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RXBG
January 10th, 2007, 19:09
for 2009 MY- it will be a year of V10 monsters.

the NSX

the LF-A

and the V6 or V8 GTR

the R8 will be surely up to the task and the reason why audi is in no hurry to show it just yet............ with 500 hp and the overachieving personality to add (the V8 model circles the ring in just a tad less then the 997 TT from various confidential accounts)..... audi will not fall behind.

exciting times indeed.

despite the added heft i am sure the V10 will feel as light and tight as the V8. now a modded V8............... mmmmmmmmmmmmh :MTM:

KiwiRS4
January 10th, 2007, 20:11
Now let me see, buy a great European built car or a rice rocket - NO BRAINER

JavierNuvolari
January 10th, 2007, 20:20
Those japanese Hi-Per cars will sure be one hell of a competition, specially if Nissan and Honda launch a GTR and a NSX that can live up to it's predecesors.
As for the R8...perhaps Audi should launch a TTV8 version with 500hp-530hp, after all the Le Mans R8 had a TTV8 if my memory doesn't fail on me.

Cheers,

Javier

Damienr8
January 10th, 2007, 21:16
for 2009 MY- it will be a year of V10 monsters.

the NSX

the LF-A

and the V6 or V8 GTR

the R8 will be surely up to the task and the reason why audi is in no hurry to show it just yet............ with 500 hp and the overachieving personality to add (the V8 model circles the ring in just a tad less then the 997 TT from various confidential accounts)..... audi will not fall behind.

exciting times indeed.

despite the added heft i am sure the V10 will feel as light and tight as the V8. now a modded V8............... mmmmmmmmmmmmh :MTM:


Funny thing is that I have no fear that the Audi R8 will dominate the above competition. From all the previews/unofficial lap times/etc. the audi R8(V8) surpassed what it was meant to do in the first place.

I can only imagine that If Audi can place a V10 in there, (that somehow weighs only a little more than the V8) and match that to a slick-shifting, reliable 6-speed manual............there will be no competition.

RXBG
January 10th, 2007, 21:33
Funny thing is that I have no fear that the Audi R8 will dominate the above competition. From all the previews/unofficial lap times/etc. the audi R8(V8) surpassed what it was meant to do in the first place.

I can only imagine that If Audi can place a V10 in there, (that somehow weighs only a little more than the V8) and match that to a slick-shifting, reliable 6-speed manual............there will be no competition.

if the gods are on our side and a dsg debuts with the V10 god help all of the above AND the F430 and the "re"-updated gallardo ( :rolleyes: )

3abdo
January 10th, 2007, 21:35
i think that the new NSX will be a monster, they now how to make slick manual transmission, they can make an engine rev very very high (wondering where the redline will be on the v10) and the old NSX handles beautifuly, this will be a taugh competition, the GTR is aimed at different buyers, just my opinion...

Damienr8
January 10th, 2007, 21:50
if the gods are on our side and a dsg debuts with the V10 god help all of the above AND the F430 and the "re"-updated gallardo ( :rolleyes: )

Yea im thinking that they will be fitting the DSG with the R8. But if for some reason they can engineer a 6-speed manny with a high revving V10, that would be nice. And yea, ferrari watch out. like you said updated gallardo :eye:

Leadfoot
January 10th, 2007, 22:03
The R8 will rule all of the above because of the quality of the Brand. Audi is moving ahead of BMW as Europe's top main-stream sportscar manufacturer and with the R8 will be battling Porsche and Ferrari for the top spot. Honda's last NSX was amazing for two reasons, it's ability and it's lack of sales, the Lexus will be amazing with it's total lack of understand what makes a great sportscar, it will no doubt be very refined with no soul.

The one to watch will be the GTR, it's will tick all of the boxes, looks, feel, entertainment, grip, power and acceleration, the only one that might be out of it's reach is a really good top speed, it's shape just doesn't look that aerodynamic. But who cares when the rest will be so good. Even if it does beat the R8 in a roadtest it will be the Audi that will capture your hearts.

KiwiRS4
January 10th, 2007, 22:41
If you want a Japper thats fine, but to me it would be a cold day in hell before I own a japper over an Audi.

Just my two cents worth.

Ned

Damienr8
January 10th, 2007, 22:44
"the Lexus will be amazing with it's total lack of understand what makes a great sportscar, it will no doubt be very refined with no soul."

:applause: LOL nice one Leadfoot!

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 06:12
I have no idea why everyone is already proclaiming an R8 victory. The R8 is always going to be below the gallardo. The gallardo is slightly slower than the 911 turbo with the v10 so why would the r8 close that gap with it? I don't see any reason for the v10 r8 to be any faster than the gallardo, DSG being the main advantage the R8 could have.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 06:15
Yea im thinking that they will be fitting the DSG with the R8. But if for some reason they can engineer a 6-speed manny with a high revving V10, that would be nice. And yea, ferrari watch out. like you said updated gallardo :eye:
What exactly does ferrari have to fear? Lambo needs to launch a more powerful gallardo to catch up to the current 430 and by that time ferrari will launch a challenge stradale version of the 430 that will again put them well ahead of the gallardo in performance.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 06:19
The R8 will rule all of the above because of the quality of the Brand. Audi is moving ahead of BMW as Europe's top main-stream sportscar manufacturer and with the R8 will be battling Porsche and Ferrari for the top spot. Honda's last NSX was amazing for two reasons, it's ability and it's lack of sales, the Lexus will be amazing with it's total lack of understand what makes a great sportscar, it will no doubt be very refined with no soul.

The one to watch will be the GTR, it's will tick all of the boxes, looks, feel, entertainment, grip, power and acceleration, the only one that might be out of it's reach is a really good top speed, it's shape just doesn't look that aerodynamic. But who cares when the rest will be so good. Even if it does beat the R8 in a roadtest it will be the Audi that will capture your hearts.
Uh, one step at a time, the car isn't even here yet. And another thing, one limited production car doesn't make you the top manufacturer. Audi has a long way to go to catch BMW. The S6 barely matches up with a 550i. The 335i is spanking S4's. The new M3 is coming to lay the smack down on the RS4. Not to mention that BMW's will always be the purer driving car with RWD, less weight, and having weight in the right spot to begin with. You are getting way ahead of yourself, and supposedly BMW is at work on a mid engine car using a 5.5 liter of the M5 V10 which is the best V10 out (short of carrera GT.)

The R8 is the first audi to not have all it's damn weight in the front.

Damienr8
January 11th, 2007, 07:12
What exactly does ferrari have to fear? Lambo needs to launch a more powerful gallardo to catch up to the current 430 and by that time ferrari will launch a challenge stradale version of the 430 that will again put them well ahead of the gallardo in performance.

Im just making a prediction, relax dude. Who knows, maybe the updated gallardo might gain some horse and shed some weight. At least that is what i am hoping for.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 07:19
Im just making a prediction, relax dude. Who knows, maybe the updated gallardo might gain some horse and shed some weight. At least that is what i am hoping for.

I'm not sure how my tone came across but I wasn't trying to jump all over you or anything. I was just bringing the thread back into reality.

Finalmix
January 11th, 2007, 09:06
Uh, one step at a time, the car isn't even here yet. And another thing, one limited production car doesn't make you the top manufacturer. Audi has a long way to go to catch BMW. The S6 barely matches up with a 550i. The 335i is spanking S4's. The new M3 is coming to lay the smack down on the RS4. Not to mention that BMW's will always be the purer driving car with RWD, less weight, and having weight in the right spot to begin with. You are getting way ahead of yourself, and supposedly BMW is at work on a mid engine car using a 5.5 liter of the M5 V10 which is the best V10 out (short of carrera GT.)

The R8 is the first audi to not have all it's damn weight in the front.

That info may be true, but BMWs have always been a bandwagon brand to me where as Audi has that extra touch. I rather pull up in a MTM modded RS4 than a 2008 M3 anyday. (downsyndrome looking tail lamps, lol...)

Leadfoot
January 11th, 2007, 10:25
Uh, one step at a time, the car isn't even here yet. And another thing, one limited production car doesn't make you the top manufacturer. Audi has a long way to go to catch BMW. The S6 barely matches up with a 550i. The 335i is spanking S4's. The new M3 is coming to lay the smack down on the RS4. Not to mention that BMW's will always be the purer driving car with RWD, less weight, and having weight in the right spot to begin with. You are getting way ahead of yourself, and supposedly BMW is at work on a mid engine car using a 5.5 liter of the M5 V10 which is the best V10 out (short of carrera GT.)

The R8 is the first audi to not have all it's damn weight in the front.

Oh, please. The S6 as already won in two tests against the M5 never mind the 550i in Germany, ok it might not be as quick but if that's your only agrument then give up. The 335i against the S4 that will be interesting but it has beat the old M3 so if the 335i has the better of the S4 then too the M3. We will have to see if the new one can lay the smack down on the RS4 as you put it, but that will be short lived as the S5 will be out soon.

To say the rwd is the purer driving experience, in what sport? Anytime awd has entered a form of motorsport it has destroyed the competition and been banned, that is apart from rallying which, oh yes is done on roads & forests. Your being suckered into BMW ads if you think 50/50 weight is the holy grail of what makes the pure driving experience, just ask Porsche about that.

tazsura
January 11th, 2007, 11:02
What exactly does ferrari have to fear? Lambo needs to launch a more powerful gallardo to catch up to the current 430 and by that time ferrari will launch a challenge stradale version of the 430 that will again put them well ahead of the gallardo in performance.

The current Gallardo gives a good fight to the F430 and is by no means out gunned enough to say it is an easy victory to the Fezza, and the uprated Lambo will no doubt move the game on further. As for a riposte to the Challenge Stradale, there has long been talk of an SV version of the Gallardo, and i'm sure that this would more than take the fight to the F430CS with less weight, more power and RWD. Just my two cents.

Taz

RXBG
January 11th, 2007, 14:59
What exactly does ferrari have to fear? Lambo needs to launch a more powerful gallardo to catch up to the current 430 and by that time ferrari will launch a challenge stradale version of the 430 that will again put them well ahead of the gallardo in performance.

and it is a hardcore, non daily drive version of the basic car. same will be true of the gallardo sv. one cannot compare these cars to the basic versions they came from. a race version of the R8 could also be produced and that would be a fair comparison with the above cars.

the bottom line is that the gallardo/R8 will soon face an ID crisis. and with porsche's say i would highly doubt that lambo will remain an audi owned company. lambo, believe it or not, is in danger of being sold........

i do not know how audi plans to distinguish the V10 R8 from the gallardo. i do not suspect the gallardo will produce more than 550 hp in final form (the last expected updated before an all new model that is at least 3 years away b/c lambo R&D is now operating on it's own profits and sans audi funding). only diff between the two will be the more daily livability/comfort of the R8. (while achieving 9/10ths of the performance at a 50K minimum savings- which could buy you a heffner kit that will kill just about anything this side of a zonda)

and finally, the V10 in the R8 is expected to be a high rev NA engine... iow- an RS4engine with two more cylinders. and not requiring a computer to release 100 more hp from it. that is scary brilliant stuff....and imo shall be a much superior engine to the one in the M5 and M6......

Cale24
January 11th, 2007, 14:59
@ Tazsura :

Exactly. There seems to be a myth that the F430 is much faster, when in fact the lastest Gallardo SE is in fact quicker in a straight line, as well as around numerous race tracks (eg.EVO handling circuit). And the 997 GT3/ GT3 RS is faster than both on any track.

Leadfoot
January 11th, 2007, 15:07
@ Tazsura :

Exactly. There seems to be a myth that the F430 is much faster, when in fact the lastest Gallardo SE is in fact quicker in a straight line, as well as around numerous race tracks (eg.EVO handling circuit). And the 997 GT3/ GT3 RS is faster than both on any track.

Well you do have to remember that sticky is believing BMW's Bull about 50/50 weight and rwd so why wouldn't he believe the hype about the Ferrari.:boring:

Cale24
January 11th, 2007, 15:11
Uh, one step at a time, the car isn't even here yet. And another thing, one limited production car doesn't make you the top manufacturer. Audi has a long way to go to catch BMW. The S6 barely matches up with a 550i. The 335i is spanking S4's. The new M3 is coming to lay the smack down on the RS4. Not to mention that BMW's will always be the purer driving car with RWD, less weight, and having weight in the right spot to begin with. You are getting way ahead of yourself, and supposedly BMW is at work on a mid engine car using a 5.5 liter of the M5 V10 which is the best V10 out (short of carrera GT.)

The R8 is the first audi to not have all it's damn weight in the front.


The car isnt even here yet, yes, and neither is this 'supposed' V10 BMW supercar, which is even further from reality and yet you discuss it? As for Audi having a long way to go to 'match' BMW, thats subjectivity if ever. Why does a B6 S4 lap the Top Gear race track faster than an E46 M3? Why does the latest RS4 beat an E60 M5 and M3 CSL(E46) while also getting stellar reviews, even from former BMW owners? The two companies both make great cars and will always one-up each other with a new model. The new E90 M3 4 door is the accurate match for the B7 RS4- lets see who wins (and the latter looks, from what I have seen of the M3, ten trillion times better). The S5/ RS5 will take care of the new M3 coupe, you can count on it. Concerning RWD vs Quattro, both have advatages of their own. And in case you didn't know, BMW xi/ xd models have their weight in the same place as an Audi, thanks to four wheel drive requirements. Plus, the R8 will thump an M6 anywhere, I'd bet my life on it.
Long way to go? Before you know it, BMW will have a long way to go to catch up.

Damienr8
January 11th, 2007, 16:23
Oh, please. The S6 as already won in two tests against the M5 never mind the 550i in Germany, ok it might not be as quick but if that's your only agrument then give up. The 335i against the S4 that will be interesting but it has beat the old M3 so if the 335i has the better of the S4 then too the M3. We will have to see if the new one can lay the smack down on the RS4 as you put it, but that will be short lived as the S5 will be out soon.

To say the rwd is the purer driving experience, in what sport? Anytime awd has entered a form of motorsport it has destroyed the competition and been banned, that is apart from rallying which, oh yes is done on roads & forests. Your being suckered into BMW ads if you think 50/50 weight is the holy grail of what makes the pure driving experience, just ask Porsche about that.

Nice reply Leadfood, I would have came up with something like this but I was fairly busy finishing up some work. And yes, 50/50 weight distribution is not the holy grail of what makes a driving experience pure. Its a culmination of more than just that one factor. Ahh, back to work. *Whip crack*

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 18:07
That info may be true, but BMWs have always been a bandwagon brand to me where as Audi has that extra touch. I rather pull up in a MTM modded RS4 than a 2008 M3 anyday. (downsyndrome looking tail lamps, lol...)
True of course, if you want exclusivity audi has that over BMW to an extent. There are plusses and minuses to this, aftermarket, places to service, etc.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 18:13
Oh, please. The S6 as already won in two tests against the M5 never mind the 550i in Germany, ok it might not be as quick but if that's your only agrument then give up. The 335i against the S4 that will be interesting but it has beat the old M3 so if the 335i has the better of the S4 then too the M3. We will have to see if the new one can lay the smack down on the RS4 as you put it, but that will be short lived as the S5 will be out soon.

To say the rwd is the purer driving experience, in what sport? Anytime awd has entered a form of motorsport it has destroyed the competition and been banned, that is apart from rallying which, oh yes is done on roads & forests. Your being suckered into BMW ads if you think 50/50 weight is the holy grail of what makes the pure driving experience, just ask Porsche about that.
Audi got banned in their rally racing. Winning a race has nothing to do with how the car feels when YOU drive it. I really don't think you are taking your audi and entering it in a race everytime you hit the road. It should be very simple to understand that RWD is lighter, allows more power to the wheels, and allows easy power on correction.

Porsche puts their motors in the back, so don't know how you are using this to bolster your argument. Out of manufacturers that put their motor in the front, BMW is the most consistent at keeping a perfect weight distribution. One thing we can agree on, Audi's understeer compared to BMW's due to the weight in the front.

Did you read the tests where the S6 won? What pushed the S6 over? It certainly wasn't the performance as the M5 is in a different league. It was the price, when that is taken out of the equation, the S6 matches up better with a 550i and e550 than an M5 or E63. Those cars both are cheaper and offer up the same performance. You are insane if you think the S6 even holds a candle to the M5 or E63, the performance difference is worlds apart, and perfomance is what the M5 and E63 are about.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 18:16
The current Gallardo gives a good fight to the F430 and is by no means out gunned enough to say it is an easy victory to the Fezza, and the uprated Lambo will no doubt move the game on further. As for a riposte to the Challenge Stradale, there has long been talk of an SV version of the Gallardo, and i'm sure that this would more than take the fight to the F430CS with less weight, more power and RWD. Just my two cents.

Taz
As it stands today, ferrari has the clear advantage. There was talk of an SV gallardo, nothing materialized. We know the challenge stradale of the 430 is coming for sure, that is the difference. The gallardo with 520 hp and shorter gearing (SE) still trails very far behind and is bloated in comparison. The challenge stradale will be even lighter, and if it is anything like the last one, the best driving experience short of the supercars.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 18:22
and it is a hardcore, non daily drive version of the basic car. same will be true of the gallardo sv. one cannot compare these cars to the basic versions they came from. a race version of the R8 could also be produced and that would be a fair comparison with the above cars.

the bottom line is that the gallardo/R8 will soon face an ID crisis. and with porsche's say i would highly doubt that lambo will remain an audi owned company. lambo, believe it or not, is in danger of being sold........

i do not know how audi plans to distinguish the V10 R8 from the gallardo. i do not suspect the gallardo will produce more than 550 hp in final form (the last expected updated before an all new model that is at least 3 years away b/c lambo R&D is now operating on it's own profits and sans audi funding). only diff between the two will be the more daily livability/comfort of the R8. (while achieving 9/10ths of the performance at a 50K minimum savings- which could buy you a heffner kit that will kill just about anything this side of a zonda)

and finally, the V10 in the R8 is expected to be a high rev NA engine... iow- an RS4engine with two more cylinders. and not requiring a computer to release 100 more hp from it. that is scary brilliant stuff....and imo shall be a much superior engine to the one in the M5 and M6......
Lambo is in danger of being sold? According to who? At least provide a source don't just pull things out of thin air.

The heffner kit? It is over 50,000 dollars! No one is going to buy that. It requires new internals, doesn't work correctly with e-gear, and requires months of labor. To remove it later would be impossible. Not only that, it takes the car to low 11's at 128. Nothing short of a zonda will touch it? Sorry, 997 turbo's are surpassing that with BOLT ON'S, not even going to mention the Z06.

Isn't the motor in the gallardo a high rev NA 10? Why would the R8 get a better v10 than the gallardo which is what it would take to match up to BMW's v10?

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 18:23
@ Tazsura :

Exactly. There seems to be a myth that the F430 is much faster, when in fact the lastest Gallardo SE is in fact quicker in a straight line, as well as around numerous race tracks (eg.EVO handling circuit). And the 997 GT3/ GT3 RS is faster than both on any track.
What? M5's are matching up with the SE's, what are you talking about? The SE can't catch the F430 it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 18:25
Well you do have to remember that sticky is believing BMW's Bull about 50/50 weight and rwd so why wouldn't he believe the hype about the Ferrari.:boring:
Maybe you should do your research and come back to the discussion when you are well enough informed to carry it on? You don't need to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 18:31
The car isnt even here yet, yes, and neither is this 'supposed' V10 BMW supercar, which is even further from reality and yet you discuss it? As for Audi having a long way to go to 'match' BMW, thats subjectivity if ever. Why does a B6 S4 lap the Top Gear race track faster than an E46 M3? Why does the latest RS4 beat an E60 M5 and M3 CSL(E46) while also getting stellar reviews, even from former BMW owners? The two companies both make great cars and will always one-up each other with a new model. The new E90 M3 4 door is the accurate match for the B7 RS4- lets see who wins (and the latter looks, from what I have seen of the M3, ten trillion times better). The S5/ RS5 will take care of the new M3 coupe, you can count on it. Concerning RWD vs Quattro, both have advatages of their own. And in case you didn't know, BMW xi/ xd models have their weight in the same place as an Audi, thanks to four wheel drive requirements. Plus, the R8 will thump an M6 anywhere, I'd bet my life on it.
Long way to go? Before you know it, BMW will have a long way to go to catch up.
Why does the S4 lap the top gear test track faster? BECAUSE THAT TRACK IS ALWAYS WET. Hello, they are in England. I had an e46 m3, S4's don't come close. The B6 S4 weighs more, puts out less power to the wheels, and has worse weight distribution. What, the car defy's the laws of physics?

I mentioned BMW's proposed car in response to a post where the person was mentioning a proposed vehicle as well. Reading comprehension...

The RS4 is a stellar car, I never said it wasn't. All audi's are stellar cars, I think you are missing my point. The RS4 is boat loads of fun to drive, but the M5 is much faster. Around a track, the RS4 has a good chance to win depending on the track (tighter advantage audi, longer straights, M5.) As far as E90 M3 vs. B7 RS4 the smart mans money is on the M3 as if the battle is anything like the B6 S4 vs. E46 M3 it is an easy BMW victory. 7 speed SMG plus v8 version of the M5 v10? Bye, bye RS4.

The R8 will trump the M6 in all aspects? I will buy you a drink if this is the case as I am on the list for the R8 and would love nothing more. It isn't going to beat the M6 in a straight line race or on the top end, come on, it would have to beat the gallardo to do so. Around a track of course it will win, this is a given it weighs much less and has the weight where it should be.

Cale24
January 11th, 2007, 19:47
What? M5's are matching up with the SE's, what are you talking about? The SE can't catch the F430 it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan.


I assume you are referring to the rolling start video's posted on the M5board? Granted, once both cars are rolling, in a straight line the Gallardo pulled barely a car length on the M5. This may have to do with 4-wheel drive bogging the car down a bit, but nevermind that. Off the top of my head, an EVO magazine comparison pitted the 'unstoppable' E60 M5 against a Gallardo (non-SE) sometime last year, and the speed and dynamic superiority of the Lambo became starkly clear. The M5 was fighting its weight, but the in-depth feature revealed the Gallardo to be miles faster, and easier to drive at speed along winding roads. Only in the most ideal conditions (M5board being IT) will that sedan come remotely close. In a recent Top Gear shoot-out between the F430 and Gallardo spiders, the lambo won, and was reportedly the quicker of the two across varying conditions. In some motoring video clips on my computer, I've seen the F430 outpaced aswell. I like Ferraris' too, but their power-to-weight ratios have never translated into expected pace (look at an F355 for example). I don't know why.

And by the way, the RS4 is faster than an M5 at Hockenheim, Nurburgring, Top Gear track and EVO handling circuit. Don't believe the hype mate.


EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzisa6wcMNU The B6 S4 beat the E46 M3 on a bone dry track. Is the M3 more fun, yes, but even against logic (the weaknesses the S4 has compared to M3 you pointed out) and odds, the S4 makes the best of Quattro- the best Ad there is- beating a BMW M3 in a comparison that was probably not a primary concern during S4 development. And this S4 doesn't even have the latest 40/ 60 torque split!

Damienr8
January 11th, 2007, 20:25
I assume you are referring to the rolling start video's posted on the M5board? Granted, once both cars are rolling, in a straight line the Gallardo pulled barely a car length on the M5. This may have to do with 4-wheel drive bogging the car down a bit, but nevermind that. Off the top of my head, an EVO magazine comparison pitted the 'unstoppable' E60 M5 against a Gallardo (non-SE) sometime last year, and the speed and dynamic superiority of the Lambo became starkly clear. The M5 was fighting its weight, but the in-depth feature revealed the Gallardo to be miles faster, and easier to drive at speed along winding roads. Only in the most ideal conditions (M5board being IT) will that sedan come remotely close. In a recent Top Gear shoot-out between the F430 and Gallardo spiders, the lambo won, and was reportedly the quicker of the two across varying conditions. In some motoring video clips on my computer, I've seen the F430 outpaced aswell. I like Ferraris' too, but their power-to-weight ratios have never translated into expected pace (look at an F355 for example). I don't know why.

And by the way, the RS4 is faster than an M5 at Hockenheim, Nurburgring, Top Gear track and EVO handling circuit. Don't believe the hype mate.

Cale I agree with you on a number of points. Sticky I also agree with you on a number of points.

Sticky, what i do not agree with you on are the distances you place between cars. For instance, "The SE can't catch the F430" and "it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan." This information does not hold truth in my book because I have seen, heard, read about numerous occasions where (in this case) the Gallardo "wins" against either the M5 or the F430 on a performance standpoint. It dosen't matter how bloated the Gallardo is, all aspects of a car's engineering that come into play here. Just look at what the "fat ass" RS4 is doing against other cars.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 20:45
Cale I agree with you on a number of points. Sticky I also agree with you on a number of points.

Sticky, what i do not agree with you on are the distances you place between cars. For instance, "The SE can't catch the F430" and "it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan." This information does not hold truth in my book because I have seen, heard, read about numerous occasions where (in this case) the Gallardo "wins" against either the M5 or the F430 on a performance standpoint. It dosen't matter how bloated the Gallardo is, all aspects of a car's engineering that come into play here. Just look at what the "fat ass" RS4 is doing against other cars.
The gallardo is only bloated in comparison to the F430. It isn't a pig, but what isn't heavy in comparison to an F430 or Z06?

I have heard stories from both sides buy I base my opinion on this: My friend's M5 consistently beating my buddies 04 gallardo (yes, it is not the SE.) A report of an SE owner geating beat by an M5, selling his SE and getting a manual M5. The dyno numbers, where the gallardo can't crack 400 wheel and the M5's putting out a good deal more at 420-440 whp depending on the dyno. Either way, the M5 v10 is more impressive and is obviously getting more power to the ground as it is much heavier and the gallardo can't beat the car, straight line of course.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 20:47
I assume you are referring to the rolling start video's posted on the M5board? Granted, once both cars are rolling, in a straight line the Gallardo pulled barely a car length on the M5. This may have to do with 4-wheel drive bogging the car down a bit, but nevermind that. Off the top of my head, an EVO magazine comparison pitted the 'unstoppable' E60 M5 against a Gallardo (non-SE) sometime last year, and the speed and dynamic superiority of the Lambo became starkly clear. The M5 was fighting its weight, but the in-depth feature revealed the Gallardo to be miles faster, and easier to drive at speed along winding roads. Only in the most ideal conditions (M5board being IT) will that sedan come remotely close. In a recent Top Gear shoot-out between the F430 and Gallardo spiders, the lambo won, and was reportedly the quicker of the two across varying conditions. In some motoring video clips on my computer, I've seen the F430 outpaced aswell. I like Ferraris' too, but their power-to-weight ratios have never translated into expected pace (look at an F355 for example). I don't know why.

And by the way, the RS4 is faster than an M5 at Hockenheim, Nurburgring, Top Gear track and EVO handling circuit. Don't believe the hype mate.


EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzisa6wcMNU The B6 S4 beat the E46 M3 on a bone dry track. Is the M3 more fun, yes, but even against logic (the weaknesses the S4 has compared to M3 you pointed out) and odds, the S4 makes the best of Quattro- the best Ad there is- beating a BMW M3 in a comparison that was probably not a primary concern during S4 development. And this S4 doesn't even have the latest 40/ 60 torque split!
I take the M5 board videos with a grain of salt. They don't just show the M5 winning, they show it trouncing many fast cars. They also go from a roll, which obviously favors the M5.

I don't know how we turned this into M5 vs. Gallardo but the reason they are mentioned so often is that they share the V10's. The gallardo will always beat it around a track, as it should. The straight line aspect is interesting as the gallardo really should be beating this car around a track, off the line, top end, and upside down for all intents and purposes.

The main point from all of this is if the gallardo can't beat the M5 or M6 what makes everyone think the R8 is going to? Why does everyone think the R8 V10 will fare better than the gallardo has?

Damienr8
January 11th, 2007, 21:27
I take the M5 board videos with a grain of salt. They don't just show the M5 winning, they show it trouncing many fast cars. They also go from a roll, which obviously favors the M5.

I don't know how we turned this into M5 vs. Gallardo but the reason they are mentioned so often is that they share the V10's. The gallardo will always beat it around a track, as it should. The straight line aspect is interesting as the gallardo really should be beating this car around a track, off the line, top end, and upside down for all intents and purposes.

The main point from all of this is if the gallardo can't beat the M5 or M6 what makes everyone think the R8 is going to? Why does everyone think the R8 V10 will fare better than the gallardo has?


I believe that in a straight line, the M5 and M6 can out accelerate (by a small margin) the Gallardo at higher speeds. Even with the SE's more HP and better gearing, the M5/6 is a bit faster. Around a track like you said sticky, is a different story. Its sad to say that this can happen, but BMW's engineering have done wonders.

I personally do not think the R8 will trounce the M5/6 in a straight line, but I do believe around the track it will beat the M's. I think it has alot to do with the R8's engineering that came as a suprise. I garauntee once magazine gets hold of the car you will see 4 - 4.2 second 60 launches and speeds progressing past its limits. I can only imagine what the V10 R8 will do....

But then again, there is the fact that Lambo is owned by audi and this cannot happen. But this happening in the real world. What in your opinion is this due to?

Sorry to bring this off topic, i aologize.

sticky
January 11th, 2007, 22:00
I believe that in a straight line, the M5 and M6 can out accelerate (by a small margin) the Gallardo at higher speeds. Even with the SE's more HP and better gearing, the M5/6 is a bit faster. Around a track like you said sticky, is a different story. Its sad to say that this can happen, but BMW's engineering have done wonders.

I personally do not think the R8 will trounce the M5/6 in a straight line, but I do believe around the track it will beat the M's. I think it has alot to do with the R8's engineering that came as a suprise. I garauntee once magazine gets hold of the car you will see 4 - 4.2 second 60 launches and speeds progressing past its limits. I can only imagine what the V10 R8 will do....

But then again, there is the fact that Lambo is owned by audi and this cannot happen. But this happening in the real world. What in your opinion is this due to?

Sorry to bring this off topic, i aologize.
I don't think you really brought this off topic, we are still discussing the competition and I probably brough it off topic, but whatever :)

I think 0-60 won't tell the whole story. The R8 should be able to do a better 0-60 than the M cars due to the AWD. 0-60 is traction limited in rwd cars with over 500 hp.

I think if audi wants to really take it to the competition the V8 R8 needs to be very close to the V10 gallardo. Audi can't be worrying about stepping on the gallardo's toes to make the most of this vehicle. I also think whatever motor goes in the RS6 is the one that should go in the R8.

Damienr8
January 11th, 2007, 22:07
I don't think you really brought this off topic, we are still discussing the competition and I probably brough it off topic, but whatever :)

I think 0-60 won't tell the whole story. The R8 should be able to do a better 0-60 than the M cars due to the AWD. 0-60 is traction limited in rwd cars with over 500 hp.

I think if audi wants to really take it to the competition the V8 R8 needs to be very close to the V10 gallardo. Audi can't be worrying about stepping on the gallardo's toes to make the most of this vehicle. I also think whatever motor goes in the RS6 is the one that should go in the R8.

I am sure the R8 will do wonders with handling, grip, etc. as opposed to 0-60 times, no doubt about it. But as sad as it is, the case is that Audi IS worried about the R8 stepping on the Gallardo.

RXBG
January 11th, 2007, 22:21
I don't think you really brought this off topic, we are still discussing the competition and I probably brough it off topic, but whatever :)

I think 0-60 won't tell the whole story. The R8 should be able to do a better 0-60 than the M cars due to the AWD. 0-60 is traction limited in rwd cars with over 500 hp.

I think if audi wants to really take it to the competition the V8 R8 needs to be very close to the V10 gallardo. Audi can't be worrying about stepping on the gallardo's toes to make the most of this vehicle. I also think whatever motor goes in the RS6 is the one that should go in the R8.

one doesn't need to actually quote a mag to post an opinion. facts are facts only if they are explicitly stated to be such.

i will give you facts (that i cannot quote from audi AG b/c i'd sell out people i cannot):

1. R8 V10 will not be the same V10 as in the RS6 V10 at least not "exactly"
2. the V8 R8 is much faster than people think........

Leadfoot
January 11th, 2007, 23:20
Audi got banned in their rally racing. Winning a race has nothing to do with how the car feels when YOU drive it. I really don't think you are taking your audi and entering it in a race everytime you hit the road. It should be very simple to understand that RWD is lighter, allows more power to the wheels, and allows easy power on correction.

Porsche puts their motors in the back, so don't know how you are using this to bolster your argument. Out of manufacturers that put their motor in the front, BMW is the most consistent at keeping a perfect weight distribution. One thing we can agree on, Audi's understeer compared to BMW's due to the weight in the front.

Did you read the tests where the S6 won? What pushed the S6 over? It certainly wasn't the performance as the M5 is in a different league. It was the price, when that is taken out of the equation, the S6 matches up better with a 550i and e550 than an M5 or E63. Those cars both are cheaper and offer up the same performance. You are insane if you think the S6 even holds a candle to the M5 or E63, the performance difference is worlds apart, and performance is what the M5 and E63 are about.

Let me answer each point made by you as best I can.

Firstly agreed we don't rally our cars every time we take them on the road, but the point was more that awd is the choice of all leading manufacturers so proves it advantage over rwd especially on road use and in all weather conditions. As for easier power on corrections, hello, if you have ever watched the FifthGear video of the M3 vs RS4 you will see the M3 produced a 38degree slid angle where as the RS4 recovered from a 90degree slid angle, now which is the easier to power on correct.:dig:

Secondly Porsche reference was used to prove that you don't need 50/50 weight balance to produce a perfect driving experience. As for your argument that BMWs understeer less than Audis do because of this perfect balance you talk about. Audi engineer understeer in for safety, something that BMW are starting to do, fwd or awd don't have to understeer because of this weight balance, the Integra Type-R doesn't and neither does the EVOs, it is Audi's choice to have understeer something I think most people are thankful of.

Thirdly the S6 vs M5 debate. As I have already said the S6 can't match the M5 on out right performance but on a recent test around a test track it all but matched the M5 and all this with an extra 150kgs and 80 less horsepower. If you put the test to a twisty road where there is no run off areas or gravel traps then yes I do think the S6 will be more than a match for the M5. You keep forgetting that most of the people who buy this cars aren't Arton Senna etc, they are normal and this is where the extra safety and confidence of awd pay big time and no 50/50 weight balance, rwd or all the might of your Ultimate Driving Machine will ever beat that.:bye2:

And lastly you say that the S6 shouldn't be in the same leagues of the M5 or E63amg, well you are back to your pub figures argument, mines quicker than yours. If that's your only defense then you can keep your M5 etc and good luck to you, but no thanks I prefer quality not quantity.

Sticky, I don't know where all this argumentative side has come from but at last count I think you has got the back up on about 6 people and that's the ones that are replying to you. Take some QuietLife and watch some fish, you really need to take it easy.:thumb:

sticky
January 12th, 2007, 00:16
Let me answer each point made by you as best I can.

Firstly agreed we don't rally our cars every time we take them on the road, but the point was more that awd is the choice of all leading manufacturers so proves it advantage over rwd especially on road use and in all weather conditions. As for easier power on corrections, hello, if you have ever watched the FifthGear video of the M3 vs RS4 you will see the M3 produced a 38degree slid angle where as the RS4 recovered from a 90degree slid angle, now which is the easier to power on correct.:dig:

Secondly Porsche reference was used to prove that you don't need 50/50 weight balance to produce a perfect driving experience. As for your argument that BMWs understeer less than Audis do because of this perfect balance you talk about. Audi engineer understeer in for safety, something that BMW are starting to do, fwd or awd don't have to understeer because of this weight balance, the Integra Type-R doesn't and neither does the EVOs, it is Audi's choice to have understeer something I think most people are thankful of.

Thirdly the S6 vs M5 debate. As I have already said the S6 can't match the M5 on out right performance but on a recent test around a test track it all but matched the M5 and all this with an extra 150kgs and 80 less horsepower. If you put the test to a twisty road where there is no run off areas or gravel traps then yes I do think the S6 will be more than a match for the M5. You keep forgetting that most of the people who buy this cars aren't Arton Senna etc, they are normal and this is where the extra safety and confidence of awd pay big time and no 50/50 weight balance, rwd or all the might of your Ultimate Driving Machine will ever beat that.:bye2:

And lastly you say that the S6 shouldn't be in the same leagues of the M5 or E63amg, well you are back to your pub figures argument, mines quicker than yours. If that's your only defense then you can keep your M5 etc and good luck to you, but no thanks I prefer quality not quantity.

Sticky, I don't know where all this argumentative side has come from but at last count I think you has got the back up on about 6 people and that's the ones that are replying to you. Take some QuietLife and watch some fish, you really need to take it easy.:thumb:
I like a good discusison I'm not going to run over to your home and beat you with your keyboard.

I'll address each one of your points now:

1. The RS4 recovered from a larger slide, it wasn't as CONTROLLABLE when sliding. He basically pitched the car sideways, he would not be able to sustain a longer drift or correct with power. Yes, traction allows recovery but the 4WD is not friendly for sideways shenanigans or power on oversteer.

2. Audi traditionally has had their weight up front. They still do, the R8 is the first car to break this mold. Audi's understeer isn't just there for safety, it is how physics apply when the weight is on the front wheels. BMW's understeer as well, just as a much higher limit allowing for the most part a higher cornering limit. Every major auto manufacturer has a level of understeer dialed in for safety. With electronic nannies you have to turn them off to really get yourself into trouble, with which how good these systems are getting I don't see a reason to turn the stability control off to gain a 1/10 of a second if you are a pro driver around a circuit. The integra type R does understeer, but very minimally and at the limit as it is superbly balanced. All FWD's do to an extent, how wouldn't they?

3. One thing we can agree on is the performance difference, as it is can't really be disputed. These are performance cars, if you just want the comfort and safety, a standard A6 will do nicely. Styling and all the others are subjective and the S6 is a beauty inside and out. I have never owned an AWD cars (my SUV's aside of course) and don't see any reason to. Perhaps I am in the minority saying I would prefer a lighter, RWD R8. Where I live it rarely rains and I can have summer tires on all year. From a purely performance standpoint, the M5 stands above. I am all for the RS6 to come, and come quickly, as the S6 really doesn't have the power to take the crown. I am patiently waiting for Audi to respond to the 63's and M5's and I am sure they will.

sticky
January 12th, 2007, 00:21
one doesn't need to actually quote a mag to post an opinion. facts are facts only if they are explicitly stated to be such.

i will give you facts (that i cannot quote from audi AG b/c i'd sell out people i cannot):

1. R8 V10 will not be the same V10 as in the RS6 V10 at least not "exactly"
2. the V8 R8 is much faster than people think........
Weren't you the one who was also saying it was going to weight much less than it does?

I don't doubt that it won't be same motor as the RS6. I am saying I wish it was.

Damienr8
January 12th, 2007, 00:25
Weren't you the one who was also saying it was going to weight much less than it does?

I don't doubt that it won't be same motor as the RS6. I am saying I wish it was.

I am glad to see that everyone kept themselves together at the outskirts of this discussion. Now back to the topic :trash:

"For 2009 MY- it will be a year of V10 monsters.
the NSX
the LF-A
and the V6 or V8 GTR"

Not counting the GTR (As it will most likely not contain a V10) do you all think that Lexus and Acura will put V10 in their initial production models or would they start off with V8's and then offer a V10 model in the future.

You opinions on this.

Lateknight
January 12th, 2007, 01:07
Can we have smilies depicted with handbags. I think we could have used some back there. :D

Things can get a bit emotive when talking about someones pride and joy.

back on topic - thanks Damienr8

2009: the year of the V10: :applause: about time

Honda NSX being the most anticipated of that bunch (more out of curiosity than anything else)

IMO there is nothing to beat the sound of a 'fruity' V10 :bow:

Its gonna be an awsome year.
Possibly a last hurrah for these types of car before the greenies/global warming/oil shortages starts to bite. :vgrumpy:

p.s According to CAR mag the GTR will have a 4ltr v6 (a derivative of the current 350z engine) if thats true, and CAR mag are not exactly very good with their info, I cant see it being as bombproof as the outgoing RB26 motor.

RXBG
January 12th, 2007, 01:18
Weren't you the one who was also saying it was going to weight much less than it does?

I don't doubt that it won't be same motor as the RS6. I am saying I wish it was.

i stated only what my sources can tell me. re: weight i am sure i stated my opinion on various counts. further, weight and numbers are a very variable issue, as has been the case with the various weights of the gallardo, both from mags, the lambo website, and lambo press releases. there have been various threads on such topics.

i think you need to lighten up a bit, don't you? be a little more respectful and less hostile.

sticky
January 12th, 2007, 03:58
i stated only what my sources can tell me. re: weight i am sure i stated my opinion on various counts. further, weight and numbers are a very variable issue, as has been the case with the various weights of the gallardo, both from mags, the lambo website, and lambo press releases. there have been various threads on such topics.

i think you need to lighten up a bit, don't you? be a little more respectful and less hostile.
I think you are misinterpreting my tone but I will do my best to sugar coat things so that no one gets upset and gets hurt typing up a storm ;) Come on, we are all adults here.

I think everyone is here to discuss cars. I was just mentioning that the info you get isn't always right so the comments about the V8 being suprisingly fast I take with a grain of salt. I would love to see something that would back up this assertion.

Is the V8 going to be close the gallardo?

Cale24
January 12th, 2007, 04:10
Simply put, I reckon the R8 will lie between a Carrera S and a Gallardo in pace.

RXBG
January 12th, 2007, 04:53
Simply put, I reckon the R8 will lie between a Carrera S and a Gallardo in pace.

if memory serves me well......averaging out the 0-60 times the RS4 has tested in various mags leaves me with about 4.5 seconds. with quarter miles in the mid to upper 12s.

weighing about 500 lbs less and with a weight distribution more friendly to traction and acceleration times, i would suspect that the manual transmissioned variant should average at least 0.2-0.3 seconds quicker to 60. and low to mid 12s in the quarter mile.

tazsura
January 12th, 2007, 11:42
Last one from me on the 'off-topic' with-in this topic! I promise....:jlol:

I'm sorry, im sorry, but i just don't understand where this CLEAR Advantage reasoning the F430 has over the Gallardo comes from. Sticky, you keep using the term 'bloated'...in what context? Forgive me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the F430 have a kerb weight of 1450Kg and the Gallardo 1470Kg (ish)? Considering it has 2 more cylinders and 4WD...this is not bad at all. Yes the F430 does 'feel' lighter on its feet, but also much much less assured with its nervous rear end. Around a track the F430 has not been proved to be that much faster, and on everyday roads and day-to-day driving the Gallardo trumps it. It suffers minimnal understeer and is planted in all conditions. The only complaint coming from testers seems to be initial brake pedal feel.

As for 50/50 weight distribution...hmm. I agree Front engined RWD configuration is very good. But if 50/50 is the way forward, why does the Maser Quattroporte lap the EVO track faster than the M5 even though its Kerb weight is 1940Kg and it doesn't have the much-hyped SMG AND is down on power. ? Maybe the 46:54 distribution of the Maser is the way forward.....

The E90 M3 Vs B7 RS4 WON'T be, like you suggested, the B6 S4 Vs E46 M3 contest. The RS is completely different to the S4. The E90 M3 will be fantastic IMO. It don't really see how it can fail to be. I do however hope its V8 is like the M5 V10.....because then the V8 in the RS4 will already trump it in terms of sound...NO CONTEST. The BM V10 sounds horrid....and is no contest for the vocal delights of the Lambo V10 or the Porsche V10.:lovl: :music:

Straight line test may be the be-all in the US...but here (in the UK) when the roads get twisty and both driver ability and handling come into focus, the merits of a sure-footed, well resolved car come to the fore-front.

I'm done on this topic now.....:rotflmao:

:0: Taz:incar:

Leadfoot
January 12th, 2007, 11:53
sticky,

You make valid points as well.

The weight of the front axle is there but with any awd system that have the engine in the front will always have this problems and still called itself a practical/family car. Understeer is in all car agreed but to say that the Audi understeers first is not the case if it was then this would show up in lap times which it doesn't.

I couldn't agree more that the M3 can produce a long power slide than a RS4, my point was that the RS4 can be recovered from a greater slid proving it's advantage of awd.

And finally the M5, E63. Both are great cars and I personally love the looks of the M5 but I have always felt that Audi produce a better balance sportscar than either of them and the reasons for this is it's design makes it's power more accessible to more people especially there these cars were intended namely the road.

Lets put this debate to bed and agree to disagree.:thumb:

tazsura
January 12th, 2007, 11:55
Now, coming back to TOPIC!

Out of the playa's in the contest, I would go for the R8. It's the most complete package. No question.

The NSX, I hope, will be a worthy sucessor to the original. If it is it will be unbelievable. But the same problem remain...image. No matter how good the car is. I think it would sell better than the last one, maybe pinch a few of the GTR's following.

The GTR again falls into the trap. Should be great. Looks less 'Max Power'd' that the last one...but still not a classy enough design.

Both need to turn up the Interior design and quality wicks CONSIDERABLY to even hope to get near the R8.

Car nuts will love the NSX and GTR, but which car would you rather pull up outside a swanky restaurant in?

Taz

Cale24
January 12th, 2007, 13:01
Has anyone seen those 'Best Motoring' clips (japanese car program > shoot-outs with varied sportscars)?? The latest one has a Gallardo vs M6 vs 997 Turbo vs NSX-R. Around the track, the quickest car is the Gallardo, but the NSX amazingly manages to keep them all behind, Turbo second. I believe this is a modified car, despite what they claim- it's had seemingly IMPOSSIBLE wins in every sort of contest, even straight-line races, for so long. If anyone can enlighten me I'd appreciate it! If the car is legit, a new NSX would be awesome.

Leadfoot
January 12th, 2007, 14:30
Taz,

I know I got a little off topic, but felt I needed to make sticky understand where I was coming from.

Back to topic, the R8 only real rivals based on looks and quality are the 997, Gallardo, F430 and the Vantage. The Jap things are not up to the quality feel of the above no matter how good they reliability is.

The NSX and GTR will in my opinion be right up there with regards to performance and handling, but really they will appeal to a different class of people, the one that has grown up with the Play Station and X-Box, the R8 will appeal to people who has out grown such things and are more interested the feel and looks of things.

Cale24,

I have always thought the same about the 'Best Motoring' videos, the NSX especially seems to beat almost everything right upto twice the power. Some say that this 276hp limit the Jap companies set as their limit is untrue and the NSX and GTR make in the regions of 350~370hp, even the EVOs and Scooby makes a lot more than the 276hp limit.

Why have it when no one uses it?

tazsura
January 12th, 2007, 14:41
Leadie,

'Now, coming back to TOPIC!' - This wasn't intended for you...it was for me! Your reply to my post was too quick (!)and i didn't get my 2nd post in before yours. Sorry for any confusion buddy!:thumb:

And I know where your coming from too, hence my response to previous commets about the Gallardo, M5 et al. Some things just need to be said!:w:

Bang on with the REAL R8 rivals. They offer the complete package while offering subtle differences to one another. The F430 and Gallardo are obviously the more overtly sporting of the group, while the Vantage and 997 offer greater versatility. I can't wait to see how the R8 compares. I really do feel that this car is going to be much quicker than figures are suggesting. I know i keep going on about it..but the engine from the RS4 is just an absolute peach...and it is engine is perfect for the R8. Much the way the Roush designed V12 is the defining piece in the Mclaren F1, IMO the V8 in the R8 will be to.:jlol:

P.S...that 276BHP rule is a joke and should be scrapped...no way are the NSX et al producing ONLY 276BHP.

Taz:D

Damienr8
January 12th, 2007, 16:10
Hey what are your thoughts on Lexus entering into the fray? I am hoping lexus puts some ambition into the LF-A to set it apart from its competitors. There are so many new cars coming out in the next 2 years that fall into the "sports coupe", "sports sedan", etc. categories. I can't wait to see magazine comparisons!

tazsura
January 12th, 2007, 16:17
I don't hold high hopes for the LF-A. It 'looks' good (first time i've said that about a lexus...) but i would be really suprised if Lexus nail the sports car seen. Don't know of all the offerings in the US, but the SC430 was the closest thing to a sports car from Lexus here in the UK. It was crap. Wasn't a cruiser...wasn't a sports car. :vhmmm: Most people talked about it's Stereo, and that was it!:music:

Steering feel, vocal attributes, real-feel....all traits that have not been seen in ANY lexus before. :rolleyes:

On paper it looks good, I just doubt if they can relay this to the road. IMHO

Taz :incar:

sticky
January 13th, 2007, 00:53
Leadie,

'Now, coming back to TOPIC!' - This wasn't intended for you...it was for me! Your reply to my post was too quick (!)and i didn't get my 2nd post in before yours. Sorry for any confusion buddy!:thumb:

And I know where your coming from too, hence my response to previous commets about the Gallardo, M5 et al. Some things just need to be said!:w:

Bang on with the REAL R8 rivals. They offer the complete package while offering subtle differences to one another. The F430 and Gallardo are obviously the more overtly sporting of the group, while the Vantage and 997 offer greater versatility. I can't wait to see how the R8 compares. I really do feel that this car is going to be much quicker than figures are suggesting. I know i keep going on about it..but the engine from the RS4 is just an absolute peach...and it is engine is perfect for the R8. Much the way the Roush designed V12 is the defining piece in the Mclaren F1, IMO the V8 in the R8 will be to.:jlol:

P.S...that 276BHP rule is a joke and should be scrapped...no way are the NSX et al producing ONLY 276BHP.

Taz:D
The 276 agreement was scrapped, they no longer adhere to it.

Roush designed V12 for the Mclaren??? BMW ended up being the choice for the motor manufacturer for th McLaren F1 when Gordon Murray couldn't get Honda.

sticky
January 13th, 2007, 01:01
Last one from me on the 'off-topic' with-in this topic! I promise....:jlol:

I'm sorry, im sorry, but i just don't understand where this CLEAR Advantage reasoning the F430 has over the Gallardo comes from. Sticky, you keep using the term 'bloated'...in what context? Forgive me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the F430 have a kerb weight of 1450Kg and the Gallardo 1470Kg (ish)? Considering it has 2 more cylinders and 4WD...this is not bad at all. Yes the F430 does 'feel' lighter on its feet, but also much much less assured with its nervous rear end. Around a track the F430 has not been proved to be that much faster, and on everyday roads and day-to-day driving the Gallardo trumps it. It suffers minimnal understeer and is planted in all conditions. The only complaint coming from testers seems to be initial brake pedal feel.

As for 50/50 weight distribution...hmm. I agree Front engined RWD configuration is very good. But if 50/50 is the way forward, why does the Maser Quattroporte lap the EVO track faster than the M5 even though its Kerb weight is 1940Kg and it doesn't have the much-hyped SMG AND is down on power. ? Maybe the 46:54 distribution of the Maser is the way forward.....

The E90 M3 Vs B7 RS4 WON'T be, like you suggested, the B6 S4 Vs E46 M3 contest. The RS is completely different to the S4. The E90 M3 will be fantastic IMO. It don't really see how it can fail to be. I do however hope its V8 is like the M5 V10.....because then the V8 in the RS4 will already trump it in terms of sound...NO CONTEST. The BM V10 sounds horrid....and is no contest for the vocal delights of the Lambo V10 or the Porsche V10.:lovl: :music:

Straight line test may be the be-all in the US...but here (in the UK) when the roads get twisty and both driver ability and handling come into focus, the merits of a sure-footed, well resolved car come to the fore-front.

I'm done on this topic now.....:rotflmao:

:0: Taz:incar:
I don't know what weight measurement they use for the euro weight, curb, with driver, or dry. The weight I go by is what they measure in the states putting the gallardo at 3500 vs. the F430's 3200. The gallardo isn't "bloated" unless it is compared to the F430. Cars are getting so heavy that 3500 doesn't look that bad, it is about what the 997 turbo weighs in at. However, porsche has lighter options.

The sound is in the RS4's court, but we need to wait and see what crank BMW went for in the M3 V8 which will have great affect on the sound. Who knows how it will sound, but the RS4 does sound great.

The straight line isn't everything it is just the easiest aspect to compare. I am sure the R8 will be spectacular in the turns and with feedback as if it feels anything like the gallardo then it will be a winner. The issue is if it is outgunned in power at that 100k mark.

Leadfoot
January 13th, 2007, 09:00
The 276 agreement was scrapped, they no longer adhere to it.

Roush designed V12 for the Mclaren??? BMW ended up being the choice for the motor manufacturer for th McLaren F1 when Gordon Murray couldn't get Honda.

Roush are one of the top engine consultants so tazsura may be right, BMW might have enlisted the help of Roush to develop the engine like they do for lots of companies including F1 teams.

tazsura
January 13th, 2007, 15:32
Yes, and it was BMW's Paul Rosche who was in charge of the engine to be precise.

Taz:blush:

sticky
January 13th, 2007, 19:17
Yes, and it was BMW's Paul Rosche who was in charge of the engine to be precise.

Taz:blush:
This is correct, there is a big difference between Roush and Rosche.

Roush did not have anything to do with the BMW motor.

Leadfoot
January 13th, 2007, 20:02
This is correct, there is a big difference between Roush and Rosche.

Roush did not have anything to do with the BMW motor.

sticky,

How sure are you that you're right?

BMW, Porsche, Ferrari all of them use outside help when designing things, they all use gearboxes made by outside sources, the electrics are sourced, the suspension systems are sourced, why does it sound so outrageous for BMW to use an outside source to help develop an engine, Audi used Cosworth with the RS4 Mk1 engine prior to acquiring them.

I know you think very highly of BMW engineering and I agree it's up there with the best, but why are you so sure that Tazsura isn't correct.

Surely there is someone on the forum that can shed a little light on this debate.:brag:

sticky
January 13th, 2007, 22:20
sticky,

How sure are you that you're right?

BMW, Porsche, Ferrari all of them use outside help when designing things, they all use gearboxes made by outside sources, the electrics are sourced, the suspension systems are sourced, why does it sound so outrageous for BMW to use an outside source to help develop an engine, Audi used Cosworth with the RS4 Mk1 engine prior to acquiring them.

I know you think very highly of BMW engineering and I agree it's up there with the best, but why are you so sure that Tazsura isn't correct.

Surely there is someone on the forum that can shed a little light on this debate.:brag:
Rosche designed the E30 M3 motor and headed the engine development of the motorsport division. When Murray came to BMW asking for help with designing a motor for the McLaren F1, they set to work. The motor was a fully internal BMW design which was set to meet a certain weight and torque goal, which it exceeded. I have never heard of any external collaboration on the design of the motor. Roush does all kinds of work all over the world with many companies, but I have never heard their name in connection with BMW and the McLaren F1.

Leadfoot
January 13th, 2007, 22:30
Rosche designed the E30 M3 motor and headed the engine development of the motorsport division. When Murray came to BMW asking for help with designing a motor for the McLaren F1, they set to work. The motor was a fully internal BMW design which was set to meet a certain weight and torque goal, which it exceeded. I have never heard of any external collaboration on the design of the motor. Roush does all kinds of work all over the world with many companies, but I have never heard their name in connection with BMW and the McLaren F1.

All I was saying is one can't rule it out. The fact that they work with such famous name and in the F1 circles there is a likely hood that what Tazsura is saying maybe right. It won't make BMW work or the engine itself any less an achievement for BMW, I just find it amazing you dismiss it out of hand just because you haven't heard the name associated with BMW or McLaren, hell there is lots that both companies keep quiet from the general public, but just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I say keep an open mind until there is proof otherwise.:thumb:

sticky
January 13th, 2007, 23:27
All I was saying is one can't rule it out. The fact that they work with such famous name and in the F1 circles there is a likely hood that what Tazsura is saying maybe right. It won't make BMW work or the engine itself any less an achievement for BMW, I just find it amazing you dismiss it out of hand just because you haven't heard the name associated with BMW or McLaren, hell there is lots that both companies keep quiet from the general public, but just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I say keep an open mind until there is proof otherwise.:thumb:
Umm, I can't find anything anywhere of Roush working with BMW on the McLaren F1 motor. There are videos out there on McLaren, tons of fan pages, and pages from BMW motorsport themselves.

Keeping an open mind is always the right thing to do but everyone knows BMW motorsport designed that motor, it is common knowledge. There is nothing out there connecting Roush in any form, how is that for proof? The only time Roush has been mentioned with BMW and development of the F1 motor has been in this thread. I don't know what proof to find as there is nothing out there to say, "Roush did not work on this motor," because there is no association and it has never been brought up. BMW motorsport created this V12, basing it on their existing V12 block from the 850csi. Of this, I am 100% certain.

I am not dismissing it because I haven't heard the name associated, I am dismissing it because I have read many things on the McLaren F1 and the official McLaren book along with everything ever written on the motor doesn't mention Roush, only BMW Motorsport. That is why I dicount it, I don't know what else to say.

Unless there is some secret agreement we all don't know about I suppose there is a chance. There is also a chance ferrari worked on the motor, ford, and chevrolet as well, we can't rule them out just in case.

Lateknight
January 13th, 2007, 23:46
I think there is a confusion here between Rosche and Roush (obviously)

I'm with 'sticky' on this - Roush have nothing to do with the 6.1 ltr BMW designed engine used in the F1.
Roush do modify Chrysler 6.1ltr Hemi engines, though.

At best, it maybe the right thing to agree to disagree on this one.:thumb:

Leadfoot
January 14th, 2007, 00:58
Agreed, I was only making the point that I didn't have any knowledge otherwise so I couldn't rule it out of hand. The McLaren F1 has never interested me personally so my knowledge is limited to what the magazines has wrote on the subject. I know that the old M3 was meant to be half of it's block, but other than that, I know very little.

I was keeping an open mind because I know of Roush's involvement in motorsport engine development in the same way as Cosworth is and I know that numerous companies have used their expertise, why not Roush's.