The RS4 is Pretty Good Value (IMO)

[sarends]

There has been some discussion on whether the RS4 is overpriced. Here is how I see it:

A BMW 335I (well loaded) is about $48k (which is more than the E46 top of the line coupes were). The E92 M3 (IMO) will be about $65k (comparably loaded to the RS4) - it will be the most expensive M3 ever (short of the unavailable CSL). The RS4 is about $72k (well loaded). However, with the RS4 you also get quattro. So how much should we fairly add for the quattro? A BMW XI is about $2k more than a 2 wheel drive. Is the quattro system in the RS4 a better (more valuable) system than what is in BMW's XI systems? I am not an expert here, but my hunch is that it is. So, even if you just add $2k - $4k to the new M3's $65k we are now at $67k - $69k compared to the RS4's $72k. So if you want to argue that the RS4 is (maybe) $3k to $5k too high, I guess you could.

Another way to look at it - what else offers similar all around looks, quality, convenience and (6 speed) performance today? What car is this? I can't think of anything. The closest car in my mind is my current E39 M5, which really isn't the same car, but I absolutely love my M5 (for many many reasons) and the only car I can see moving into right now from the M5 is the RS4, and I have given it allot of thought!

I have driven the B7 S4 and I am very sorry guys, the handling is simply not there compared to an E46 M3 or particularly compared to an RS4. I even prefer the handling of the BMW 335I to the S7 S4 (sorry). Now the RS4, that is a COMPLETELY different story. ANd that my friends is why you are seeing BMW guys (M3 and M5) begin to move to the very excellent (all around) RS4, it is just that good. You see, the RS4 is kinda like an "M". BMW Ms just seem to have that magic synergy of parts that all come together that make you enjoy the car in a million ways - same with the RS4. :D

[Speedou]

Very good write up! I haven't drive the new RS4 but trusting to tests it should be just like that. Only thing you can still miss in it is rear wheel drive. I mean total control with gas and those lovely powerslides (Audi just isn't that much fun for that kinda of guys). But as you mentioned, perfect allrounder and then just get the GT3 for track ;)

[sarends]

Thanks!

Throwing out the back end is not enough fun compared to the "balls to the walls" fun you can have in an RS4, particularly for spirited (safe) street application. "Different strokes for different folks", right!!

If you haven't driven one, it is a rare treat! I hope I can swing one one of these days!


Very good write up! I haven't drive the new RS4 but trusting to tests it should be just like that. Only thing you can still miss in it is rear wheel drive. I mean total control with gas and those lovely powerslides (Audi just isn't that much fun for that kinda of guys). But as you mentioned, perfect allrounder and then just get the GT3 for track ;)

[Leadfoot]

Agreed about the RS4, it's an amazing bit of kit. But all this talk about kicking the tail, please..........now on a track yes the M3 is way better than either the S4 or RS4, but when on the road how many of you have the tail out on your M cars.........I bet none of you at any real speed but it to dangerous, it all kept to putting out a junction and giving it a boot. Now I don't know about you but my S4 hasn't a problem doing this and I bet it's a lot easier to control as well especially when it's greasy or icy.

Ultimately the M3 is a better handing car than a B7 S4 but only in the right hands and this is a very important point because 99% of BMW M and Audi S/RS models are not anything that special behind the wheel and here is where I feel Audi win it. The added security of AWD over RWD is easier for us (Joe Public) to control with confidence. So IMHO the S4 is the better car compared to an M3 but as for the RS4, well it's in a totally different league.

[Speedou]

But all this talk about kicking the tail, please..........now on a track yes the M3 is way better than either the S4 or RS4, but when on the road how many of you have the tail out on your M cars.........I bet none of you at any real speed but it to dangerous, it all kept to putting out a junction and giving it a boot.

I bet I have and it's enough for me (safe or not, still doing it). Even on winter, when I really want to go out to play I enjoy more rwd. About the speed, why you even have to have a lot speed? On dry you still can't play same way. To me this seems going to rwd vs. 4wd once again. How hard it's understand. Better allrounder yes, very enjoyable, but when people like me really like to play 4wd isn't the choise. As sarends said:

"Different strokes for different folks"

On my first post I just wanted to bring up that sarends points were great.

[Leadfoot]

Fair point Speedou, I was generalising it possibly to much and explaining why I feel that Audi have got the S/RS models more right for more people. Some people read the magazine and listen to the testers talking about how much more this car is more entertaining than another car without taking into account the abilities of the reviewers over their own abilities. Maybe you and sarends have the ability to drive these cars to their full and if that the case then the M3/5 is the way to go.:thumb:

[Speedou]

Nice to see we found the same language :thumb:

[sarends]

Leadfoot, I am trying to understand your quote, "...now on a track yes the M3 is way better than either the S4 or RS4"

Best Nurburgring track times for M3, S4, RS4 plus a couple others of interest are listed below.

The best RS4 time (7:58) is 22 seconds faster than the best E46 M3 time (8:22). And, this RS4 was only 7 seconds slower than the 3,050 lb CSL!!!

And, there is an S4 that clocked an 8:29, just 7 seconds slower than fastest M3.

BMW M3 CSL - 7:50
Audi B7 RS4 - 7:58 :rs4addict
Audi B7 RS4 - 8:09 :rs4kiss:
BMW M5 E60 - 8:13
BMW E36 M3 Euro 321 HP - 8:20
Audi RS6 - 8:20 :rs6kiss:
BMW E46 M3 - 8:22
Audi B5 RS4 - 8:25 :rs4addict
BMW M5 - E39 - 8:28 (:dig: the car I drive now!)
Audi S4 Avant 4.2 - 8:29 :s4addict:
Audi S4 - 265HP - 8:42

The only M3 to top the B7 RS4 was the super liteweight (3050 lb) CSL. All normal M3s were at least 22 seconds slower than the RS4 - that is a significant difference in track ability. For example, a car 22 seconds faster than the BMW M3 CSL is the $440,000 Porsche Carrera GT!!!! 22 seconds on the Nurburgring is a HUGE speed difference.

Just thought these timkes might be interesting.

[Leadfoot]

sarends,

OK let me explain, my quote about the M3 being way better than either the S4 or RS4 on a track was from an entertainment point of view and not lap times. The times you have quote for the RS4 (7:58 and 8:09) where factory test driver being the quickest time and rumor has it this was without a speed limiter and the second time was tested by the same person who tested the M3 (8:22), so a 13 seconds improvement is still amazingly impressive. The S4's time of 8:29 was for the Avant which is over 100kgs heavier than the saloon so it may even have gotten closer to the M3's time.

I still believe that from an entertainment point of view the M3/CSL is the better option if you are the better driver but from a technical/more efficient/safety point of view the S4/RS4 is the better choice especially if you are not the greatest driver, which frankly most of the public aren't. I still feel that an average driver in a S4 will be able to keep up which a good driver in an M3 on the road and if the roles were reversed the S4 would walk off into the distance such is the added confidence the quattro system give the driver over any rwd car.

Hopefully this explains where I'm coming from.:thumb: