porsche shafts audi again

[RXBG]

audi/vw develops DSG. porsche gets it in its main car, the 911 as of the 2008 MY. audi's R8 doesn't (but the little TT does)......AND porsche gets FSI :doh:

sure. vw seems to have shafted porsche with the whole tuareg/cayenne fiasco but why does it seem that audi is getting the ultimate shaft in this case?

shiites............ audi puts all its pretty marbles in the R8 save DSG. i am surprised the 911 doesn't get full LED headlights for the 2008 MY. :w:

[Leadfoot]

audi/vw develops DSG. porsche gets it in its main car, the 911 as of the 2008 MY. audi's R8 doesn't (but the little TT does)......AND porsche gets FSI :doh:

sure. vw seems to have shafted porsche with the whole tuareg/cayenne fiasco but why does it seem that audi is getting the ultimate shaft in this case?

shiites............ audi puts all its pretty marbles in the R8 save DSG. i am surprised the 911 doesn't get full LED headlights for the 2008 MY. :w:

I think the R8 is a suck it and see car for Audi and that's the reason why it doesn't have DSG at the minute. If the car is a success then they may develop and introduce the gearbox but at present with the limited sales of the Lambos it means it's not cost effective, but if the R8 sales in a greatly increased numbers than that will be a different matter.

Like wise until the R8's sales with the V8 and proves a success only then will the V10 be added to the mix and so on.

[Andyuk911]

but Porsche will sell Audi when they buy VW

[Cale24]

audi/vw develops DSG. porsche gets it in its main car, the 911 as of the 2008 MY. audi's R8 doesn't (but the little TT does)......AND porsche gets FSI :doh:

sure. vw seems to have shafted porsche with the whole tuareg/cayenne fiasco but why does it seem that audi is getting the ultimate shaft in this case?

shiites............ audi puts all its pretty marbles in the R8 save DSG. i am surprised the 911 doesn't get full LED headlights for the 2008 MY. :w:


Porsche will not get rid of Audi- if they do they'll have shot themselves in the foot. In reality, Porsche built up most of its current might WITHOUT VW- it turned down govt. subsidies for the Cayenne and Panamera projects and in reality does not need VW parts to be a success. As for the touareg- its ultra dull and was not marketed as well, and was always going to be in the shadows of Porsche's 'first SUV'. As for FSI, I wasn't aware it came straight from VW? Even so, if Mazda can get get it into their current cars already, Porsche certainly have the engineering abilities to do it! And LED headlights? Nice enough but any manufacturer could impliment them if they so desired. At the end of the day, Porsche will help VW- Wiedeking's sole purpose in life is making more money, and that will impact VAG. His track record speaks for itself. In a trade for that, Porsche will cut some of their own costs by sharing with VAG through whatever way, so what? And, I doubt Porsche will limit Audi's use of (their own) technology such as DSG- if it isnt in the R8 now, its because of other more logical reasons.
I think we can all be happy with the situation, skeptical though some of you may be. Bugatti will probably be sold on, and Skoda too( I hope). All in all, I think the future looks bright for the VAG as a whole- BMW should be worried an Daimler Chrysler ARE worried.

[chewym]

Yes, the DSG and FSI look like they came from VW/Audi. The R8 also makes more torque than any NA 911 out currently. And it won't come for a while. But Porsche better not even attempts to mess with the Audi RS6, Bentley and some other VW/Audi cars/brands.

[Mr Balsen]

hold down, my friend.

Simply because the DSG is based on the PDK Gearbox developp by Porsche in the eighties for the Porsche 956/962. And the agreement between Porsche and VW for the Touareg/Cayenne included a line about Audi not selling an SUV...... Not to mention the 4 wheels drive of the 959 was designed with the help of Audi Engineers..... So Porsche and Audi have been working together for a long time. It is not a surprise if Walter Rohrl went from Audi to Porsche and Ferdinand Piech from Porsche to Audi. Joest Racing Team worked with Porsche and Audi at Le Mans.

I will prefer Porsche to manage Audi if it is different than VW which is taking all the benefis made by Audi to finance their mistakes (Phaeton for example....)

Cheers,
Frederic

[Cale24]

Agreed Frederic. Porsche and Audi have been on the same side of the fence for a long time, and I'm sure their future will benefit just the same.

[Benman]

I will prefer Porsche to manage Audi if it is different than VW which is taking all the benefis made by Audi to finance their mistakes (Phaeton for example....)

Cheers,
Frederic

Well said and a great perspective on things!:0:

Ben:addict:

[chewym]

I am ok with Porsche as long as they don't have total control, in other words they don't get anymore than what they have currently. Because I think a car like the 580 horsepower RS6 might challange the Panamera too much and be cancelled/severely weakened. Of course that is the worst case scenario, hopefully that doesn't occur.

[aquapuss]

I've had my 997 Turbo with Tiptronic a couple of months now and it is totally *not* shafting my old 30K km RS6 Plus wagon with a few extra ponies. I think it is time to start saving for a Lambo.

Of all things, the P-car has more comfortable ride than the Audi. Go figure. And the Porsche ceramic brakes are about 10x better than the Audi's...but I'm still underwhelmed with the new car.

[Cale24]

I've had my 997 Turbo with Tiptronic a couple of months now and it is totally *not* shafting my old 30K km RS6 Plus wagon with a few extra ponies. I think it is time to start saving for a Lambo.

Of all things, the P-car has more comfortable ride than the Audi. Go figure. And the Porsche ceramic brakes are about 10x better than the Audi's...but I'm still underwhelmed with the new car.


Hmmm, interesting reading that. Have you considered a GT3? Many local Porsche club guys have said similar things about the 997TT, being too 'smooth' in a similar vein to the 996 version. Most 993 turbo owners have gone for the 997 GT3 as a result.


As for Audi suffereing at the performance end, I'm not sure how that will pan out. The panamera will perhaps influence this topic indeed.

[Mori]

I believe the issue with DSG is thats its designed for traversely mounted engines, and Porsche obviously seemed to have adapted it to the 911. Audi hasn't to longitudely mounted engines so no DSG until they do. I don't see anyone shafting anyone here...

[Mr Balsen]

Well said and a great perspective on things!:0:

Ben:addict:

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Cheers,
Frederic

[Leadfoot]

hold down, my friend.

Simply because the DSG is based on the PDK Gearbox developp by Porsche in the eighties for the Porsche 956/962. And the agreement between Porsche and VW for the Touareg/Cayenne included a line about Audi not selling an SUV...... Not to mention the 4 wheels drive of the 959 was designed with the help of Audi Engineers..... So Porsche and Audi have been working together for a long time. It is not a surprise if Walter Rohrl went from Audi to Porsche and Ferdinand Piech from Porsche to Audi. Joest Racing Team worked with Porsche and Audi at Le Mans.

I will prefer Porsche to manage Audi if it is different than VW which is taking all the benefis made by Audi to finance their mistakes (Phaeton for example....)

Cheers,
Frederic

Frederic, why do you feel things would be better under Porsche than VW. Lets face it VW took all the benefits under instruction from Ferdinand Piech who after all will still play a major part even under Porsche's control. The main advantage I see is the fact that Porsche is run more like a family business than a multi-national with numerous members of the board discussing what direction to take. With Porsche, decisions will be made much quicker to changes in the market place hopefully keeping VAG ahead of the game.

Has anyone thought that with Porsche acquiring VAG will allow the Porsche brand to stick with producing Sports cars and not having to diversify into other produce sections, leaving that to their other acquisitions.

[Mori]

Lets hope so - to me they could just stick to the 911. ;)

[Mr Balsen]

Frederic, why do you feel things would be better under Porsche than VW. Lets face it VW took all the benefits under instruction from Ferdinand Piech who after all will still play a major part even under Porsche's control. The main advantage I see is the fact that Porsche is run more like a family business than a multi-national with numerous members of the board discussing what direction to take. With Porsche, decisions will be made much quicker to changes in the market place hopefully keeping VAG ahead of the game.

Has anyone thought that with Porsche acquiring VAG will allow the Porsche brand to stick with producing Sports cars and not having to diversify into other produce sections, leaving that to their other acquisitions.

I am not saying it will be better under Porsche vs VW. I just hope if it become reality that Porsche Top Management will not behave like VW Top Management squeezing Audi like a lemon until the very last euro. Last year at the same time, there was no money for DTM or for other main events despite the big benefits made by Audi AG. Also I don't recall Porsche making a big mistake like the VW Phaeton or the Passat W8....

Fred

[Leadfoot]

So, lets talk about the benefits that Porsche will bring to the table apart from the one I have already mentioned.

[Mr Balsen]

So, lets talk about the benefits that Porsche will bring to the table apart from the one I have already mentioned.

Well I see a big one which is Porsche will support a lot better Audi in racing than VW.

Can you believe VW was against Audi in Rallye in the 80's ? ? ? But it was true; Ferdinand Piech lied to VW Top Management many times when Audi sport developped prototypes (including Sport Quattro S2 with rear middle engine) and which is why HB Team was a sponsor because VW did not want Audi to pay the bill. And very recently VW refused Audi to used the V10 TDI for Le Mans because the V10 TDI was solely for the Touareg ! ! ! So they did the V12 TDI and Audi won....

And today if you want to upset people at Ingolstadt, you just say volkswagen ! ! !

Cheers,
Frederic

[RXBG]

i do not see how porsche would support audi more when the R8 is porsche's biggest headache. lets face it. the R8 is what the next gen 911 should be.

the 911 is the basic sports car used in the lower echelons of amateur and low budget pro car racing. even in the GT1 and 2 le mans class all you see are porsches.

the only place porsche doesn't have a showing is in the DTM (AFAIK) and rally.....

:nono:

[Mr Balsen]

i do not see how porsche would support audi more when the R8 is porsche's biggest headache. lets face it. the R8 is what the next gen 911 should be.

the 911 is the basic sports car used in the lower echelons of amateur and low budget pro car racing. even in the GT1 and 2 le mans class all you see are porsches.

the only place porsche doesn't have a showing is in the DTM (AFAIK) and rally.....

:nono:

Yes the R8 is the biggest headache of Porsche. And it is because Audi was not allowed to build 911 competitor before. But Audi did a Speedster with a V6 in the past not to mention the beautifull Avus.

As for the basic sports car used in the lower echelons of amateur, it is called the Cayman and it is working very well.

Frederic

[chewym]

I don't think that VW had anything to do with the Audi R10 having a V12 TDI. It shares absolutely nothing with the VW V10 TDI for the Touareg. Using more (12)cylinders makes perfect sense for the R10 TDI. Just saying that Porsche is more likely to control Audi and limit its top models. I have heard that Porsche is so awesome on the money side, but that comes with the Porsche name and not managment. Kind of like with BMW. Porsche customers are willing to pay a lot, especially for options (with crazy option prices) for the Porsche badge. I am sure that Audi is working on getting its badge be worthy. Again, I am not against Porsche having some control in VAG (like they do now) but total Porsche control is not necessary IMO and might not be beneficial.

[Mr Balsen]

I don't think that VW had anything to do with the Audi R10 having a V12 TDI. It shares absolutely nothing with the VW V10 TDI for the Touareg.


Oh yes it does, because VW prevented Audi to use the V10 block to developp the race engine for the R10 TDI. Reason is that the V10 TDI is an engine for the VW Touareg and not for Audi cars, R10 or Q7.

Cheers,
Frederic

[chewym]

Oh yes it does, because VW prevented Audi to use the V10 block to developp the race engine for the R10 TDI. Reason is that the V10 TDI is an engine for the VW Touareg and not for Audi cars, R10 or Q7.

Cheers,
Frederic

Maybe you are right, but I am sure that the R10 has a block that is far, far away from any production TDI engine. Even if Audi could do whatever they wanted with the Touareg block the final engine would share nothing in common and still have 12 cyilnders as Peugeout has a 12 cylinder Le Mans diesel as well. Both have 12 cylinders for reliability reasons.

[Cale24]

I don't think that VW had anything to do with the Audi R10 having a V12 TDI. It shares absolutely nothing with the VW V10 TDI for the Touareg. Using more (12)cylinders makes perfect sense for the R10 TDI. Just saying that Porsche is more likely to control Audi and limit its top models. I have heard that Porsche is so awesome on the money side, but that comes with the Porsche name and not managment. Kind of like with BMW. Porsche customers are willing to pay a lot, especially for options (with crazy option prices) for the Porsche badge. I am sure that Audi is working on getting its badge be worthy. Again, I am not against Porsche having some control in VAG (like they do now) but total Porsche control is not necessary IMO and might not be beneficial.


Porsche is what it is today, financially, because of Wiedeking. Purists will mock him, but at the end of the day he has saved the company. I think the Porsche influence will be most beneficial as it stands today. If it were to extend further, I still don't see why VW is a better option?

[Mr Balsen]

Maybe you are right, but I am sure that the R10 has a block that is far, far away from any production TDI engine. Even if Audi could do whatever they wanted with the Touareg block the final engine would share nothing in common and still have 12 cyilnders as Peugeout has a 12 cylinder Le Mans diesel as well. Both have 12 cylinders for reliability reasons.

Except Audi Sport originally started to developp a race TDI engine based on the V10 Engine from the Touareg. It was 3 years ago when Formula 1 were all V10 engine either. They later moved to the V12 because of VW decision. And for Peugeot, originally it should have been a V6 TDI. Because Audi did a V12, Peugeot is doing a V12. Except Peugeot is very very late in the program while Audi Sport is developping a better R10 for next year....

Cheers,
Frederic

[chewym]

Except Audi Sport originally started to developp a race TDI engine based on the V10 Engine from the Touareg. It was 3 years ago when Formula 1 were all V10 engine either. They later moved to the V12 because of VW decision. And for Peugeot, originally it should have been a V6 TDI. Because Audi did a V12, Peugeot is doing a V12. Except Peugeot is very very late in the program while Audi Sport is developping a better R10 for next year....

Cheers,
Frederic

Maybe you are correct as I don't have any insider info. Audi probably could have done a V10. I do hope that if that was the case that VW doesn't do it again in the future and it seems that VW will definatley not go upmarket anymore. As for Peugeuot the V6 would have definately strugled as those would be very big pistons for racing. But you are definately correct that Peugeout is behind schedule as by this time this year the R10 was already 100% completed and undergoing lots of testing. So far Peugeout hasn't even built a racing 908. The only advantage that they might have as that they are a coupe so they get bigger restrictors.

[Leadfoot]

Porsche is what it is today, financially, because of Wiedeking. Purists will mock him, but at the end of the day he has saved the company. I think the Porsche influence will be most beneficial as it stands today. If it were to extend further, I still don't see why VW is a better option?

I am right in saying it was his decision to produce the Boxster and in doing so saved the company from bankruptcy?

If so then it only proves that Porsche prier to him joining was not that great management wise and this must include Ferdinand Piech who IMO has in a way brought VW to it's knees because of the chassis/parts sharing between it's other brands, benefiting Audi, Seat and Skoda at the expense of VW.

I still think if it does happen the first thing Wiedeking will do is trim back. Sell off Seat, Lamborghini and Bugatti and then take stock of which way to drive the business forward.Choosing what position each of the remaining brands will take in the market place including Porsche.

[Mr Balsen]

I am right in saying it was his decision to produce the Boxster and in doing so saved the company from bankruptcy?

If so then it only proves that Porsche prier to him joining was not that great management wise and this must include Ferdinand Piech who IMO has in a way brought VW to it's knees because of the chassis/parts sharing between it's other brands, benefiting Audi, Seat and Skoda at the expense of VW.

I still think if it does happen the first thing Wiedeking will do is trim back. Sell off Seat, Lamborghini and Bugatti and then take stock of which way to drive the business forward.Choosing what position each of the remaining brands will take in the market place including Porsche.

I believe the same also applies to the Cayenne.
As for Ferdinand Piech, I disagree because all the car makers built the same model: Ford with Jaguar with Aston Martin. And so on.

Frederic

[Leadfoot]

I believe the same also applies to the Cayenne.
As for Ferdinand Piech, I disagree because all the car makers built the same model: Ford with Jaguar with Aston Martin. And so on.

Frederic

I know they are all doing it now but what is wrong with the way VW have done it is there is very little difference between the differing models/makes. When you drive a Ford Focus ST and the new Volvo C30 they may be the same basic structure but the two are like chalk and cheese, the same can't be said about a Golf/A3/Leon etc.

[chewym]

I know they are all doing it now but what is wrong with the way VW have done it is there is very little difference between the differing models/makes. When you drive a Ford Focus ST and the new Volvo C30 they may be the same basic structure but the two are like chalk and cheese, the same can't be said about a Golf/A3/Leon etc.

Golf and A3 are the two closest VW and Audi products. You would have freaked out if you lived here in the states with reworked Toyotas sold as Lexuses. BTW, Audi is making big profit (13%) per vehicle which is more than BMW (11%) because they have split development/costs with VW.

BTW, now that Porsche is clearly getting VW/Audi technology (FSI and DSG, the 3.6-liter V(R) 6 from the Passat/Q7) to make this a productive relationship Porsche should give Audi (and maybe VW) their brand new 4.8-liter V8 from the redesigned Cayenne (that has VW/Audi FSI that is called DFI in the Porshe. That would benefit Audi greatly and would make for a fair relationship.

[Audiphile]

You are correct Chewym. Audi, as everyone knows I am sure, has developed its own platform system that is Audi-specific. The only reason the platform could not be incorporated into the new TT and the new A3 was due to production times. However, the TT platform has been considerably modified by Audi to include aluminum and other advances. Audi only utilizes the basic platform and re-engineers the rest. It always amuses me when someone calls out the "rebadging" thing. This applies to Lexus which is clearly a rebadged Toyota, yet Americans go googaa over it as if it is something special. Yet, Audi is technologically and otherwise lightyears ahead of them in all aspects of the true sense of what it means to be premium. Thank goodness the rest of the world is smart enough to appreciate the true prestige of Audi -substance above all else.

The day of reckoning is coming as Audi continues to surge globally. America will eventually get it as Audi cleans up its marketing ways, and we know this is already happening with major American markets like LA, Chicago, and NY to name a few showing double digit growth. What Audi has achieved in the last 10 years is a testament to the strength of the marquee and the company as a whole. No other carmaker has achieved such progress and depth. With Audi to report 13% return on capital when two years ago it was about 9% displays its business savey. BMW can only point to success in America mainly, while Audi grows substantially in all markets around the world.

Sometimes I am drawn out to a site called autospies.com. It is like going to a circus and watching the clowns perform. The comments made against Audi by clearly either ignorant or jealous types or both is quite a joke. Thank goodness for intelligent sites like rs6.com.

[chewym]

Sometimes I am drawn out to a site called autospies.com. It is like going to a circus and watching the clowns perform. The comments made against Audi by clearly either ignorant or jealous types or both is quite a joke. Thank goodness for intelligent sites like rs6.com.

What is your name there. The Lexus bias has come over lately with the entire page filled with Lexus ads.

Does anybody else think that the 4.8-liter V8 from the new (refreshed) Porsche Cayenne with a few mods be perfect in some future Audis.

[Audiphile]

It is Caltrans. Is your name there just Chewy? If it is you are one of the few intelligent ones there. To me, Lexus will always be below Audi.

Anway, I think the 4.8 V8 might be good for the A6, but I think that Audi will continue to develop mostly its own powerplants, which is exactly what they should continue to do.

[chewym]

It is Caltrans. Is your name there just Chewy? If it is you are one of the few intelligent ones there. To me, Lexus will always be below Audi.

Anway, I think the 4.8 V8 might be good for the A6, but I think that Audi will continue to develop mostly its own powerplants, which is exactly what they should continue to do.

Yep I am chewy. While Audi makes great engines, its current V8 is low on torque because of its smaller diplacement and the Porsche V8 (with DFI, or FSI from Audi) would give Audi more displacement and torque. And that engine can probably be tuned for 400+ hp in the future. This would also save time and money for Audi and get something back from Porsche.

[Leadfoot]

chewym & Audiphile,

I know that the A3/Golf is the only version that uses a directly similar chassis, the TT's is heavily modified. But as I and yous have stated this sharing benefits Audi at the expense of VW and alas the Golf is where VW makes the most of it's profit. I would reckon that the cost to make a A3 is very similar to that of the Golf mainly because they use all the same switch gear, air-con units etc.

VW has to somehow make the Golf cheaper to manufacture and that is why the MK6 Golf is being released a year early to help regain profits, this might be under Porsche's instruction, who knows. Anyway I have less of a problem with Audi using the Golf chassis as I have Seat and Skoda, both are cheapening the Golf/A3 brand image, with these there should be less sharing of parts.

Toyota and Lexus, I have little knowledge of other than what I read in magazines but understand where you are coming from.

[Cale24]

BTW, now that Porsche is clearly getting VW/Audi technology (FSI and DSG, the 3.6-liter V(R) 6 from the Passat/Q7) to make this a productive relationship Porsche should give Audi (and maybe VW) their brand new 4.8-liter V8 from the redesigned Cayenne (that has VW/Audi FSI that is called DFI in the Porshe. That would benefit Audi greatly and would make for a fair relationship.

Good call. Concerning DSG, I thought Porsche had been forced to develop their own system as the Audi version can't be made to fit in the 997 range? Porsche also wanted to use the Mercedes based 7 speed auto in their tiptronic versions, but had the same problem. BTW, the Merc SL55 and 996 Turbo shared the same box (tip).

[Lateknight]

The 'Real' reason Audi used a bespoke V12 tdi at Le Mans is because the V10 will not go beyond 5 litres (its actually closer to 4.9 anyway @4921cc - shouldn't be allowed to claim its 5 ltrs) when the regulations stipulate diesel engines up to 5.5 litres. Why develop a production engine thats not big enough ?

Porsche are not stealing any of VW/Audis secrets. The 2 Companies have been sharing suppliers for years. It was only scaremongering that VW could be taken over by a foreign party that triggered porsche to buy 20% in the first place, to protect its own buying power with parts suppliers (thru VW).
All the latest technology on our cars will be developed by Siemens or Bosch etc. 'in conjunction with' Audi, but not by Audi.

If Porsche are bringing out a DSG 911, It cannot be to far away for Audi to have a version ready for its longitudinal engined models (A4/A6/A8). A 911 gearbox and an Audi gearbox are frighteningly similar in appearance.
Turn the diff thru' 180 degrees, bolt on different bellhousing and I'm sure one could be used for the other.
:trash:

[Audiphile]

You are correct Lateknight. Audi and Porsche have been sharing technology for quite a few decades. Didn't Porsche assist Audi in developing the early RS Avants? I think that Audi and Porsche will continue to merge more than VW and Porsche, and I agree that Porsche is protecting its ecomonies of scale by enhancing its ownership in VW. Makes sense as Porsche is generally too small to compete against some of the giants. Plus, this gives Porsche a volume brand in VW which otherwise it would never enter that market. As for Audi and Porsche, I see more complementation than separation. Audi is the premium luxury marquee and Porsche is the premium sports car marquee.