Audi and Volkswagen: is it divorce?

[tailpipe]

Judging by continuing shenanigans in Wolfsburg and Weissach, it is looking increasingly likely that Porsche and VW will become one. Porsche now owns close to 29% of Volkswagen - the limit allowed in Germany before a full takeover bid must be announced - and has asked for three seats on the board. Now it looks as if they will also apply for chairmanship of the board when Ferdinand Piech steps down in the New Year. If this happens, Porsche will have gained de facto control over VW without paying a price premium. This is something that is upsetting quite a few shareholders, inluding the State of Lower Saxony, VW's next largest shareholder after Porsche. Thus it sems likely that Porsche will be forced to make a formal bid for VW. The question is how will they pay for it? The answer is sell Audi, not least because this will protect the VW brand currently being eroded by Audi's burgeoning success and prevent product overlap. Ultimately, VW is a stronger brand than Audi even if Audi products are more profitable.

The persistent rumour is that Audi is about to become an independent car maker again. This means four things:
1. Models in every segment
2. Rear-wheel drive chassis
3. More proprietary engines
4. More sporting models

There is also talk of private equity buyers purchasing the Company - we're talking the largest car deal in living memory here.

The question is what will become of Audi when it is a free spirit? Can it survive alone and without many of the previous synergies of being part of VW?

[Leadfoot]

I agree that it is looking more likely that Porsche will take over VAG, but I'm not so sure that this will spell the end of Audi in the group. We have all seen VW try and fail at moving into the luxury market and no matter how good the big car was no one wanted an expensive VW. So even under Porsche's control I doubt we will see a repeat of this, will this mean Porsche broadening it's range and moving down market into the size and price bracket just above the Passat, some people including some from this forum think that this would cheapen the brand name of Porsche and that would not only spell disaster for Porsche but VW as well. My thinking is that in the near future (next 6-8 years) Audi will remain in the group until Porsche can see a way of either making VW or Porsche filling the gap between each other.

If Audi does stay long term in the group then Tailpipe I believe you will get your wish of rwd in the Audi range.:jlol:

[RXBG]

i think the whole damn thing is rotten, really. porsche is to germany what rockefeller is to the US, a family (and others like them) who live at such a stratospherically elite monetary level of society as to be invisible in the way they operate and manipulate the most influential levels of the economy. (see benm's interesting theories on new-order-like conspiracy theories, not necessarily applying to this scenario, which i wholeheartedly agree with).

i think porsche would ideally like to acquire audi as well, and all of its subsidiaries. not to liquify them but to make money with them while as invisibly as possible paralyzing them. and in the meantime evolving the core of what porsche is, the 911, into the car the R8 became. that the R8 happened illustrates the fallibility and limitations of even the porsche family (unless they intended it to happen for one of many reasons i won't go into), but doesn't take away the fact that the future will bring what the future will bring; the plateauing of audi's transformation and the end of what could have one day been the most well rounded and most beautifully produced cars a car company in germany ever had.

i think audi's climb will soon reach its crest. not as a function of itself, but as a function of external forces, whose net best interest is focused on the ultimate success of another car company.

[Damienr8]

i think the whole damn thing is rotten, really. porsche is to germany what rockefeller is to the US, a family (and others like them) who live at such a stratospherically elite monetary level of society as to be invisible in the way they operate and manipulate the most influential levels of the economy. (see benm's interesting theories on new-order-like conspiracy theories, not necessarily applying to this scenario, which i wholeheartedly agree with).

i think porsche would ideally like to acquire audi as well, and all of its subsidiaries. not to liquify them but to make money with them while as invisibly as possible paralyzing them. and in the meantime evolving the core of what porsche is, the 911, into the car the R8 became. that the R8 happened illustrates the fallibility and limitations of even the porsche family (unless they intended it to happen for one of many reasons i won't go into), but doesn't take away the fact that the future will bring what the future will bring; the plateauing of audi's transformation and the end of what could have one day been the most well rounded and most beautifully produced cars a car company in germany ever had.

i think audi's climb will soon reach its crest. not as a function of itself, but as a function of external forces, whose net best interest is focused on the ultimate success of another car company.


Hi RXBG, I havent been in in a while. I personally think that porche acquiring VW is a very risky idea.

In the case that Audi becomes an independent car company (minus lambo) I think audi will be able to strategize its model plans more effectively to compete within its market segment.

That being, Audi will be able to compete in the luxury/sport market segments with 'no holds back' from either VW, lambo, etc. But then again, i would like to see Audi become a very profitable company before this ever takes place.

On a high level analysis, can anyone discuss the relationship that audi has with VW on advertising, platform sharing or any cost reduction techniques. I would like to know that if audi was to become an independent manufacturer, what would audi lose from its parent?

[roadrunner]

Very interresting conversation and speculations.

Some quick thought:

As no one from us really knows, what Porsche's long term strategy is (and i am sure they have one) and Martin Winterkorn as head of VW is probably the last person willing to let Audi part, I do not see any major changes in the near future.
Besides the speculated regrouping (Audi, Lambo, Bentleay and Bugatti as the luxury group and VW, Skoda Seat as the "bread and butter" group).

A lot of the things that happen, could well be to ensure the existance of the VW group and to ensure a majority German ownership.

As for R8 to become what 911 should have been: i love what i have seen and heard of the R8, BUT it could never be a Porsche, because the 911 has always been an evolution, where as the R8 is a revoluton - and i much rather prefer the R8 to be an Audi.

I look forward to the sales figures of the R8 and the 911 and how much or how litte effect the R8 will have on the 911. I think they can coexist. Don't forget that the R8 is a limited automobile for the next years (production capacity).

Greets.
Seb

[nene]

Personally I just think the Germans were getting tired of the USA car makers soap-opera taking over the communication channels.

In USA car makers complain that they can't put together a profitable year to save their lives, and that consolidation is key, and blah, blah, blah....

Well, Germans just figured they'd go at it too, and at least they can complain of market canibalization within sister brands of a major company that is profitable. What the heck?

The R8 is Halo Car for Audi. It is simply an exercise (profitable one hopefully) to demonstrate that they too can create a good high end sports car if they so wish. And it is a car with very limited production, possibly much like the Z8 was for BMW. If Porsche is bringing a gun to a simple fist fight, clearly they need a larger pair of 'cajones'!!! Bunch of insecure fellows I guess.

Porsche will be Porsche. The other brands under the VAG umbrella will be what they are. No one is going to kill anyone, or go to divorce court. And that is my final answer.

[Erik]

Maybe Porsche buys VAG, a change in the 46 year old law may open for this.

[tailpipe]

This thread isn't speculation.

The facts speak for themselves: Porsche now owns 25.1% of the VW Group. It has applied for 3 seats on the Board. As VW's largest shareholder, it has also suggested that it will apply for Chairmanship of the Board when Ferdinand Piech steps down in March/ April 2007. This gives it, as of today, de facto control of the Group.

Behind this move is a growing belief among Car Industry Analysts that German Auto makers will only survive by adopting a two-tier structure, like Toyota/ Lexus or Ford/ PAG. This means that VW has to reposition the Volkswagen brand at a lower, more competitive price point so that it captures a more mainstream audience while Audi needs to move further upmarket and increase prices. Unfortunately, There is no scope for Audi to increase prices. The brand isn't strong enough.

If a united Porsche and Volkswagen can share major components both companies can achieve a complementary product line up while achieving major cost savings, which would increase Porsche's profits. Dumping Audi would enable VW to reduce its manufacturing dependency on Germany, and allow it to embrace low cost Asian production markets.

The most important car for VW is the Golf. This car's market share has been seriously eroded by both Skoda and Audi's A3. Next Skoda will be positioned versus the Polo not the Golf, giving VW more market space. Audi will still offer an A3, but expect it to move away from Golf to be a more stylish luxury alternative.

In reality, what is happening is that Audi is being replaced as the VW Group's luxury brand by Porsche. Porsche needs VW not only to ensure the supply of low-cost components, but also to help it develop new platforms. These platforms will only justify the investment if they achieve certain volumes. Which is why you now see VW producing a 4-door coupe. There really isn't room for Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen to all share platforms. There would be too much product overlap. This is what has killed GM.

The reason this has all happened is that ultimately VW is a stronger brand than Audi in terms of total market power and sales volumes. Watch this space.

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe, in a way some of VAG's problems steam of a decision made by the then head of VW, Dr Piech. His decision to chassis share as well as parts share meant that there was no real difference between the different brands, be it Audi, Seat, VW or Skoda. Think about it, the only real difference between the golf based models are style, to the untrained which is basically most of the general public, they all drive the same, such one might be a little griper and another might be a little softer sprung but basically they are the same so why spent more for the VW/Audi product when the Seat/Skoda is just as good.

No this decision in the beginning may have looked like the best idea ever but time has shown this to not be the case and now this same man is behind the take over. Will we see a repeat only this time with Porsche becoming the long term loser.

I don't know what the answers are for VAG but this joining might not be the best decision long term for any of the brands. But to dump what is your most profitable brand (Audi) would to most business men sound like financial suicide.

[Damienr8]

I don't know what the answers are for VAG but this joining might not be the best decision long term for any of the brands. But to dump what is your most profitable brand (Audi) would to most business men sound like financial suicide.

Agree wholeheartedly. I can't see VW dumping Audi when the brand is becoming more profitable and more recognized. If in some way Audi gets left in the dust, then wouldn't it be a VW/Porche alliance and then an Audi/Lambo alliance. Would platform sharing cease to exist after that pont? Your opinions.

[RXBG]

it's not that vw won't release audi, it's that porsche will.

but this won't happen until a few years from now. sadly i do think the R8 will have a successor but it won't be under the auspices of the vw brand group. my guess is that audi will be released as a brand. it's possible but i do not see how one company can sustain and differentiate lambo, porsche, and audi sports cars....

[Damienr8]

it's not that vw won't release audi, it's that porsche will.

but this won't happen until a few years from now. sadly i do think the R8 will have a successor but it won't be under the auspices of the vw brand group. my guess is that audi will be released as a brand. it's possible but i do not see how one company can sustain and differentiate lambo, porsche, and audi sports cars....

I don't think I understand what you are saying. "sadly i do think the R8 will have a successor but it won't be under the auspices of the vw brand group." Do you mean that it would not be feasible for a successor of the R8 to be developed by Audi in the future? Do you not think that audi can sustain Lambo if porche dumps audi? Both Audi and Lambo are profitable companies and under Audi's management in the last couple of years, Lambo has seen great profitability. Maybe im not understanding you well:confused:

[Benman]

This thread and the current take over is extremely interesting. I'm reserving judgment for now, but I'm pretty sure we all feel this could have serious implications for Audi down the road... hopefully good ones... time will tell.

Ben:addict:

[Lateknight]

Not sure what to think about this !!

Audi contributes a lot of profit to the group;
see page 17 of this report:
http://www.volkswagen-ir.de/fileadmin/vw-ir2/dokumente/berichte/2006/Interim_Report_Jan-Sept_e2006.pdf
(if they could offload or turnaround lossmaking SEAT they would make a lot more)

Who would buy Audi? Another motor manufacturer... Toyota for example are cash rich, but already have Lexus in their portfolio. Everybody else - exept BMW- is skint (not wealthy).
There is a lot of technology secrets that I am sure Volkswagen (& Porsche) would not want to give away to its competitors. Mercedes would also not be happy considering the recent tie up with the Volkswagen group regarding Bluetec Diesel technology.

The continuation of brand seperation needs to procede further if the 2 brands are to continue together. Component & engine sharing is acceptable, platform sharing is not.
When are Audi going to bring out a RWD platform? Will VW do this first with their 4 door coupe?

Nice to see Audi are commited to investing billions over the next few years to expand the model range (from 22 to 41 ??:confused: )

I dont think Audi are going anywhere soon, but the motor industry is a strange beast and anything can change in a relatively short period of time.

[Leadfoot]

I very much doubt that Porsche will off load VAG's most profitable brand if and when it finally takes control of the group. With VAG's mainstream brands VW is this a very strong brand worldwide in the family sector, Skoda is performing well in the economy sector, Audi is out performing all other brands in it's sector, the only one not doing well is Seat. It's problem I see is that is not distancing itself far enough from the Skoda brand, both are looked on as the cheaper version of VW and Skoda fill that role better, my opinion is that Seat will be the first casualty if the alliance goes ahead.

Next, lets look at the rest of the group, Bentley, Lamborghini and Bugatti. Bentley role is safe, it's selling more than it's main rivals and if they moved into the sub £100K market would complement Porsche's 4dr saloon car being the luxury version. Both Lamborghini and Bugatti are the likely losers in the alliance, especially Bugatti because there really isn't a position in the group for it to fill. But if Seat and Bugatti were the only brands to get off loaded this is how it would look.

Economy Family Sector
Skoda - Rivals (Kia, Suzuki etc.)
Family Sector
VW - Rivals (Ford, Opal, Toyota etc.)
Premium Family Sector
Audi - Rivals (BMW, Merc, Lexus, Jaguar etc.)
Sports Sector
Lamborghini - Rivals (Aston Martin, Ferrari, Pagani etc.)
Luxury Sector
Bentley - Rivals (Rolls Royce, Mercedes S-class etc.)

The only one that really seat on it's own is Porsche. Yes it does have rivals but not one of the above are a direct rival, Porsche sits in a position in the market place where it doesn't have any direct rival brands, BMW has it's M models, Audi has it's RS, Merc has the AMG and Jaguar has the XK but none of them are sportscar manufacturers in the true sense of the word, Ferrari & Lamborghini both are in the market price above, so Porsche shouldn't fear any of them.

But taking control will allow Porsche to decide if Lamborghini will move down market or if Audi will make another R8, these decisions will safe guard the Porsche brand from internal competition while allowing them to gain technologies and parts sharing to a whole new level and increase it's profits even farther.

[Cale24]

I agree with Leadfoot. Ultimately, Wiedeking has done wonders for the Porsche brand, is favoured by Piech and could really help VAG. In my opinion, Seat and Skoda should go, followed later by Bugatti. The remaining brands and cash will make the whole VAG/ Porsche alliance very strong. So long as Audi and VW models dont compete too directly, all bases will be well covered. Cars like the R8 are the only real concern though- Porsche will 'suggest' Audi keep to its RS range of cars, no higher. Lamborghini will sit where they do now, 'above' Porsche to an extent, and even if in the same market, both companies can co-exist as they are such different brands.

[El_cucaracha]

BUgatti has rivals e.g SSC, koeniggseg, Saleen, etc

[Iceman]

Rearwheel drive street Audi's will never happen, Quattro is the game.

Hans.

[tailpipe]

Hans,

You are probably right. But with Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz all using rear-wheel drive platforms, this configuration has become a norm for the category. In fact, i would say that a near 50:500 weight balance is probably a hygiene factor for any competitor. Audi will be at a long-term disadvantage not to incorporate it into its model line-up. I think a resurgent MB and a growing Lexus presence in Europe mandate this.

One factor that could potentially make such a configuration un-necessary would be a front-wheel drive chassis which truly placed the engine behind the front axle - to overcome inherent weight distribution/ steering problems associated with FWD. I thought that this is exactly what the B8 platform would offer. Sure it improves things, but not by the margin i believe is necessary to take-on the great RWD chassis in the category.

Long-term Audi's rather short-sighted strategy may leave it at a disadvantage. I think Porsche probably realises this, hence my previous strong today but what about tomorrow post.

BTW. Weekend newsparers report Porsche has received approval to take its current 27.4% shareholding to 29.9% and it is applying for 4 seats on the VW board not 3. State of Lower Saxony is gearing-up for the Mother of all Proxy fights. Should be interesting. Meanwhile, Ferdinand Piech is being investigated to see whether he is linked to the corruption scandal of a few years back.

[Leadfoot]

That last bit sounds more like an American Presidency campaign between two party leader. It has everything, corruption scandal the lot and all to control the button that will destroy BMW.:jlol:

[Iceman]

Hans,

You are probably right. But with Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz all using rear-wheel drive platforms, this configuration has become a norm for the category. In fact, i would say that a near 50:500 weight balance is probably a hygiene factor for any competitor. Audi will be at a long-term disadvantage not to incorporate it into its model line-up. I think a resurgent MB and a growing Lexus presence in Europe mandate this.
If Audi change to rear wheel drive i can asure you i will never buy a Audi again.
I hate rear wheel drive cars and will never buy one.
For me it is only front wheel drive or Quattro.

Hans.

[Audiphile]

I don't see Audi as a true independent company nor Porsche letting it go. Audi right now has one of the highest capital returns (>10%) in the automotive industry which will surpass that of BMW by next year (11%). It would be a very stupid business decision by Porsche to eliminate so much profit and prestige, not to mention all the technology and advancements that Audi represents. If anything Porsche might move Audi to form more of an Porsche- Audi Group or company than anything else. Winterkorn and Piech basically control the VW Group now with the Porsche CEO reporting to Piech at the end of the day as well. I see having three independent companies within one group. Yes, Porsche will excert influence of the Group, but letting Audi go would be suicidal for Porsche in terms of revenue and prestige.

[Benman]

If Audi change to rear wheel drive i can asure you i will never buy a Audi again.
I hate rear wheel drive cars and will never buy one.
For me it is only front wheel drive or Quattro.

Hans.

I'd have to agree, although for me, Audi is quattro or nothing at all. I have 3 Audis (almost was four :cry:) and they are all quattro.:cheers: No rear wheel drive platforms for me.

Ben:addict:

[Cale24]

I am all for quattro, but am not against RWD platforms either. Sometimes RWD makes sense , and I would not hold it against Audi if they adopted this for some models, although I doubt it will happen. I for one am not a fan of FWD cars, at least in terms of having fun. Look at Alfa- FWD and Q4, yet the new limited production 8C car is RWD- the first such Alfa in yeeaars. True, its basically a Maserati driveline but still- will people be upset? No way. If Audi ever do a RWD car, the Porsche connection will be pretty sweet indeed. Also, look at the RS4's rear wheel drive bias- conceeding defeat somewhat? (in the most extreme sense). As long as the car drives better than the rest, I'm happy.

[Damienr8]

I am all for quattro, but am not against RWD platforms either. Sometimes RWD makes sense , and I would not hold it against Audi if they adopted this for some models, although I doubt it will happen. I for one am not a fan of FWD cars, at least in terms of having fun. Look at Alfa- FWD and Q4, yet the new limited production 8C car is RWD- the first such Alfa in yeeaars. True, its basically a Maserati driveline but still- will people be upset? No way. If Audi ever do a RWD car, the Porsche connection will be pretty sweet indeed. Also, look at the RS4's rear wheel drive bias- conceeding defeat somewhat? (in the most extreme sense). As long as the car drives better than the rest, I'm happy.

I agree. Even though I will not purchase an Audi unless its Quattro (due to the climate I live in), I am not against rear wheel drive platforms. In fact, I would love if Audi switched from a front wheel drive lineup to an RWD lineup. Even though this would not please me, i bet alot of RWD fans will enjoy it. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Quattro system based on a FWD platform. If this is true and Audi wants to adopt RWD, wouldn't they have to modify their quattro system? I would think they can change the quattro system to adopt a "true" RWD starting platform, or they can leave it as it is and just introduce a RWD version of their model lineup. Im all for either decision.

Humm, i think were getting off topic now lol. :trash:

[chewym]

The recent Car and Driver test had the S6 outhandle the BMW M5 and MB E63 (on identical tires) most likely because of Quattro. But Quattro did hurt the S6 in the weight category as it was much heavier than the M5 or E63.

[Audiphile]

S6 lost only by a point (and a dubios one at that) to the MB. However, in the substance dept. the S6 was a clear winner.

[SuperstarDriver]

AUDI WILL NEVER EVER HAVE RWD!!!Has everyone UNDERSTOOD THAT?!Or i should explain...AUDI=QUATTRO=4WD and WILL NEVER BUILT A CAR WITH RWD!In 5-10 years from now ABSOLUTELY ALL THE AUDI VECHICLES WILL BE EQUIPED WITH SUPER ADVANCED QUATTRO (TORSEN 4 I THINK) like the R8 (70-30 B/F) AND THAT'S IT!AUDI IS AN EXTREME SPORTCARS MAKERS AND DO NOT WANT DERAPATIONS IN CURVES, THEY WANT SUPER SPEEDY CARS WITH THE BEST CONTROL IN THE WORLD...you are a fan of AUDI and you don't know that?You could ask Winterkorn what he said about on a conference about RWD...IT'S A BIG BULLSHIT!
By the way FWD si WAY BETTER THAN THE RWD...take a car with 200HP and FWD for example and the other car with the same amount of power but with RWD...what car will be the fastest?of course the car with FWD because of more eficiency and only subviration not supraviration like RWD!That's a leason boy...AUDI WILL NEVER FAIL IN COMPARATION WITH MB & BMW!AUDI MEANS CONTROL IN SPEED!QUATTRO...

[Damienr8]

AUDI WILL NEVER EVER HAVE RWD!!!Has everyone UNDERSTOOD THAT?!Or i should explain...AUDI=QUATTRO=4WD and WILL NEVER BUILT A CAR WITH RWD!In 5-10 years from now ABSOLUTELY ALL THE AUDI VECHICLES WILL BE EQUIPED WITH SUPER ADVANCED QUATTRO (TORSEN 4 I THINK) like the R8 (70-30 B/F) AND THAT'S IT!AUDI IS AN EXTREME SPORTCARS MAKERS AND DO NOT WANT DERAPATIONS IN CURVES, THEY WANT SUPER SPEEDY CARS WITH THE BEST CONTROL IN THE WORLD...you are a fan of AUDI and you don't know that?You could ask Winterkorn what he said about on a conference about RWD...IT'S A BIG BULLSHIT!
By the way FWD si WAY BETTER THAN THE RWD...take a car with 200HP and FWD for example and the other car with the same amount of power but with RWD...what car will be the fastest?of course the car with FWD because of more eficiency and only subviration not supraviration like RWD!That's a leason boy...AUDI WILL NEVER FAIL IN COMPARATION WITH MB & BMW!AUDI MEANS CONTROL IN SPEED!QUATTRO...

I am obviously an audi fan but your post is all over the place. Who knows what can happen in the next 5-10 years. Whats to say Audi would drop FWD and create not only RWD models but modify its future quattro systems to be based on a RWD platform.

"Winterkorn what he said about on a conference about RWD...IT'S A BIG BULLSHIT!" - I doubt he said that

"By the way FWD si WAY BETTER THAN THE RWD...take a car with 200HP and FWD for example and the other car with the same amount of power but with RWD...what car will be the fastest?of course the car with FWD because of more eficiency and only subviration not supraviration like RWD"

-Your reasoning not only lacks merit, but lacks weight as well.

[Lateknight]

AUDI WILL NEVER EVER HAVE RWD!!!Has everyone UNDERSTOOD THAT?!Or i should explain...AUDI=QUATTRO=4WD and WILL NEVER BUILT A CAR WITH RWD!In 5-10 years from now ABSOLUTELY ALL THE AUDI VECHICLES WILL BE EQUIPED WITH SUPER ADVANCED QUATTRO (TORSEN 4 I THINK) like the R8 (70-30 B/F) AND THAT'S IT!AUDI IS AN EXTREME SPORTCARS MAKERS AND DO NOT WANT DERAPATIONS IN CURVES, THEY WANT SUPER SPEEDY CARS WITH THE BEST CONTROL IN THE WORLD...you are a fan of AUDI and you don't know that?You could ask Winterkorn what he said about on a conference about RWD...IT'S A BIG BULLSHIT!
By the way FWD si WAY BETTER THAN THE RWD...take a car with 200HP and FWD for example and the other car with the same amount of power but with RWD...what car will be the fastest?of course the car with FWD because of more eficiency and only subviration not supraviration like RWD!That's a leason boy...AUDI WILL NEVER FAIL IN COMPARATION WITH MB & BMW!AUDI MEANS CONTROL IN SPEED!QUATTRO...

Why is it you have no idea what your talking about ??

Why would you post an obviously ill-informed post like the above.:noshake:

(please ignore this if you are less than 12 years old)

[Cale24]

I agree with the above two replies. What a clown- barking out unsubstantiated CAPS LOCK crap AT us. Happy cycling, kid.

[Leadfoot]

Guys, don't be too hard on him. At least he does have his priorities right with Audi being the best.

[Benman]

Guys, don't be too hard on him. At least he does have his priorities right with Audi being the best.:thumb:

I think SuperstarDriver has discovered coffee, that's all. Too much does that to your typing.

As for his comments about the 200hp rwd vs fwd, he actually does have apoint. At the track, out of all the 2.0 class cars, the fwd ones tend to crush the rwd around the track. The low powered/lightweight cars crave efficiency over dynamics. Bottom line, the Integra Type Rs win over the 328s every time. I've yet to see a base BMW at our track win. Yes, the occasional 510 that shows up does very well, but the Type Rs still crush them. More power can afford drivetrain loss, but small power does well with well researched fwd platform. Why do you think the Mini Cooper S by BMW does so well in comparos?

Ben:addict:

[SuperstarDriver]

FWD is way better than RWD...is the fact not a crap made by me!Quattro 4WD from the new R8 is the best Audi came with in the last 26 years (look at the Gallardo drivetrain and what he can do on a racetrack and compare it to Ferrari F430 ho has RWD)...Gallardo kicks it very easy because of 70/30 4WD system and of course is a car made by Audi (a care made bay the best premium sportscars in the world)...i will say again that i beat BMW M5 with a friend's RS4 very easly but not anybody could drive the RS4 like it should be drived so what a part of you saw on the youtobe.com is a big crap....RS4 with a good driver could beat ANY BMW including the fastest M6 and that's a fact and a reality!You do not know what is capabile RS4 before you drive it to believe it...It's the best car 4 doors TopGear has ever drived("car of the moment they say"), the new TT (TopGear car of the year) and more and more of that...the fastest car on their circuit(Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 quicker even then the Pagani Zonda F-made exclusively by Carbon Fiber) so...Audi will built AGAIN the fastest 4 door saloon in the world...the new RS6....has anyone drived the new S6?I did...and i was amazed what you can do with that car...and that's only a half of performances the new RS6 will have!By the way...i talked with the big boss of Audi Romania in Bucharest and he was very sure that the Audi range will never have RWD only Quattro 4WD and in the next future (like a said before) all the cars Audi will built will have in standard Quattro...and that he heard on a press conference dictated by Winterkorn before he slipped away to VW management!Don't worry that's no sugar...just power in control=QUATTRO!

[SFW]

FWD is way better than RWD...is the fact not a crap made by me!Quattro 4WD from the new R8 is the best Audi came with in the last 26 years (look at the Gallardo drivetrain and what he can do on a racetrack and compare it to Ferrari F430 ho has RWD)...Gallardo kicks it very easy because of 70/30 4WD system and of course is a car made by Audi (a care made bay the best premium sportscars in the world)...i will say again that i beat BMW M5 with a friend's RS4 very easly but not anybody could drive the RS4 like it should be drived so what a part of you saw on the youtobe.com is a big crap....RS4 with a good driver could beat ANY BMW including the fastest M6 and that's a fact and a reality!You do not know what is capabile RS4 before you drive it to believe it...It's the best car 4 doors TopGear has ever drived("car of the moment they say"), the new TT (TopGear car of the year) and more and more of that...the fastest car on their circuit(Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 quicker even then the Pagani Zonda F-made exclusively by Carbon Fiber) so...Audi will built AGAIN the fastest 4 door saloon in the world...the new RS6....has anyone drived the new S6?I did...and i was amazed what you can do with that car...and that's only a half of performances the new RS6 will have!By the way...i talked with the big boss of Audi Romania in Bucharest and he was very sure that the Audi range will never have RWD only Quattro 4WD and in the next future (like a said before) all the cars Audi will built will have in standard Quattro...and that he heard on a press conference dictated by Winterkorn before he slipped away to VW management!Don't worry that's no sugar...just power in control=QUATTRO!


I was almost sure that you are from Romania (as I am to), from you're enthusiasm, and the belive that you know everything, and mostly, youre confidence that you are one of the few who drove the rs4 and the S6, but If you study this forum, you will see that things are not like you think, that many of the members have -rs- cars, and also, that they have the insight on the audi company ... (but still don't argue like little some kids, when someone has a different opinion)

Be calm, post with respect, like all the other users do ... :thumb:

[Leadfoot]

We all know that if the power is below a level that fwd is quicker than rwd and awd if it comes to it but these are not the reasons why people choose what they do.

As for Audi developing the R8's quattro system, BS, this system has been on the go in Lambos for over 8years now since the Diablo went awd and to the best of my knowledge the system is not compatible with front engined lay-outs as it was designed for mid-mount.

As for the RS6, you are 100% right that it will be the daddy of all the super saloons.

[tailpipe]

In February's edition of Britain's Car Magazine, there is a feature on the new Porsche Panamera. As I am sure you all know, this is Porsche's take on a 4-door coupe a la Mercedes-Benz CLS. The images shown, although they are computer-aided renderings, suggest that this will be a sensational looking car. While the Panamera is still 2 years away from production, Porsche has just released an updated Cayenne, an entry-level Cayman and the latest incarnation of the 911 in GT3 form.

Let's compare these cars to Audi's line-up for a moment:


Porsche Panamera: Audi S8/ Audi S6 Saloon
Porsche Cayenne: Audi Q7/ Audi S6 Avant
Porsche Cayman: Audi TT Coupe
Porsche Boxter: Audi TT Convertible
Porsche 911: Audi R8

In each case, Porsche sells its cars for a significantly higher price than the equivalent Audi and makes a larger amount of profit. That's today. But Porsche recognizes that it needs to diversify its product range for the future. I would imagine that a junior Cayenne is on the drawing board as well as a true mid-engined replacement for the 911. The Junior Cayenne is likely to be based on Volkswagen's junior Touareg. Ultimately, Porsche may opt for a seven-model line-up:


High-end halo-effect supercar model: Carrera GT
4-door coupe: Panamera
2+2 sports car: 911
2-seater sports car: Cayman
2-seater convertible: Boxter
Large SUV: Cayenne
Mid-level SUV: Cayenne Junior

It is even possible that Porsche could ape Lexus's model strategy and produce a junior saloon. Whether this happens or not, if Porsche and VW were to merge, then Porsche would almost certainly lend its name and expertise to produce a super-hot version of the Golf GTI.

Overall, Volkswagen's product range complements Porsche's perfectly, just as that of Lexus complements Toyota's. Porsche will never produce a Golf or Sharan or Polo or Passat. However, the platform architecture of most Volkswagen models makes an ideal start point for new Porsche models, dramatically reducing new vehicle development costs.

While Porsche models directly compete with Audi's high-end sports models, Audi's standard offerings, the A4 and A3, compete with Volkswagen's. The A4 kills the Passat and the A3 kills the Golf. The product overlap is extraordinary in the extent to which Audi takes market share away from VW. In one sense this is a good thing, because Audis sell for a higher price. But as Audi has increased sales, VW has become a lost soul: neither entry level or premium. Its value proposition has been eroded by Audi. Volkswagen's volumes are declining and VW absolutely depends on volumes. In terms of volumes, as of this moment VW is still a much more powerful brand than Audi. VW used to sell 4 Golfs for every A3 sold. Now it is approaching parity.

It is also worth noting the overlap between the A8 and the Bentley Continantal Flying Spur and Phaeton. So, what I'm saying is that the real issue with product overlap isn't the damage Porsche and Audi do to each other by cannibalising sales, but the damage Audi does to Volkswagen. This is why Martin Winterkorn has been put in charge of the Group. He has a real problem to fix.

Solving it requires some form of separation between the two brands. One way to differentiate Audi from VW to move to a rear-wheel drive platform for non-Quattro models. Despite Iceman's protestations that he would never buy a a RWD Audi, he may have no choice. As I already said, RWD has become a de facto standard in the premium categories. The incredible success of latest 3-Series, Lexus IS and prospect of new Mercedes-Benz C-Class that is a scaled-down version of the S-Class, means that this model class has become the most competitive. Audi could lose market share as MB quality recovers and Lexus' aggressive pricing strategy begin to bite. The next A4 will be compared to new C-Class. If it isn't in an equivalent dynamic class, then the motoring press will write it off, especially if its expensive which new Audis increasingly are.

As for the debate about FWD versus RWD, it isn't about the reality of driving expereince but the perception created by the makers of each type of car. BMW has done a great job of convincing the world that driving pleasure comes from RWD. While Audi has done a good job of convincing the world that it AWD provides surefooted year-round roadholding, it has failed to translate this into an emotional benefit that engages people to the same extent as BMW's ultimate driving machine. (Before I get flamed out of existence, I am not a pro-BMW supporter, it is just that sales volumes, particularly in the US market of BMW versus Audi speak volumes: BMW kills Audi in North America.)

As Audi expands its line-up into every product niche, product overlap will get worse not better. For all these reasons, I think it makes sense for Audi to become an independent company once again.

[SuperstarDriver]

RS6 will be not only daddy of al supersaloons but it will make the drivers of M5 crying and begging for mercy when they will be easly left behind!i just wait that...for me march 2007 is the most important month of the year because the new RS6 will demonstrate shittie drivers with BMW's that i hate most (because they believe are the center of the earth and the fastest drivers around because they have bmw's but in reality are a little shittie ugly guys with no passion for nothing...passion for stupidity at highest levels, passion for voluntary destroying the tires in front of everybody and they think are "cool") and i just wait to kick theirs asses with RS6...to learn to respect Audi like the best performance sportscars in the world...M5 and M6 are eated by RS4,R8 and the new RS6...i don't wanna say what would happen when the new RS8 will come cause somebody from the management of BMW could have a heart attack:)))i hate stupidy...i don't need a car that has bling...i need the fastest car on the road whit the best traction of all...i need to left ANYONE behind on the intersections before they realise that don't have a chance...i hate people who drive a expensive sportscar and drive them to boulevards at speeds very cruel like 50-60km/h just to be in the center of the girls...for all that don't know in Romania who has a car that cost a lot is more likely to be with the hottest girl around just because he has that car, even if the driver is a ugly fattie stupid 40 years old man...that's romania...that's "culture" for most of the people who don't have brains....by the way they could get a car super bling bling with a little performance with diamonds around it to do that not a sportscar which is heavly drived on limited speeds like it won't meant to be driven...offfff

[Damienr8]

RS6 will be not only daddy of al supersaloons but it will make the drivers of M5 crying and begging for mercy when they will be easly left behind!i just wait that...for me march 2007 is the most important month of the year because the new RS6 will demonstrate shittie drivers with BMW's that i hate most (because they believe are the center of the earth and the fastest drivers around because they have bmw's but in reality are a little shittie ugly guys with no passion for nothing...passion for stupidity at highest levels, passion for voluntary destroying the tires in front of everybody and they think are "cool") and i just wait to kick theirs asses with RS6...to learn to respect Audi like the best performance sportscars in the world...M5 and M6 are eated by RS4,R8 and the new RS6...i don't wanna say what would happen when the new RS8 will come cause somebody from the management of BMW could have a heart attack:)))i hate stupidy...i don't need a car that has bling...i need the fastest car on the road whit the best traction of all...i need to left ANYONE behind on the intersections before they realise that don't have a chance...i hate people who drive a expensive sportscar and drive them to boulevards at speeds very cruel like 50-60km/h just to be in the center of the girls...for all that don't know in Romania who has a car that cost a lot is more likely to be with the hottest girl around just because he has that car, even if the driver is a ugly fattie stupid 40 years old man...that's romania...that's "culture" for most of the people who don't have brains....by the way they could get a car super bling bling with a little performance with diamonds around it to do that not a sportscar which is heavly drived on limited speeds like it won't meant to be driven...offfff

While I admire your passion for Audi, these posts are becoming :vhmmm:

[SuperstarDriver]

sportscars=speeds=fast corners=fast drivers and not equalls fattie drivers, stupid drivers, lasy drivers, cruel drivers who don't appreciate the car!audi is meant to be driven at the highest limits...even if it is an simply 1.6FSI mounted on an A4...if you want only luxury look in another place...how could it look R8 speeding in the limits of the law?CRUEL...very CRUEL...for all!

[Benman]

While I admire your passion for Audi, these posts are becoming :vhmmm:

Yes, it would seem SuperstarDriver is a raging Anti-BMW biggot. :D Welcome aboard! :dig:

Seriously though... We are all Audi fans, but are giving constructive criticism, nothing more, nothing less.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Audiphile]

Superstardriver is definitely anti-BMW:cheers: Though, I do not understand some the points he is trying to get at:vhmmm: I like his passion for Audi:D

[chewym]

The mini Cayenne would not be based on the VW mini Touareg the Tiguan as that is based on the Golf. If it comes out it would be based on the Audi Q5. But somehow I doubt that Porsche will make another smaller SUV, a smallish sedan. Plus, if Porsche made a smallish sedan it would cost as much as the RS4 but most likely come up short. And I doubt there will be a replacement for the 911, that thing is classic here in the states and I sure lots of Porsche sales come from here. I also hope that Porsche doesn't make all the cars that you mentioned. And if it does there will be backlash, but of course people would still buy them because it is a Porsche. I sure hope that Porsche fails if it makes all of those cars. As I see it so far the relationship has been very beneficial to Porsche but Audi and VW have yet to get anything. Porsche can start by giving their new 4.8-liter V8 to Audi.

[SuperstarDriver]

yes i'm anti-BMW cause i think they don't desirve their money cause of the designs,quality of the interior,engines sounds,RWD(M3,Z4 M,M5,M6) and those uncool equipment...head-up display?ha...audi don't need that cause you can EASLY DRIVE IN SAFE IN A AUDI...but in BMW you don't...very supraviration cars...no feeling, no good handling, no nothing for me...!
by the way Porsche could give the new 4,8l engine to Audi for the A5 and Q5 but in the future not this year...

[Cale24]

BMWs design is a matter of taste (or perhaps lack of it in some cases) but to say they sound bad (M3; M5; M6?? sounds good to most people) and don't handle well is simply incorrect. And a head-up display will be in Audis aswell as other cars in time...I'd love to have one. Its one thing to be an Audi fan, but give respect where its due.

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe,

Why are under the opinion that if or when Porsche take control of VAG that they will off-load Audi. Audi is the one Brand under the umbrella that is making good profits unlike VW itself, VW's problem is not that Audi are stealing sales but the cheaper Brands like Seat and Skoda. Lets face it, it's more than likely that it takes very little more to build a VW Golf than it does a Leon etc. but these models are being sold at least 15% less RRP.

Porsche isn't stupid, they are no more likely to ditch the group's biggest profit maker just because it's range overlaps VW's. In my opinion there is a bigger chance that they will ditch the dead wood and move VW into a market price lower than it is currently in and make a bigger gap between it and Audi.

But hey I am only one person's opinion and not a chairman of the most profitable car companies in the world, who knows what they will do.

[Benman]

Superstardriver is definitely anti-BMW:cheers: Though, I do not understand some the points he is trying to get at:vhmmm: I like his passion for Audi:D


Very true.

I am very anti-BMW, but will freely admit their cars do handle well at the limit. Yes, they are not as "foolproof" to drive as quattro cars, but very well engineered. To say otherwise may show just a touch of brand blindness. That said, I'll never own one. :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Lateknight]

Tailpipe,

Why are under the opinion that if or when Porsche take control of VAG that they will off-load Audi. Audi is the one Brand under the umbrella that is making good profits unlike VW itself, VW's problem is not that Audi are stealing sales but the cheaper Brands like Seat and Skoda. Lets face it, it's more than likely that it takes very little more to build a VW Golf than it does a Leon etc. but these models are being sold at least 15% less RRP.

Porsche isn't stupid, they are no more likely to ditch the group's biggest profit maker just because it's range overlaps VW's. In my opinion there is a bigger chance that they will ditch the dead wood and move VW into a market price lower than it is currently in and make a bigger gap between it and Audi.

But hey I am only one person's opinion and not a chairman of the most profitable car companies in the world, who knows what they will do.

Some good points.
Up until a couple of weeks ago, I also would have considered a for sale sign over Ingoldstat a possibility.

Thankfully, the recent announcement of billions of euros in development funds for Audi has allayed those fears.

What happens to the rest of the group is another matter.
Seat is a head scratcher :vhmmm: - this should be made more sporty. Lets have something similar to the Tango roadster concept made, and perhaps a vehicle based on the new Audi MLB platform. After all SEAT was originally intended for young buyers as a stepping stone to Audi.
Skoda seems to be doing alright.
Volkswagen need to produce their cars cheaper without hurting quality. German labour (labor) costs are not helping this. Like for like VWs are costing as much as Audis to build. Pricing them cheaper would just cut into margins - already thin. The VW badge is still more desireable than the equivalent Ford or Vauxhall (Opel), so should command a small premium.

What will actually happen is anybodys guess.
As long as boardroom egos / politics dont overrule, I think the Group is in safe hands for the imminent future.

[tailpipe]

Tailpipe,

Why are under the opinion that if or when Porsche take control of VAG that they will off-load Audi. Audi is the one Brand under the umbrella that is making good profits unlike VW itself, VW's problem is not that Audi are stealing sales but the cheaper Brands like Seat and Skoda. Lets face it, it's more than likely that it takes very little more to build a VW Golf than it does a Leon etc. but these models are being sold at least 15% less RRP.

Porsche isn't stupid, they are no more likely to ditch the group's biggest profit maker just because it's range overlaps VW's. In my opinion there is a bigger chance that they will ditch the dead wood and move VW into a market price lower than it is currently in and make a bigger gap between it and Audi.

But hey I am only one person's opinion and not a chairman of the most profitable car companies in the world, who knows what they will do.

It's not my opinion but simply what i've heard from a usually reliable inside source, who let his guard down when asked an unexpected question. The thinking is that Audi is killling VW, but ultimately VW is the stronger of the two brands. In order to achieve lower build costs, and greater differentiation, VW needs to completely rethink how it builds cars. It needs money to do that. Selling Audi would give VW the resources it needs.

Actually, it wouldn't be a complete sell-off, its simply allowing Audi to pursue its own agenda unhindered by VW. VW-Porsche would still own a sizable chunk of Audi, but it would be a separate financial entity.

We'll see soon enough. Next step is Porsche taking majority control in about April.

[chewym]

I don't know, Audi and VW with the next generation of vehicles will share alomst nothing. Almost all Audis will be built on one common Audi platform, and almost all VW are/will be built on one common VW platform. You can already see it hapening right now with Golf/Jetta/Passat/Touran/Tiguan/Golf Plus/Eos all built on one platform or with slight modifications. As for Audi the A4/A5/Q5/A6/A8 will all be built on one common platform with some modifications. Doesn't look like the two are really competing anymore. The only products related will be the A3 (Golf) and the Q7 (Touareg/Cayenne) Of course some engines might be shared as well. I am not sure how VW has to rethink how it builds it cars, it looks like it has abandoned its march up market.

[Lateknight]

It's not my opinion but simply what i've heard from a usually reliable inside source, who let his guard down when asked an unexpected question. The thinking is that Audi is killling VW,

We'll see soon enough. Next step is Porsche taking majority control in about April.

Maybe that Audi do tread on the toes of Volkswagen a bit, but according to the latest investor reports, :boring: Volkswagens increase in production from 2005 to 2006 was a lot higher than Audis. (Just in the UK alone VW had a record 2006, with over 190,000 units sold & over 8% market share - putting them 3rd behind Ford & Vauxhall for the 1st time)
So they are building enough cars, just not making enough money on each one of them. The U.S and Asian markets are not helping Volkswagens balance sheet here, they do lose money in each of these markets.

At least the cars are starting to become more individual. The Passat no longer shares genes with the A4. The Q7 isn't a virtual photocopy of the Touareg.
Audi are not tempted to plaster the A3 in crap looking black plastic wheel arches, raise the suspension by 2 inches and call it something crap like 'crossA3' or 'A3 Fun' (for god sake why did Volkswagen?:w: ), just to corner a market that doesn't exist.
The only bummer for VW is that they have 'shot their wad' (to coin a phrase) in that they have very little new models to release in 2007. Anybody want a faux off roader or Golf Estate ??:noshake:

Hopefully Porsche will be of help to the group as a whole. They themselves had help from the 'best in the business' - Toyota - a few years ago, so I expect there will be increases in production efficiency, but hopefully not at the expense of quality. :thumb:

[Lateknight]

it looks like it has abandoned its march up market.

Not yet it hasn't - they are to build a 4 door coupe - CLS/Panamera type car.

It has already been seen in the metal at a Retailers meeting in Germany back in October last year. They said it was scheduled for production in 2008/2009.

What I cannot find out though is whether it will be related in some way to the forthcoming Panamera.

[chewym]

Not yet it hasn't - they are to build a 4 door coupe - CLS/Panamera type car.

It has already been seen in the metal at a Retailers meeting in Germany back in October last year. They said it was scheduled for production in 2008/2009.

What I cannot find out though is whether it will be related in some way to the forthcoming Panamera.

I doubt, I am sure the Passat 4 door coupe will be made on the existing VW Passat platform which it self is a lengthened Golf platform. Any one who buys a Porsche 100,000+ car that is built on a Golf platform ...

But I think the two are likely to share the 3.6 VW V6, maybe turbocharged?

[Leadfoot]

Why do you believe that the Porsche Panamera will be based on the Passat Coupe, if anything I reckon it will be based around the future A7, both models would be about the same length and both would be using the same engine/transmission combination with the Audi being awd and the Porsche rwd. It would be the logical choice of any to be developed together as a cost saving exercise.

[Lateknight]

I was under the impression this was not a 'Passat Coupe', but an entirely different model to fit between Passat and Phaeton.
If it is based on a passat platform (or a stretched Golf platform as chewym rightly stated) it deserves to bomb.:(
Coupe my arse - more like a sleeker LWB passat saloon. (IMO)

Gonna dig for more info.

[chewym]

The Passat Coupe Concept is set for Geneva debut, with pictures out a bit earlier. A thread about future VWs/concepts and why they didn't have anyting @ detroit.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3016826

[SuperstarDriver]

BMW sounds like high grade voices...AUDI sounds like a big BASS down to our soul...i like the sound of Porsche,of MB but not BMW...
for example did anyone compared the sound of the engine of RS4 vs M6?I did...and i was amazed how different sounds the RS4...so much power in my ears...the M6...was just a wind blow in my ears, that was all...this test was made face 2 face in front of other people who actually feel the difference between the full sound of RS4 and the middle-high tone of M6...people liked more...the RS4 sound...so:))
by the way guys:like Clarkson says...BMW are extremely ugly cars(since the Bangle era)...he said about M5 the new 3 series and series 1 that are so ugly that he couldn't look at them more then 3sec...the back of the 3 series he makes him vomiting, series 1 is the most ugly car in the world by him and the M5 and of course 5 series is likely to name it the most unbelievable ungly car of the year...the only one who actually looks nice(that's it...just nice) is the M6 but the interior is so nasty...all of BMW interiors are nasty, bad quality of materials vs MB and AUDI(who we all know that all the magazines in the world said that they use the best materials in the world and the best ansambly) so...BMW reallllllly sucks...hate those cars...i prefer MB than BMW to drive day by day...if someone could obligate me to not buy an Audi...

[Lateknight]

!! NEWS FLASH !!

It has been learned today that the RS6.COM contributer going by the name of 'SUPERSTARDRIVER' is NOT a Fan of BMW Automobiles :MTM:

Just to reiterate that point : NOT a fan of BMWs :noshake:

A further report will be made when we have more information.

[RXBG]

Porsche wants to partner with, not control, VW


By DIANA T. KURYLKO | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

AutoWeek | Published 01/10/07, 10:37 am et

DETROIT -- Volkswagen AG is a gold mine, but "you have to dig day and night," says Porsche AG CEO Wendelin Wiedeking.

With a 27.4 percent stake in VW, Porsche has a major interest -- a 4 billion euro investment, or $5.2 billion at current exchange rates -- in the automaker and stands to benefit from a stock price increase. Porsche is expected to increase its share of VW to 29.9 percent but doesn't want to "take over" Volkswagen or merge, says Wiedeking.

Wiedeking says he won't seek control beyond his responsibilities on the supervisory board. He is lobbying for another Porsche seat on the 20-member board -- the German equivalent of a board of directors. Porsche already has two seats.

"We want to keep Porsche completely independent of all VW brands" says Wiedeking.

But Porsche can benefit from VW's technology and work with the company in areas such as safety and electronics, Wiedeking says.

VW needs to improve its productivity and quality, Wiedeking says. But he says he thinks the automaker one day can rival Toyota Motor Corp.

Wiedeking would not comment on the fate of Wolfgang Bernhard, VW's brand chief. A VW supervisory board meeting today is slated to decide the fate of the executive. VW's future does not depend on an individual but, rather, on a management team, Wiedeking says.

As for the fate of the exotic brands Bugatti and Lamborghini -- which VW acquired under the leadership of former CEO Ferdinand Piech -- Wiedeking says "no toys anymore."

[Lateknight]

Still makes me wonder why Porsche want to take so much of Volkswagen A.G (in shares) but not completely take over it.

Seems like 20 odd percent was enough initially to avoid a hostile take over from a 3rd party company and protect their working relationships. Then they increased to 25, and then 27.4. Now looking at 29.9%.
Were they worried by what Audi and Lambo are doing. Now they have more boardroom influence, will they curtail any more future group products that might clash with their own.



[quote] - Wiedeking says "no toys anymore." :vhmmm:

Hmmm, wonder how far they'll take that. :confused:



[quote]- ..thinks the automaker one day can rival Toyota Motor Corp.

Hopefully without the ultra dull end product.:boring:

[SuperstarDriver]

Porsche wants more of VW A.G. because of their powerfull ideas about the future of the cars and of course for their sales...if if has the 29,9% of VW that means if VW have profit Porsche will get some of it...and we all know that VW sells well...

[Leadfoot]

Lateknight,

To me that means, Bugatti was an expensive folly to make I car that has no future so he wouldn't like to see a repeat of this. As for Lamborghini, maybe he feels that the return isn't worth the expense and effort put into it. But the fact that he said no more toys to me was saying more than just Lamborghini and Bugatti, it was spelling it out plain that each brand should stick to what they are good at, not R8s in other words.

[Lateknight]

Bugatti is a given. - A one off. - An engineering masterpiece it may be, but a car even Porsche themselves wouldn't even consider attempting to build. Piechs last swansong before he upped and left VW.
Not so sure about Lambo. From what your insinuating, Porsche might attempt to dumb down (or even kill off) Lambo ?
Are Lambo going to be included in the 'Toys' category. After all that is all they largely make - (expensive toys ,though)
As far as I know Lambo have healthy order books and are making money now (for the first time in god knows how many owners)
Any replacement for the Murcielago must already be well on the way, given it must be nearing the end of its current models development. So an investment must have already been made. Also The Murci' has no direct rival in the Porsche range (in price at least).

The R8 might be a different story. New territory for the Audi brand. As good a car as WE all may think it is, without wearing Audi blinkers, you have got to admit this car will live and die by its sales. Although the order books are looking good so far. :thumb:
Also, as far as price goes, the R8 does sits smack bang in the middle of 911 money.
99% of potential customers, do not live, eat and breath Audi.
If you questioned a good proportion of these 'normal' people on if they would have an Audi over a Porsche or Aston what do you reckon they would say ?
I'm not trying to bring a downer on the R8 - Audi HAVE pulled out all the stops on this car - It certainly looks amazing, I'm just trying to be realistic from a 'non AudiNut' point of view. How Porsche would view this, just in a purely business sense.
It could be a case of last in, first out. (R8)
I hope not.

[SuperstarDriver]

NO R8's?dreaming boy...AUDI IS AUDI NO QUESTION OF THAT and in the middle future we all know that AUDI will be a single brand developing cars only for AUDI by AUDI and for AUDI FANS...so the question is...is it LAMBO a threat on which AUDI could built in the spoorty era of cars?For me i think it is...because we all know what would happen with Murcielago LP640 if Audi will built exactly this year not in 2008-2009 the R8 with 610HP like in concept(because we all know that the R8 is the most advanced supercar in the world and with magnetic ride,ceramic brakes and the engine from LE MANS Concept could kill Lambo instantly for sure...but no...Lamborghini is a SUPERSTAR brand...a brand of all brands in motorsports and of course a SYMBOL of AUDI...i would never want to get read off the LAMBO company but if this could be the way to kill DEFINETIVELY BMW HIGH M POWER CARS it will get this...AUDI IS LIKE A CANDY, YOU STUCK WITH IT UNTIL IT MELTS AND YOU WANT MORE AND MORE...
If someone believe that MB or BMW is more likely to beat AUDI on sportscars let's hear it...cause we all know if LAMBO would not be part of AUDI, Audi brand could make history every month of the year...we could hear like this:THE NEW HIGH-PERFORMANCE RS4 from Audi has 550HP, the new RS6 from Audi has 700HP and the new RS8 from Audi has 850HP...we shall hear something like this...don't you remember what did Audi in the late '90?the AVUS QUATTRO CONCEPT who actually beats even the new Ferrari Enzo even today?3,4s to 100 for a car of the year 1992?WHERE WAS FERRARI THEN?WHAT DID FERRARI?NOTHING COMPARED TO AUDI...AUDI IS THE BEST WE CAN DREAM,GET,FEEL,TOUCH,etc...LAMBORGHINI IS EVEN AN UPPER DREAM and i just wait to high up the engines on Lambo to get more power on Audi to kick BMW so powerfull that will never could say a word against AUDI A.G. SUPERCARS!!!Quattro G.M.B.H. rules....

[Damienr8]

NO R8's?dreaming boy...AUDI IS AUDI NO QUESTION OF THAT and in the middle future we all know that AUDI will be a single brand developing cars only for AUDI by AUDI and for AUDI FANS...so the question is...is it LAMBO a threat on which AUDI could built in the spoorty era of cars?For me i think it is...because we all know what would happen with Murcielago LP640 if Audi will built exactly this year not in 2008-2009 the R8 with 610HP like in concept(because we all know that the R8 is the most advanced supercar in the world and with magnetic ride,ceramic brakes and the engine from LE MANS Concept could kill Lambo instantly for sure...but no...Lamborghini is a SUPERSTAR brand...a brand of all brands in motorsports and of course a SYMBOL of AUDI...i would never want to get read off the LAMBO company but if this could be the way to kill DEFINETIVELY BMW HIGH M POWER CARS it will get this...AUDI IS LIKE A CANDY, YOU STUCK WITH IT UNTIL IT MELTS AND YOU WANT MORE AND MORE...
If someone believe that MB or BMW is more likely to beat AUDI on sportscars let's hear it...cause we all know if LAMBO would not be part of AUDI, Audi brand could make history every month of the year...we could hear like this:THE NEW HIGH-PERFORMANCE RS4 from Audi has 550HP, the new RS6 from Audi has 700HP and the new RS8 from Audi has 850HP...we shall hear something like this...don't you remember what did Audi in the late '90?the AVUS QUATTRO CONCEPT who actually beats even the new Ferrari Enzo even today?3,4s to 100 for a car of the year 1992?WHERE WAS FERRARI THEN?WHAT DID FERRARI?NOTHING COMPARED TO AUDI...AUDI IS THE BEST WE CAN DREAM,GET,FEEL,TOUCH,etc...LAMBORGHINI IS EVEN AN UPPER DREAM and i just wait to high up the engines on Lambo to get more power on Audi to kick BMW so powerfull that will never could say a word against AUDI A.G. SUPERCARS!!!Quattro G.M.B.H. rules....

Superstar I love your Posts, they brighten my day. :jlol:

[Leadfoot]

Bugatti is a given. - A one off. - An engineering masterpiece it may be, but a car even Porsche themselves wouldn't even consider attempting to build. Piechs last swansong before he upped and left VW.
Not so sure about Lambo. From what your insinuating, Porsche might attempt to dumb down (or even kill off) Lambo ?
Are Lambo going to be included in the 'Toys' category. After all that is all they largely make - (expensive toys ,though)
As far as I know Lambo have healthy order books and are making money now (for the first time in god knows how many owners)
Any replacement for the Murcielago must already be well on the way, given it must be nearing the end of its current models development. So an investment must have already been made. Also The Murci' has no direct rival in the Porsche range (in price at least).

The R8 might be a different story. New territory for the Audi brand. As good a car as WE all may think it is, without wearing Audi blinkers, you have got to admit this car will live and die by its sales. Although the order books are looking good so far. :thumb:
Also, as far as price goes, the R8 does sits smack bang in the middle of 911 money.
99% of potential customers, do not live, eat and breath Audi.
If you questioned a good proportion of these 'normal' people on if they would have an Audi over a Porsche or Aston what do you reckon they would say ?
I'm not trying to bring a downer on the R8 - Audi HAVE pulled out all the stops on this car - It certainly looks amazing, I'm just trying to be realistic from a 'non AudiNut' point of view. How Porsche would view this, just in a purely business sense.
It could be a case of last in, first out. (R8)
I hope not.

I know that Lamborghini is now making money but that was only achieved under stricter controls from Audi and their money and input in all areas of manufacture. Now that Lambo is in a way going it on it own with no Audi money we will have to see if they can keep their head above water. But I wonder if VAG's purchase of Lamborghini was a little like BMW's of LandRover, BMW gained all of development for the X5 and Audi have gain the R8. Was this Audi's intention all a long, who knows.

I also couldn't agree more with your view on the R8's success, though there is no doubt it deserves it. To answer your question of what would people choose Audi R8 or 997, I say if it had another badge on the bonnet, maybe Porsche or Ferrari it's success would have been assured. I think if it is a sales success and easily meets it's targets, then there will be calls for a successor, but if not I believe it maybe be butchered to produce a successor to the Porsche 99?.The only plus side is that it will have Audi's quality and reliability which do count for a lot specially State side who do like quality produce and classy things and are not swayed by heritage of Brands like we are here in Europe, lets face it they do love the Lexus even more than Mercedes.

Lets talk about the 911 for a minute, I don't think Porsche will ever be able to kill off the rear-engined 911, though I do think that in the future it's roll will move more to the level that the Cayman now has with a new mid-engined supercar 2 seater filling the space left behind.

[tailpipe]

Lambo sales are declining quickly. Both Murcielago and Gallardo depreciate very quickly. So the long term strength of the brand is debatable. Audi was manufacturing Lambos at their Neckarsulm factory, but realising that overall demand was limited decided to use this facility for the R8 - remember that R8 is essentially a V8 version of the Gallardo. Smart move.

[Damienr8]

I know that Lamborghini is now making money but that was only achieved under stricter controls from Audi and their money and input in all areas of manufacture. Now that Lambo is in a way going it on it own with no Audi money we will have to see if they can keep their head above water. But I wonder if VAG's purchase of Lamborghini was a little like BMW's of LandRover, BMW gained all of development for the X5 and Audi have gain the R8. Was this Audi's intention all a long, who knows.

I also couldn't agree more with your view on the R8's success, though there is no doubt it deserves it. To answer your question of what would people choose Audi R8 or 997, I say if it had another badge on the bonnet, maybe Porsche or Ferrari it's success would have been assured. I think if it is a sales success and easily meets it's targets, then there will be calls for a successor, but if not I believe it maybe be butchered to produce a successor to the Porsche 99?.The only plus side is that it will have Audi's quality and reliability which do count for a lot specially State side who do like quality produce and classy things and are not swayed by heritage of Brands like we are here in Europe, lets face it they do love the Lexus even more than Mercedes.

Lets talk about the 911 for a minute, I don't think Porsche will ever be able to kill off the rear-engined 911, though I do think that in the future it's roll will move more to the level that the Cayman now has with a new mid-engined supercar 2 seater filling the space left behind.

I agree Leadfood, Porchse should seriously drop the 911 do something amazing with the Cayman. Seriously Porsche, the 911 is aging.

[SuperstarDriver]

911 is a big SUPERSTAR CAR in this era...who don't want an 911 Turbo more than an Ferrari 430?is it someone?i don't think so...we are on a forum who actually knows how feels an 4WD sportscar vs RWD...we all know what is the best traction to use on a circuit...look at 911 Turbo,look at the Gallardon,Murcielago and RS4,loom at the S4,S3 everything with 4WD is amazing on circuit...no drops of power,no danger,a lot of feeling and no hardfeeling:)))
so where is audi now?upper in the middle future...where is lambo now?at the same place with audi...where is bmw and mb now?in the present...who actually looks gorgeous?is it bmw cars?mb cars?or superstar cars like audi range with single frame agressiveness?yes audi...look at the TT (the most beautiful car in the world by AutoBild) look at the R8 the most outrageous car in the world...so beautiful it could beat even the most perfect woman in the world on beautiness..where is audi in the future?way after his predecesors...like bmw and mb...who actually launch huge range of models every year?audi...who has the biggest testing facility in the world?audi...who has the biggest tomograph in the world for using comercial and developing most precise and advanced cars in the world?audi...no one could actually beat audi on quality of materials,ansambly,design,interiors,agressiveness and sportivity...they couldn't do that...audi is the best...even BMW and MB observed that on a press conference at auto motor sport germany last year when awarded audi models more then mb and bmw...

[Audiphile]

Agreed:dig: What part of the world are you from Superstardriver? Cannot be the US, as Americans think Lexus is hot, while they cannot see past their noses to realize the substance and heritage that Audi has and is. Maybe they'll get is someday.:D

[Mori]

I agree Leadfood, Porchse should seriously drop the 911 do something amazing with the Cayman. Seriously Porsche, the 911 is aging.

Dude. Take that back. The 911 in automotive history in the flesh.. 40+ years of evolution. I hope it doesn't drop - love to drive our 911 4S. And I won't get a Porsche unless its a 911. ;)

[Leadfoot]

Dude. Take that back. The 911 in automotive history in the flesh.. 40+ years of evolution. I hope it doesn't drop - love to drive our 911 4S. And I won't get a Porsche unless its a 911. ;)

Mori,

I didn't say to drop the 911, I reckon that Porsche will never be able to get rid of it, but they do need to change it's role in the range from top dog to the classic old school sportscar, sort of like TVR did with the Griffith. People will still buy it, but this will allow Porsche to develop a real 21th century supercar that isn't controlled by the layout of the engine position.

Porsche needs to take the fight to Ferrari and this can't be done with the limitations of the 911, they need a pat on the back for the job they have done already with it, but we all know that with something new they can achieve a lot more.

[Mori]

Ahh good. :D Thought you meant to drop it completely. ;)

Quite frankly if you look at the current Porsches, I believe they are still holding back in terms of power output. Carrera is 325HP, CS is 355, powerkit is 381, but GT3 is way up there at 415HP. If they are planning 550 or so out of the GT2 then its a lot more than the Turbo - holding back again on the latter. I like to call this 'marketing horsepower'. I believe they still have reserves that we are yet to see unleashed in the 911. And just look at what the tuners, such as Ruf and Gemballa, etc. are getting out of the engine...

Love the 911 and quite frankly, I'd take it over the R8 because I don't believe that Audi will make a car that will handle better.

The 911 so far is the only car that I have driven in the twisties, that showed my own shortcomings as a driver. In every car I drove, it was either the tires or suspension (or both) that were too slow for me in the corners. But in the 911, I go into a corner much faster than I would in my RS4, and I believe that I could go even faster if I had the guts and skills. Its all about the handling which is simply amazing. :)

[SuperstarDriver]

i'm from Romania in Europe and i love Audi(since 5-6 years old) because of their design, their engines, their materials, the engine sound and performance, the whole thing...audi is the best car maker in the world...look at any stock audi you have in the showroom(you never gonna see an imperfection on a audi car)...and we all know that Porsche is colaborating with Audi and VW because of their percents of the VWAG so what we shall expect:well let's see..VW+AUDI+PORSCHE+LAMBORGHINI+BUGATTI+SKODA+SEA T+BENTLEY the best CAR MAKERS IN THE WORLD IN JUST ONE GROUP...OTHER BRANDS WILL NEVER KEEP UP WITH THIS GROUP AND ESPECIALLY WITH AUDI TECHNOLOGY(AUDI IS WAY OUT FROM THIS WORLD)...so keep up the good thing because

[SuperstarDriver]

the 911 is a very good and fast car man but let's not forget that 5 TIMES OF LE MANS winnings are in the R8 supercar and believe me that the R8 could beat a car with 500HP becuase of their suspensions who actually are the best in the world at this moment(magnetic ride) and their big tires and of course the quattro (30/70 from Gallardo) is way better than the 911...and by the way i know that 911 Turbo is capable of turning in coners of 60 degrees at 280km/h but so is in the R8...but both of them are different...R8 is a higly 2 seat supercar with the engine exactly on the middle of the center of gravity and those technology at that price you'll never get on an 911 turbo ever...R8 is a very cheap car in comparation of what can do...i expect a big test with it to confirm that!see ya...

[Mori]

911 Turbo is capable of turning in coners of 60 degrees at 280km/h but so is in the R8


I'd like to see that test. :harass:

[Damienr8]

the 911 is a very good and fast car man but let's not forget that 5 TIMES OF LE MANS winnings are in the R8 supercar and believe me that the R8 could beat a car with 500HP becuase of their suspensions who actually are the best in the world at this moment(magnetic ride) and their big tires and of course the quattro (30/70 from Gallardo) is way better than the 911...and by the way i know that 911 Turbo is capable of turning in coners of 60 degrees at 280km/h but so is in the R8...but both of them are different...R8 is a higly 2 seat supercar with the engine exactly on the middle of the center of gravity and those technology at that price you'll never get on an 911 turbo ever...R8 is a very cheap car in comparation of what can do...i expect a big test with it to confirm that!see ya...


While I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Audi brand as always, I certainly would not go so far to say that the R8 has the handling characteristics of the 911 Turbo. The 911 Turbo over the last 4 decades has been the pinnacle of Porsche design and engineering (save for the Carrera GT and GT classes).

If somehow tests prove that the R8 displays the handling characteristics of the 911 Turbo, then my hats are off to Audi because the R8 is going to DOMIN8 the competition. :)

[RXBG]

While I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Audi brand as always, I certainly would not go so far to say that the R8 has the handling characteristics of the 911 Turbo. The 911 Turbo over the last 4 decades has been the pinnacle of Porsche design and engineering (save for the Carrera GT and GT classes).

If somehow tests prove that the R8 displays the handling characteristics of the 911 Turbo, then my hats are off to Audi because the R8 is going to DOMIN8 the competition. :)

i think you and porsche will be pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised, respectively. in fact, i think porsche already has received the blow. R8s have been seen at porsche headquarters............. and the time around the ring is said to be only a few seconds slower than the 997 TT (with more weight and less power)- ouch.

i can't wait to sit down with my latte to read the first full independent review. that will be the clincher.

[Damienr8]

i think you and porsche will be pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised, respectively. in fact, i think porsche already has received the blow. R8s have been seen at porsche headquarters............. and the time around the ring is said to be only a few seconds slower than the 997 TT (with more weight and less power)- ouch.

i can't wait to sit down with my latte to read the first full independent review. that will be the clincher.

WoooWee. I can't wait for some lap time and some hands on tests.

[SuperstarDriver]

what did i tell u guys?R8=beast...911 TURBO also a beast...by R8 is dammmmm superstar car...looks like no other car in the world especially for the LED TECHNOLOGY when the positions are on and of course the technology they use on it...so much carbon fiber with so much taste in a supercar i never ever saw in my whole life...the cockpit is definitively the best on this planet...with the carbon fiber around the driver so well projected to the special doors and equipment you can't say that you ever saw an interior better than this and of course the handlling, oh my God the handlling is absolutely sublime...you surely can't drop power on this car and the sound is way better than the turbo's from 911...i heard on a video footage and i was amazed...it sounds even harder than Murcielago LP640...i think people from Audi are nutts, how they could make such a perfect cars...so much power,so much style,so much handlling, so much design, so much technology...it's imposible to stop them become the best in the world even on sales!people...look what has done Audi in the past 6 years for example...look how harder and better the brand is month to month...i think Jesus has allready bought an AUDI for sure:D

[Leadfoot]

i'm from Romania in Europe and i love Audi(since 5-6 years old)

...and by the way i know that 911 Turbo is capable of turning in coners of 60 degrees at 280km/h but so is in the R8

I sorry to say it, but with that latter statement I think you mustn't be a lot old than when you started loving Audi.

Do you understand how tight a corner that is and to take it at 175mph (280km/h) would be not only amazing for a 911 but a racing DTM car which has unbelievable downforce something the Porsche has very little if any (most road cars add lift to the rear even with spoilers).

[Leadfoot]

While I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Audi brand as always, I certainly would not go so far to say that the R8 has the handling characteristics of the 911 Turbo. The 911 Turbo over the last 4 decades has been the pinnacle of Porsche design and engineering (save for the Carrera GT and GT classes).

If somehow tests prove that the R8 displays the handling characteristics of the 911 Turbo, then my hats are off to Audi because the R8 is going to DOMIN8 the competition. :)

I am at a lost as to why some think is will be amazing for Audi to equal never mind beat Porsche at their own game. Audi has the most successful race car ever in the R8 and on it's first try with the R10 won Le Mans, their current knowledge of dynamics is unrivaled in the Sportscar series so why can they not turn they hand to a purpose built road car like the R8. With their other cars passenger space and practicality were at the fore front but here is not the case, the Lamborghini Gallardo out laps the 997tt and this was developed by Audi and the R8 has 3-4 years development time over that design. I think we will be seeing great things from the R8 and it will not only be beating it's intended rivals (Carrera S and Aston Martin V8) but things a lot more exclusive like the Ferrari F430 and it's in-house rivals the Gallardo.

[Damienr8]

I am at a lost as to why some think is will be amazing for Audi to equal never mind beat Porsche at their own game. Audi has the most successful race car ever in the R8 and on it's first try with the R10 won Le Mans, their current knowledge of dynamics is unrivaled in the Sportscar series so why can they not turn they hand to a purpose built road car like the R8. With their other cars passenger space and practicality were at the fore front but here is not the case, the Lamborghini Gallardo out laps the 997tt and this was developed by Audi and the R8 has 3-4 years development time over that design. I think we will be seeing great things from the R8 and it will not only be beating it's intended rivals (Carrera S and Aston Martin V8) but things a lot more exclusive like the Ferrari F430 and it's in-house rivals the Gallardo.

Leadfoot, you may have misunderstood my statement. I absolutely do believe that Audi can equal to and surpass Porsche at its own game. However in the handling compartment, I personally do not think the R8 will be up to the standards of the 911 turbo. I think this is a very fair assumption on my part due to the numerous amounts of reviews that praise the 911 turbo's handling, above and beyond all other cars in its class.

Don't worry, in the next couple of months we will verify this via roadtests and comparisons. BTW. Do u think Top Gear will do a piece on the R8, I sure do hope so!!!

[Leadfoot]

Regards the Top Gear doing a piece on the R8, I would be surprised if it was on the up and coming series, but like you I hope so. BTW I couldn't agree more that the 997tt is a great handling car and on the back roads will be even better than the R8 mainly down to the fact that it has better visibility so being better to place on the road and a lot narrower than the R8 so won't be as imposing for the driver. But unlike you I reckon the R8 will be better on the track than the 997tt.

[Damienr8]

Regards the Top Gear doing a piece on the R8, I would be surprised if it was on the up and coming series, but like you I hope so. BTW I couldn't agree more that the 997tt is a great handling car and on the back roads will be even better than the R8 mainly down to the fact that it has better visibility so being better to place on the road and a lot narrower than the R8 so won't be as imposing for the driver. But unlike you I reckon the R8 will be better on the track than the 997tt.

Humm I was speaking of the 911 Turbo (I know different leagues, superstar made the initial comment though). However in response to the 997tt, i think its a dead heat. I hope the R8 wins! I also think Jeremy Clarkson is gonna love the R8.

[Lateknight]

I would be surprised if Top Gear will get to drive the R8

Which by the way, new series airs on BBC2 on JANUARY 28th at 8pm :dig: (according to topgear.com)

As usual most of the filming is already done, so unless they get hold of a car in mid to late February or early March, it will not be in the coming series..

Not sure what J.C will make of the car. According to your 'Auto Motor und Sport review you posted on the R8 section they reckon its a bit 'soft'. the steering being less hardcore than other supercars. Not sure if J.C will take to that (I can imagine him saying something like "why have a supercar with compromised steering")
Its not that his own Ford GT is compromised (the unreliable bag of shit !!)

[LU-RS6]

I think Jeremy will mainly stress the fact that the R8 is more of a luxurious (really) fast cruiser, because let's face it, they could have put a lot more power in the R8 but probably refused because of the competition they'd have with Lambo. Audi R8 is the perfect car for business people who do not want to buy a Lambo as it would "shock" their clientele more.
All IMHO ofcourse...

[SuperstarDriver]

Porsche 911 Turbo was tested by an local superstar magazine in auto test (Promotor it's the name of it) and they said that 911 Turbo is capable o turning corners with an angle of 60 degrees at 280km/h...I'M NOT LYING...so that's why i said about the new 911 Turbo...and R8 could easly beat that performance for sure because of the aerodynamic body and those super suspensions and off course the engine, oh my GOD the engine...i never heard a sound more powerfull than the R8 sound and i only hear it on video shootage so...in reality could be "worse"...tornado storm i think:D And yes...Autocar magazine tested R8 and gave it 5 Stars SUPERCAR...the best car ever tested by them BECAUSE OF THE HANDLLING and performances...they where very impressed by the show off style and of course so much carbon fiber insertions the car was having...so..is it 911 better than the R8?No...of course not...and future test will follow my idea!

[Damienr8]

Hey guys,
to Damienr8

You're partial right!
Audi has 2 kinds of "quattro"
the "real" quattro, which is a permanent hydralic torsen differential
and in fact a "4motion", which is an elctronical haldex clutch, which means
you run most of the time fwd and just in case there is a difference in wheel speeds
it can go variable from 100:0 -> 0:100


Welcome Anthraxx. I know Audi has two 'different' kinds of 'quattro' systems. What audi fanatic wouldn't:D . I my previous post that you have commenting on, I was stating that I would love to see a RWD based quattro system in the future. Meaning, the Audi Quattro system today (torsen and haldex) are both built on a fwd platform. I would have liked to see it based on a RWD platform.

However, back to reality. Costs certainly outweight the benefits of this platform change, especially since Audi is beginning to do amazing things with its current quattro setup (obviously its not quattro alone, but a balance of the suspension, chassis, etc.) as seen in the RS4 and the forthcoming R8.

In any case, im glad to see that you registered to post and I hope you get the job working at Audi after your studies, that would be fantastic!

[Damienr8]

Thanks for the flowers ;)

Hm but why would you appreciate a RWD system?
Espacially it would'nt be fitted in the "top cars"
And then there would be the "safety" problem which i mentionend earlier.
Or did you just mean, that you would like a awd morge trimmed to rwd like
its done in the rs4 ?

Well yes, it looks very good, that i get there in the future...
Also because most absolvents want to get employed by BMW
which i absolutly don't understand:)

If it will happen that i get to Audi, you will have an first class informant ;)

I meant a a Quattro All Wheel Drive Platform with RWD underpinnings. Not exactly a FWD based All wheel drive system with a rear favored torque distribution. However do believe that I love the current Quattro system, but i would like to see how an (Audi Developed) RWD based system would perform against it.

BTW, these boards do need some more first class informants. I know some people here are very close to audi, and the more the merrier!

[Damienr8]

Hm ok, i got the point,
but could you tell me the intention why Audi should develop an RWD system?

I didnt say a RWD system, i said a Quattro All Wheel Drive System with RWD underpinnings. Just as the current quattro is derived from a FWD based platform, i would have like to have seen what Quattro would have been like if it was derived from a RWD based platform.

[Benman]

Welcome ANTHRAxx_, nice post.:0:

Ben:addict:

[Leadfoot]

I didnt say a RWD system, i said a Quattro All Wheel Drive System with RWD underpinnings. Just as the current quattro is derived from a FWD based platform, i would have like to have seen what Quattro would have been like if it was derived from a RWD based platform.

Most AWD systems with RWD underpinnings for either Mid-engined or Rear-engined like the Porsche. The Nissan GT-R and the X-drive are the only ones that use this design with their engines at the front but both sap a lot more power than quattro does but they do have an advantage in weight balance over the quattro. It's the catch 22, better weight balance and less power at the wheels or more power at the wheels and not as good weight balance plus better traction.

[Mori]

When you pull the handbrake on a haldex - the haldex disengages. This system is perfect for having fun because you can use the handbrake whenever you want.

On the Torsen, you need to press the clutch first, then pull the e-brake, then release the clutch again.

[Iceman]

Audi will never change to RWD, Quattro is the game.
The only reason Audi race with RWD is of the rules.
If quattro was aloud in LeMans sportcar or DTM racing Audi would use it.
But because they race with it, is not a reason to change it on the road as well or because BMW, Lexus and Mercedes use it.
If you want a rear wheel drive car buy a BMW, Lexus, Merc or what ever.
Audi is Audi because of the fact they built FWD and Quattro cars.
If Audi change to RWD there is nothing special anymore about them and they go up in the flock.

Hans.

[Mori]

To tell the truth the only reason I love Audi's is because of quattro. I wouldn't buy a FWD Audi. FWD = torque steer. Torque steer sucks.

If I wanted a fun car for the weekends then BMW or Porsche is the way to go. Which is too bad, because I would prefer a Lotus Elise type Audi R4 or whatever it was called with RWD.

By the way - IF Audi were ever to start making RWD cars, that doesn't change the fact that they would have quattro models anyway. So whats the difference if you want to buy a quattro? Look at the Skyline R34 - RWD until it starts sliding - up to 50% of the torque goes to the front in that case. Less power loss, etc. Perfect for fun in the dry, wet and snow. ;)

[SuperstarDriver]

yes very ugly and cheap interiors on BMW...i actually i'm asking how are people paying to drive in those cabins where everything is so nasty and ugly, and the plastic is not the best quality like in the Audi range of cars...so BMW must to learn from Audi about everything even traction where Audi has not rivals!Good bye BMW...BMW is waisting power on every hard acceleration even with the DSC on does that, i saw the new 335i Coupe burning tires like hall in the stiff curves on a racetrack filmed by an known magazine around the world!I hate doing that with my tires and my car for me is POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL and although some thing is way better to drive RWD when you actually leave to drive an perfect car like for example the RS4 you'll never ever wanna drive an RWD car...is like a miracle what can do 100% traction on every conditions!

[El_cucaracha]

I'm very upset that those morans from porsche will sell Bentley and Lambo if they'll get control packeg of VW

[Iceman]

I'm very upset that those morans from porsche will sell Bentley and Lambo if they'll get control packeg of VW
They will not sell Bentley, they will sell Bugatti, big difference.

Hans.

[Leadfoot]

They will not sell Bentley, they will sell Bugatti, big difference.

Hans.

Yeah, but is it worth anything, that the $64,000 question.:D

[El_cucaracha]

it's ice that bentley will stay vag but i LOVE Lambo, selling bugatti is not tragedy, for me, i belive that porsche is able to make better one