lot considering the experience Porsche has around the ring.

On the CSL, has anyone equalled that time of 7:50 on a standard CSL. Not the start an argument, there has been a lot said in some circles that this time was achieved by a non-standard car. What is your feeling on this and how close has you got to this time.

7:53 RS6
January 26th, 2007, 15:36
What i meant about the tiers on M5 vs M6, was just to point out that the diffrens might not be more than a few seconds even if R8 would go around on R-compound vs R8 go around on normal tiers.

Well im not sure i know what you mean when you say the CSL was set up for R-comp, was not M6?. As i know M6 come stock whit R-comp aswell, i guess its the same then. But hey.. lets not forget its more than tiers that set these cars apart, the to cars fore sure are diffrent in many ways, thats why the time around also is diffrent.

Regarding CSLs time around it always gets down to this, is it for real. Well im sure the CSL time is as real aswell the car was as stock as all other cars tested in Sport Autos supertest! This only proves in my mind anyway, not to many know what potential a stock CSL got. The whole point whit Horst superstest is to see what plain stock cars can manage. Not to strange Horst got big problems to even get some cars to be tested. I spoke to him a while a go, and he is very keen on testing some Ferraris, but he never get one? Why he ask him selv, as well its gets me thinking.

Back to CSL. All i know im about 30 seconds slower than Horst in my stock CSL. Im a strawberry:doh: if comperd to Horst regarding driving the ring. But im pretty confident as im going to meat Horst at Sport autos event this summer at the ring that i will go faster after this. Well im sure after driving whit him there for 2 day, i will be faster for sure.
Only to let him drive in front of me for some laps are going to make me gain speed around, let alone have him in my car.
As im a strawberry driver and im 30 second slower, i feel no nead to question that Horst and Sport auto drove a stock CSL at 7.50.
There are 73 bends thru the ring where i can improve. I will easy find 15 seconds of speed just on my own down there, if only i had the time and money. Horst more or less eat, drink and shit the ring:harass: , i mean he knows his way around, i dont. He is a faster driver, nothing else. He dident drive a magical super CSL that the M peopel at Garching bei München had specally fixed for this test, thats like this fun:lovl: The CSL horst drove is the same like every other CSL.

Leadfoot
January 26th, 2007, 16:30
I wasn't picking at the time of the CSL, just asking your view on the rumour that it was tricked up for the test. The reason I brought up the point about the M6 was different than the CSL's set-up was more a case of the CSL was solely set-up to run these tyres, yes you could of bought one without them but the performance drop was major as one UK magazine proved in a test for comparation. Though the M6 is sold with them it's set-up is more forgiving with them on and the move to oversteer easier to catch in comparation to that of the CSL. That's why I say the set-up is different, one is a GT car and the other in a race car that can also be used on the road just like the GT3RS.

I class the M6 as a 997Turbo and the CSL as a GT3RS that is why I think with the right set-up the R8 would go a lot quick with R-compound tyres than the different between the M6 and the M5.

Speedou
January 26th, 2007, 17:52
Huoh, why I always see the CSL in these kind of topics. I'm bored to it :boring: Personally I love the CSL and I know how amazing it is. But please let it be, totally different car than R8.

7.53, we all know that you have it and you love it, but please not in every single topic where it comes to ring time :thumb:

Leadfoot
January 26th, 2007, 18:17
Huoh, why I always see the CSL in these kind of topics. I'm bored to it :boring: Personally I love the CSL and I know how amazing it is. But please let it be, totally different car than R8.

7.53, we all know that you have it and you love it, but please not in every single topic where it comes to ring time :thumb:

Sorry, I too got carried away there.

Back to the R8, for it to match the F430 is an amazing feat especially first time out of the box so to speak for a supercar, it might be based on the Gallardo but it's a totally different animal, bigger, easier to drive and not as extreme but only 3 seconds slower and with more weight and less power. And when you compare the power to weight of the R8 against the F430 the difference is major. :bigeyes:

No doubt the motoring press will place it behind the rest of the competition with regards to fun and feel and all the thing they have always had against Audi, but there is no denying it's speed especially around a given track. Luckily Audi driver are too intelligent to listen to such dribble, I only hope the rest of the buying public are just as intelligent.:thumb:

7:53 RS6
January 26th, 2007, 20:51
Huoh, why I always see the CSL in these kind of topics. I'm bored to it :boring: Personally I love the CSL and I know how amazing it is. But please let it be, totally different car than R8.

7.53, we all know that you have it and you love it, but please not in every single topic where it comes to ring time :thumb:

Well im hardly in here any longer so be happy. I guess you will hardly die due to getting bored anyway.

What ever the subject might be, well ok, but when it comes to new launches of sportscars and them preforming on the ring, well you better get used to it that them will get looked at vs other cars.

Leadfoot
January 26th, 2007, 21:05
Now, now children no fighting. We are all big boys here.

7:53 RS6
January 26th, 2007, 22:34
I wasn't picking at the time of the CSL, just asking your view on the rumour that it was tricked up for the test. The reason I brought up the point about the M6 was different than the CSL's set-up was more a case of the CSL was solely set-up to run these tyres, yes you could of bought one without them but the performance drop was major as one UK magazine proved in a test for comparation. Though the M6 is sold with them it's set-up is more forgiving with them on and the move to oversteer easier to catch in comparation to that of the CSL. That's why I say the set-up is different, one is a GT car and the other in a race car that can also be used on the road just like the GT3RS.

I class the M6 as a 997Turbo and the CSL as a GT3RS that is why I think with the right set-up the R8 would go a lot quick with R-compound tyres than the different between the M6 and the M5.

Ledfoot i know you dident pick on the time but as you say its rumors, and there was my saying about it. Hope it dident came out wrong. The preformance drop, well what UK mag said that. I guess the preformance drop will always go down if on less gripy compound, its hardly a case for just CSL, even GT3 RS as well new RS4.

Anyway i would be glad to hear what this UK mag came at, how much did it differ then.

Horst drove Aston Martin Vantage V8 at the ring on 2 diffrent tiers .
Now this is not any refrence to all cars, we nead to have that in mind. But the gain on r-compound in this specific case whit this specific car and driver, well he was 10 seconds faster on R-compound(8.03 min) vs street tiers. It was Pirellis Corsa R-c vs Bridgestone street tiers. Very impressive time for a 1636kg car whit 385hp:revs:

The CSL is very drivebel even whit street tiers, even more so whit the right newly developed street tiers there is, among other reasons its due to the weight is not a critcal issue on CSL even its not flyweight. But sure CSL come to life for real whit the stickyer compound

CSL and M6 as well all M cars are all easy catch on drift. The diffrence is only CSL pull higher G than rest so when it come lose in rear its in greater speeds:applause: . Sure some cars are more suited for R-c, i think its more due to some cars genral constuktion(weight, etc) rather than some settings. That dont mean one dont nead to sett up racecars right, if you know what i mean.

To be frank the CSL is not set up stock even to what standards Michelin recomend for using the CUP tier on track even. CSL is not sett agressive from factory as well one cant sett it very much. Even new RS4 got more agressive stock camber settings than CSL, if im not lost in memory.
The CSL came as stock in numbers on normal street tiers as well, that could hardly been done if the setup was to track focused, it was not! You cant adjust camber in rear on CSL, in front you can a bit only. And thats one of the biggest issu whit CSL, that one cant adjust camber to levels that one nead. Sure on the ring its no issu driving stock cambers. But drive CSL stock cambers on a small track and you use up the front tiers in no time. God for BMW if one buy tiers at that place bad for my dollars.

The gain whit R-compound is not that high on say one stock R8 or gallardo or 997 turbo due to they all redy have plenty of grip(awd, etc). New 997 turbo is very fast on street tiers, its down on a 7.45 min lap! Whit R-compound only a few seconds faster.

Leadfoot
January 27th, 2007, 01:03
Ledfoot i know you dident pick on the time but as you say its rumors, and there was my saying about it. Hope it dident came out wrong. The preformance drop, well what UK mag said that. I guess the preformance drop will always go down if on less gripy compound, its hardly a case for just CSL, even GT3 RS as well new RS4.

Anyway i would be glad to hear what this UK mag came at, how much did it differ then.

The difference was 6 seconds around the Bedford track which is less than 2 minutes, quite a bit if you ask me. They put the CSL tyres on a standard M3 but it only gain the half of this, proving that the set-up of the CSL suits the R-compound better than the standard car.


Horst drove Aston Martin Vantage V8 at the ring on 2 diffrent tiers .
Now this is not any refrence to all cars, we nead to have that in mind. But the gain on r-compound in this specific case whit this specific car and driver, well he was 10 seconds faster on R-compound(8.03 min) vs street tiers. It was Pirellis Corsa R-c vs Bridgestone street tiers. Very impressive time for a 1636kg car whit 385hp:revs:

The CSL is very drivebel even whit street tiers, even more so whit the right newly developed street tiers there is, among other reasons its due to the weight is not a critcal issue on CSL even its not flyweight. But sure CSL come to life for real whit the stickyer compound

CSL and M6 as well all M cars are all easy catch on drift. The diffrence is only CSL pull higher G than rest so when it come lose in rear its in greater speeds:applause: . Sure some cars are more suited for R-c, i think its more due to some cars genral constuktion(weight, etc) rather than some settings. That dont mean one dont nead to sett up racecars right, if you know what i mean.

CSL is not sett agressive from factory as well one cant sett it very much. Even new RS4 got more agressive stock camber settings than CSL, if im not lost in memory.

The reason the CSL pulls more Gs is solely down to set-up, I think you are misunderstand what I mean by this, set-up not only includes suspension but also aerodynamics, the CSL produces a lot less lift than the M6, Aston or RS4 and quite possibly produces downforce the key to unlocking the magic grip that is to be found in R-compound rubber. The reason why the RS4 has a more aggressive camber than the CSL is because it needs it, the nose is a lot heavier and this helps control it's natural tendency to understeer, similar things have been done to the TT.


The gain whit R-compound is not that high on say one stock R8 or gallardo or 997 turbo due to they all redy have plenty of grip(awd, etc). New 997 turbo is very fast on street tiers, its down on a 7.45 min lap! Whit R-compound only a few seconds faster.

Again this will all be down to how much downforce each of this cars produce, stock tyres produce high levels of mechanical grip similar but not quite as high as R-compound tyres and the gap between the two types increase greatly with downforce where heat becomes an issue, race tyres love it, road tyres hate it. I don't doubt that all of the above cars would improve possibly 5~8 seconds unless their set-up was changed to use the full advantage available from the tyres, then up to 12~15 seconds could possibly be up for grabs.

I'm not an expert but I do understand the mechanics of the thing.:thumb:

Audiphile
January 27th, 2007, 07:12
Don't forget that Audi has to leave room for the V10 for the R8. It should be faster and more potent and will beat the time of 7.55.

7:53 RS6
January 27th, 2007, 12:20
The difference was 6 seconds around the Bedford track which is less than 2 minutes, quite a bit if you ask me. They put the CSL tyres on a standard M3 but it only gain the half of this, proving that the set-up of the CSL suits the R-compound better than the standard car.
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@ledi
I dont know what you mean when you say set up for CSL. I mean CSL is made as it is and M3 is made as it is. Yes there are reasons why CSL is faster than M3 even on the same tiers. This has nothing to do whit set up. Its becuse a lot of things that M peopel did when they made it. Its not due some set up.
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The reason the CSL pulls more Gs is solely down to set-up, I think you are misunderstand what I mean by this, set-up not only includes suspension but also aerodynamics, the CSL produces a lot less lift than the M6, Aston or RS4 and quite possibly produces downforce the key to unlocking the magic grip that is to be found in R-compound rubber. The reason why the RS4 has a more aggressive camber than the CSL is because it needs it, the nose is a lot heavier and this helps control it's natural tendency to understeer, similar things have been done to the TT.
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@ ledi
Again they are to diffrent cars, they are build whit to diffrent things in mind they are built diffrent. Not set up diffrent.
I not sure about any lifts, but i know CSL and M6, and M5 all are down on 16 place on sport autos list on Cw x A, they all produce 0.68.

Porsche Carerra S is on top of this list at 0.54
I know Aston martin vantage V8 prodce 1.3 G on the Corsa r-comp and is on 10 place on Cw list at 0.66.
GT3 MK 2 RS produce a 20kg front lift at 200km/h
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Again this will all be down to how much downforce each of this cars produce, stock tyres produce high levels of mechanical grip similar but not quite as high as R-compound tyres and the gap between the two types increase greatly with downforce where heat becomes an issue, race tyres love it, road tyres hate it. I don't doubt that all of the above cars would improve possibly 5~8 seconds unless their set-up was changed to use the full advantage available from the tyres, then up to 12~15 seconds could possibly be up for grabs.

I'm not an expert but I do understand the mechanics of the thing.:thumb:
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@ledi
What you discribe obove is not the case on the ring relly.
Well we all know R-compu is in favor of street comp. But as im trying to point out the diffrence on the ring is not that big. You know why, well the street tiers dont suffer at the ring due to its not a track that over heat them. Therfor in some case as whit awd cars that aswell alredy have god grip together whit that the ring is kind to street tiers, well the gain is not always that big that one can imagin vs R-comp.

Just se what you wrote your self regarding the CSL at bedford, these tracks tend to stress street tiers more than the ring do. Even i think 6 second is much at that track, well.
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7:53 RS6
January 27th, 2007, 12:41
O, and what ever the set up as you say. The set up as you call it or constuktion, well on R8 its latest technology anyway. What ever the aim on this car was im pretty sure its produced in a sportyway, so the set up as you call it should be up to date also regardig to its aerodynamics, chassis etc, would you not agree.
Its not an old constuction like CSL then is it?

As well M6, RS4, GT3 RS 997, turbo 997 is all brand new set ups then(constuktions). Not old once.

KresoF1
January 27th, 2007, 13:41
Factory claim for Lamborghini Gallardo(520hp version, Corsa tires) is 7.44min for Ring. As we wll know von Saurma did 7.52min with old 500hp version. New Gallardo Supertest will be published in next six months... Expect around 7.50min for 520hp Gallardo with Corsas...

So, what does that mean for R8? Since factory claim is "around 7.55min"(with optional Corsas! I know that because my best friend is regional director of Sales for Audi in Southeast Europe) we can expect around 7.58min in von Saurma hands. Too slow? I do not think so because all faster cars are either more powerfull(F430, Gallardo and 997 turbo) or track oriented streetcars(M3CSL, 997GT3 and 997GT3RS).
R8 chassis has huge potential IMHO...

BTW, difference between R8 and Gallardo or 997 turbo will be extremly small in Hockenheim!

Leadfoot
January 27th, 2007, 14:18
O, and what ever the set up as you say. The set up as you call it or constuktion, well on R8 its latest technology anyway. What ever the aim on this car was im pretty sure its produced in a sportyway, so the set up as you call it should be up to date also regardig to its aerodynamics, chassis etc, would you not agree.
Its not an old constuction like CSL then is it?

As well M6, RS4, GT3 RS 997, turbo 997 is all brand new set ups then(constuktions). Not old once.

If you look at F1 you would think things have moved on quite a bit in recent years, but that is not really the case. They have dropped things like Active Suspension and Ground Effect, both things that if they were used in today's cars would make an amazing difference. Likewise in modern cars safety plays a bigger role dictating the construction above all else, also economy plays a big role even in supercars, all companies have to show they are trying to improve.

If you look at the front end and rear spoiler of the CSL in comparison with the standard car you can see that the car has been engineered for improved aerodynamics, how much these effect the lift or downforce I am not sure, but they are not for show.

You say that normal tyres don't heat up that much on the ring, if the was the case there would be no need for any semi-race cars like the CSL/GT3RS and the likes to use them, after all these tyres are just about legal for road use and provide almost no grip in the wet. So why have them if they don't provide a benefit. Why, I'll tell you why, all of the above produce different levels of downforce to help the tyres produce extra grip which in turn produces extra heat aiding the compound in these tyres to produce even more grip. Normal cars even the likes of the M6 and the RS4 don't produce this downforce, they are at best trying to stop lift which as we all know was the downfall of the original TT and lead to the accidents that happen just after launch.

I will agree that the ring is not comparable to other high G short tracks as though it does allow cars to produce high Gs the track is more about controlling the unsettling forces that each corner puts on the car.

The CSL is an amazing car, no one is doubting that, but have you not ever asked yourself why has BMW with all it's experience on the ring not been able to better this blast from the past. The M5/M6/M Coupe and all bets are that the new M3 won't even get close to it's time, why when as you said it's the latest technology.

Don't for one moment think that the CSL is just a dickied M3, there was a lot more to that car than just a few lighter panels, race tyres and a grippy steering wheel.

Please accept that the R8 is an amazing car, both striking and comfortable, drivable and entertaining and the equal of the competition eg. the Gallardo/F430 and the likes and stop comparing it to the CSL who's real competition is and was the GT3 in all it's forms and the likes of the Vette Z06, cars designed for one purpose only to use race technology to aid their ability of going around a track as quickly as possible and to hell with everything else.

7:53 RS6
January 28th, 2007, 12:58
If you look at F1 you would think things have moved on quite a bit in recent years, but that is not really the case. They have dropped things like Active Suspension and Ground Effect, both things that if they were used in today's cars would make an amazing difference. Likewise in modern cars safety plays a bigger role dictating the construction above all else, also economy plays a big role even in supercars, all companies have to show they are trying to improve.

If you look at the front end and rear spoiler of the CSL in comparison with the standard car you can see that the car has been engineered for improved aerodynamics, how much these effect the lift or downforce I am not sure, but they are not for show.
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@ ledi
I have driven the Döttingerhöhe section on the ring whit a broken front spoiler as well many times whit complete spolier. You know the Döttingerhöe is the fastest section on the ring, so yes i happen to know there are a reason for cars to have spoilers on them. A CSL travels about 260-270 on speedo if one is man to not do the confidence lift on the way down to Tiergarten that is.
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You say that normal tyres don't heat up that much on the ring, if the was the case there would be no need for any semi-race cars like the CSL/GT3RS and the likes to use them, after all these tyres are just about legal for road use and provide almost no grip in the wet. So why have them if they don't provide a benefit. Why, I'll tell you why, all of the above produce different levels of downforce to help the tyres produce extra grip which in turn produces extra heat aiding the compound in these tyres to produce even more grip. Normal cars even the likes of the M6 and the RS4 don't produce this downforce, they are at best trying to stop lift which as we all know was the downfall of the original TT and lead to the accidents that happen just after launch.
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@ledi
Its well known that one of the few tracks one can manage to drive pretty well whit street tiers is on the ring! If you drove ther you know. Shorter track where speed is low as well hairpins etc, well this make street tiers suffer to very much higher extent. This is the same reason why a Ford Mondeo kombi on winter friction tiers as well is in a way is fun on the ring(drove one 2 month ago, as well Cayman, 997 turbo, BMW all new 320SI, and last BMW 318.) Due to its a fast track and the physiques of a car is as you as well mentioned not that obvius on the ring, well most cars is fun there and the street tiers do lhandel it pretty well. They dont last even a few laps on a short track, they overheat faster there. I think we agree on that.

That street tiers do just fine on the ring, very fine on some cars(awd) well......This has nothing to do whit the nead for other compound is not there!. One thing dont leave out the other, im sure you know where im going. As well i know there are superior tiers than street. I happen to drive my CSL whit a racelogics dritbox all time latly, even its no V-box its as precise regarding laptime and real speed. Even the G shows. (driftangels etc) Sport auto use on as well, as well many other testing mags.

You sems to forget the cars like M5/6 RS4 whatever , less or more downforce, they have a critical issu that as well make them not so fast on track and not pull higher G(weight)
Even a few hevy cars manage to pull some G, the above dont. Aston Martin V8 vantage or Mercedes CLK DTM, this CLK at almost 1700kg it pull1.3 G acording to sport auto. Accived whit minimal movment in the chassi as well wide sport tiers, it laps at 7.54 min whit 582hp and 800nm and a automatic transmision.
Wich put the DTM CLK at 12 place on sport autos 25 fastest ring cars List(CSL is on 7th place)
Lets see wait and see where Horst put the R8 on his list then, as of now we dont know. We know Audi do fine interior, but still its more to it that that beeing a modern sportscar, or?
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I will agree that the ring is not comparable to other high G short tracks as though it does allow cars to produce high Gs the track is more about controlling the unsettling forces that each corner puts on the car.

The CSL is an amazing car, no one is doubting that, but have you not ever asked yourself why has BMW with all it's experience on the ring not been able to better this blast from the past. The M5/M6/M Coupe and all bets are that the new M3 won't even get close to it's time, why when as you said it's the latest technology.

Don't for one moment think that the CSL is just a dickied M3, there was a lot more to that car than just a few lighter panels, race tyres and a grippy steering wheel.

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@ Ledi No i have not asked my self why they have not beat the blast from the past whit the cars you mention. I know som things you apperantly dont. Well guess why, M,s aim whit the porker M5/6 or M coupe was never to go faster than CSL. They are pretty smart guys, the market are not asking for a M5 or M6 or M coupe that is faster than CSL on track, now are they. What fool would try to make a 1844kg M5 go faster than a 1421kg CSL. What marketing guy would allow M coupe to come stock on R-compound, so it could have a try for it? M coupe has not been tested whit R-compound on the ring as i know? As well the aim whit it was not to out lap CSL. What ever the power the M5 would had, it would not been faster than CSL you see, as well latest technology cant exaktly do magic to pork, can it?.

There are reasons why cayman dont have a diffrential, there are reasons why R8 might not go faster than gallardo on track, i dont know?

As far as new M3, well its no CSL, sure it will have power, but thats not all on track is it! New M3 will sell to the mass, whit all extra options, adding pork. I dont belive anything else than M peopel will let it go less fast than CSL on track, i might be wrong, but i dont think so.
I do know for sure if new CSL will build. But if, well here it comes, this cars aim is to go faster than old CSL, as well new GT3 RS that lap at 7.45 min. New CSL will easy go faster than this, and it will not do it by pure engin power let alone, no the new CSL will rely be light, thats where one gain speed at track. M department know this. As well maketing BMW guys know today weekend trackdays event is getting bigger and bigger, so by the time CSL is here its fore the few focused track hobby drivers, driving back and forth to tracks in it, the extra options and pork is in normal M3.
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Please accept that the R8 is an amazing car, both striking and comfortable, drivable and entertaining and the equal of the competition eg. the Gallardo/F430 and the likes and stop comparing it to the CSL who's real competition is and was the GT3 in all it's forms and the likes of the Vette Z06, cars designed for one purpose only to use race technology to aid their ability of going around a track as quickly as possible and to hell with everything else.

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@ Ledi
Regarding R8, i have never said anything else than its a nice car.
Last i agree here.
But if you read Audi marketing text, they talk big of ractechnology in R8 dont they?

Cheers

Leadfoot
January 28th, 2007, 13:56
[Quote 7:53RS6]@ Ledi No i have not asked my self why they have not beat the blast from the past whit the cars you mention. I know som things you apperantly dont. Well guess why, M,s aim whit the porker M5/6 or M coupe was never to go faster than CSL. They are pretty smart guys, the market are not asking for a M5 or M6 or M coupe that is faster than CSL on track, now are they. What fool would try to make a 1844kg M5 go faster than a 1421kg CSL. What marketing guy would allow M coupe to come stock on R-compound, so it could have a try for it? M coupe has not been tested whit R-compound on the ring as i know? As well the aim whit it was not to out lap CSL. What ever the power the M5 would had, it would not been faster than CSL you see, as well latest technology cant exaktly do magic to pork, can it?.

As far as new M3, well its no CSL, sure it will have power, but thats not all on track is it! New M3 will sell to the mass, whit all extra options, adding pork. I dont belive anything else than M peopel will let it go less fast than CSL on track, i might be wrong, but i dont think so.
I do know for sure if new CSL will build. But if, well here it comes, this cars aim is to go faster than old CSL, as well new GT3 RS that lap at 7.45 min. New CSL will easy go faster than this, and it will not do it by pure engin power let alone, no the new CSL will rely be light, thats where one gain speed at track. M department know this. As well maketing BMW guys know today weekend trackdays event is getting bigger and bigger, so by the time CSL is here its fore the few focused track hobby drivers, driving back and forth to tracks in it, the extra options and pork is in normal M3.[quote]


Thanks, you have basically answered the question I have being putting to you. The rest of the M cars are no track specials like the CSL, this is also true of the R8, Gallardo, F430, RS4 etc. all these including the rest of the M cars are for road use and if the customer wishes be taken on to the track and have a bit of fun.

This is why some of the guys get annoyed when you bring up the CSL every time an Audi does an amazing lap at the ring, compare apples with apples they say, the RS4 with the new M3 is a fair comparison as will be the RS6 with the M5 but not the CSL.:0:

The fact that an Audi is beating a BMW around a track is cause for a celebration, because it proves that not only is Audi's nose-heavy quattro cars amazing on the road as we all know but they are very handy on the track as well.

I look forward to BMW's venture back into the supercar market and hope they do a lot better sales wise than their last, because without BMW making cars we would not have them as a yard stick to gauge Audi's brilliance.:hihi:

7:53 RS6
January 29th, 2007, 14:14
Peace:0:

Last.. CSL is very far from a racecar!

It happen to be a street car that drives well on track:music:

Gee.. its some days my family car, we sit in 4 persons driving to the macdonald:jlol: whit the golfclubs in the back trunk:D

Best we let som other peopel wright here now:hihi:

R8 looks stunning, great pitch from audi, to bad they nead to take lamborgini in to calculations(gallardo).

:cheers:

Leadfoot
January 29th, 2007, 16:05
7:53RS6,

You are willing to admit that the CSL is a little special compared to the rest of the M series of cars. For heaven sakes it the same as the GT3RS, yes you can use it everyday just like the rest of the 911 range but it isn't built for the same purpose as the rest of them. Very few people would think of taking a CSL or GT3 on a grand tour of Europe in the same way as they would the M3 or the Turbo.

Like what the rest of the gang say, compare like with like.:thumb:

7:53 RS6
January 29th, 2007, 17:44
7:53RS6,

You are willing to admit that the CSL is a little special compared to the rest of the M series of cars. For heaven sakes it the same as the GT3RS, yes you can use it everyday just like the rest of the 911 range but it isn't built for the same purpose as the rest of them. Very few people would think of taking a CSL or GT3 on a grand tour of Europe in the same way as they would the M3 or the Turbo.

Like what the rest of the gang say, compare like with like.:thumb:

Yes, yes....it was just a thought :revs:

Even i driven the CSL from Sweden to Poland and back, and it dident hurt my back, and its pretty comfy accualy on long trips, sure some times one would like to lean the seat down, wich cant bee done in the bucketseats.. I think its a myth that the car can hardly drive on streets. I was going to one GT track in Poland, and let me say this, if my vissit was others than track....wel ok i would driven the trip down in one other car, the RS4/6, horses for courses as one say:music:

Leadfoot
January 29th, 2007, 17:52
Oh 7:53 RS6 that must have hurt to admit that in the end I was right. At least we can both admit, that like the CSL the R8 is one hell of a car.

7:53 RS6
January 29th, 2007, 19:03
Oh 7:53 RS6 that must have hurt to admit that in the end I was right. At least we can both admit, that like the CSL the R8 is one hell of a car.

I think its no wrong or right, we all see tings diffrent. As well express things in their weiw, thats the intresting thing whit forums. We have discused so long here, whats right or wrong? Nothing might bee, we all see things in diffrent ways, dont we.

Leadfoot
January 29th, 2007, 19:31
I think its no wrong or right, we all see tings diffrent. As well express things in their weiw, thats the intresting thing whit forums. We have discused so long here, whats right or wrong? Nothing might bee, we all see things in diffrent ways, dont we.


OK, but I deep down I know you agree with me.:hihi:

Speedou
January 29th, 2007, 19:32
So it was comparing R8 to other sportcars, not to the CSL :p Which anyway is totally different. But I admit Leadfood, both are great cars!

Leadfoot
January 29th, 2007, 20:36
So it was comparing R8 to other sportcars, not to the CSL :p Which anyway is totally different. But I admit Leadfood, both are great cars!

Speedou, if you had read any of my posts you know I rate the CSL very highly indeed, but compare like with like. If someone say the new M3 is an amazing car and did a 8:02 lap and I said so what the Carrera GT did it 30 seconds quicker then everyone would rightly say unfair comparison, just because one costs 5 times as much isn't the unfair part, it's the fact that the Carrera GT is a supercar honed for the track.

The R8 is a rival to the likes of the Aston, 997, XKR etc. the fact that it's producing times to equal the likes of the F430 is amazing and a feat not to be played down just by saying it's not as quick as something that with design to go as quickly around the ring as BMW could possibly make it.

Regardless of what 7:53RS6 says it's not an M3 for comfort and touring in just the same way as the GT3 isn't as comfortable as a Carrera S. If Audi bring out a R8 track special than lets compare it with the GT3 and the CSL but until that day lets compare it with the competition.

7:53 RS6
January 29th, 2007, 23:47
Nice car, as well reported to be fast. Every time i see these new sportscars on the market i kind of get reminded of how great the CSL are(still even old)


Sorry
I quote my self, to ease down the gentlemen.

Nice car, i said at begining of this tread, about the R8.

Then i got sentimental about an very old BMW sportscar, fore that i did say im sorry. This was in a way said, so that i would not nead my flame suit fhuther on:hihi:

At this point there was no comparing was it, untill you started of whit, well, it got R-tiers, etc, etc.

I replied and it was on, but see my text, i put CSL against its tru competitors, if you read it you see, 997GT3 RS , 996 GT3 RS, etc..

What ever, why do you even think this non offical R8 time is out in the air, Audi compare them self whit others. Kind of normal we compare Audi R8 as well.

Dont forget that this time mentioned is not the officall time for R8. Horst has not driven it. All other times mentioned are offically driven by Horst. My guess is Horst lap R8 at same time he lap a 997 carerra S on street tiers, 8.04 min.

When we guess Horst time before he driven the new RS4, and the non officall Stippler time was out at sub 8 min whit the new RS4, well i was spot on guessing the RS4s time, i was of by some second if i remember correct. Its on the forum some where, fun reading after some time gone by. Some here was, well to say the least optimistic and guesed that new RS4 would lap in CSL region, they was of by 25 seconds.

BMW also rapport a sub 8 min lap on M5, not that i use that time for compring cars to it.

Some would see R8 as an all new developed extrem mid engine sportscar, whit race technology in it, apperently you dont see it in this way, you see the 4 year old CSL as somthing more extrem.
Well guess how new CSL will bee, if one have in mind you rate a old produkt like CSL so high, that it still after many yeras, according to you in no way, shape or form could compare round a track against CSL!

Have you read what Audi them self say about R8, and in what ways they mention the car. Whit its diffusors and the aerodynamics was in focus while developed the car. Its lubricate system of engine, a inheritance from motorsport, etc, etc.

All car driven at the track,green hell, are in some ways in it for the comparing game
You say R8 is not fair to compare to CSL, i say in many way it is, also as its a totaly new up to date extrem sportscar at high tech level, at high price. Accualy its audis first real sports car, why not compare it to CSL, its the only thing close to it anyway at track, fore that reason its logic. And in some ways i see your point that they not compare.

Leadfoot
January 30th, 2007, 09:33
Fair point 7:53RS6 and sorry for going on as well. I reckon we two have very strong views on the subject that spills out into print on this forum. I posted on another tread that I reckon Horst is less use to driving awd cars and the quattro set-up more than most what with it's 40/60 split and being nose heavy, that maybe why his time is that much slower than Audi's unofficial time of 7:58. I believe the R8 will perform a lot better in his hands though especially as it's weight and awd system is more attune to a rwd set-up.

I would go out on a limb and say sub-8 minutes is still on the cards.:thumb: