Message to Audi: Next RS6 pricing needs to be right

[tailpipe]

As an Audi fan, even I am amazed at how well the RS4 is doing. Universally praised and much admired, it is selling like hot cakes with an order book that stretches well into 2007. It proves you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. But there is no escaping from the fact that the A4 chassis is somewhat state-of-the-ark. I suspect that its appeal will be somewhat dented by the arrival of the new M3.

At least we can look forward to the arrival of the next RS6, which is now only months away. The A6 was a dynamic step forward for Audi and while the next RS6 will still have many compromises, it should be a great, great car. The new S6 is pretty impressive and its effortless cruising ability bodes well for the RS6's high performance abilities. As reported elsewhere, Audi returns to the tried and tested formula of twin-turbos.

The tag that seems to naturally attach itself to these cars is the term everyday supercar. The RS6 should certainly be that. Part of the appeal is having a car that is truly practical and reliable in all conditions. What is also nice is being able to humble a car that costs twice as much. For me the best thing about the RS4 and RS6 is that they tend to look on little different from standard models, save oval exhausts, fatter tires and slightly flared wheel arches. Talk softly and carry a big stick is how I would describe the RS look.

The big question is how close to £70,000 will the RS6 sell for. With cars like the Aston-Martin V8 Vantage, and Audi's own R8 selling for £80,000, a £70K RS6 looks a tad expensive. Instead of buying an RS6, some punters may decide to get a Aston for themselves and a bog standard A6 for the family. Then there are things like the new Range Rover Sport with its amazing V8 diesel, selling at below £60,000. (Which should become even more appealing assuming they can get the build quality right.)

What I'm really saying is that the market for everyday exotics has become much more crowded and competitive. This means that value has to much greater part of the equation. BMW's M5 is not selling in anything like the anticipated numbers - which is why they are producing a wagon and 6-series variants. The problem is it was too expensive. Buyers have been saying: you know what, at that price I'll have a Porsche. What really disrupts the market is the second-hand values of supercars. A 2-year old Lamborghini Gallardo can be picked up for nearly half the new price. So Audi has got to price the new RS6 right. The closer it is to £60,000 the better.

What do you think?

[Leadfoot]

Alas Tailpipe, with the S6 already priced at £55k the chances of the RS6 being close to £60k is highly unlikely to say the least. I doubt the price will even be below the £70k mark, sad to say.

[S6LANA]

Tailpipe, philosophically, you are spot on. But, to Leadfoot's point, I just don't see it happening. And, here's another observation I had that may give an indication of price.

While the R8 is truly a special car, let's not lose site that it's still only got 420bhp. And, while I like its look very much, in my opinion, it will be half the car that the RS6 will be due to the real-world practicality of the larger platform and early reports of a V10 biturbo pumping out 550+ bhp.

How can Audi justify selling the R8 for more when the RS6 has way more creature comforts, practicality, and power?

Like you guys, I'm a fan of Audi and really hope they price the RS6 right for the market. I would love to roll one and not have to choose between it and a Porsche 911 Turbo.

:addict:

[tailpipe]

You're right of course, hence the message. But the S6 is not selling in anything like the anticipated numbers. The market is saying it is overpriced.

Generally, Audis have become much more expensive and I'm not sure that enough people believe they are worth the premium Audi wants to charge for its cars. The Luxury Car pecking order is Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus and Jaguar/ Range Rover. Woe betide the manufacturer that tries to disrupt this accepted order. Sales have actually started to decline in the USA. I am pretty sure that this has everything to do with price rather than product quality.

Suffice it to say that while laziness is the malaise of the English, Arrogance has been the traditional Achilles Heel of Germany. I hope Audi realises this.

[S6LANA]

Hear hear.....Here's a little more fuel on the fire. I was at a recent Audi North America driving event and one of the fellow enthusiasts (a German) with ties into Audi explained how Audi is going to do an across-the-board price increase under the title of "just because" in the next year or two.

This is still hearsay, but if true, looks like arrogance is alive and well in Germany :) But, DAMN they make nice cars!

[tazsura]

You're right of course, hence the message. But the S6 is not selling in anything like the anticipated numbers. The market is saying it is overpriced.

For sure the S6 does look expensive when compared to its opposition. I think Audi justify the extra-over the rest for it V10 displacement. I too agree that the price for the S6 is a little steep. Also, and a bigger factor IMHO, is the RS6. Everyone knows that the S6 is just the warm-up and that the Audi techs and engineers held back with this car (or maybe didnt push as hard as they could) so that the RS6 would and will have FULL effect.

As Leadfoot has suggested, £60K is not a realistic price estimation, your original estimate of £70K seems more likely. Having seen the spec levels in the new RS4, I don't think there will be a need to go too silly on the options list however.

Also, I don't know if comparing the likes of a 2nd hand Gallardo to a new RS6 is fair. Don't forget, the RS6 is going to have more power than the Gallardo as well as more doors, more seats and more luxury.

One question how many M5's do BMW produce a year? What sales figures did they expect to reach in the UK? I must admit, their seem to be loads around my area at the moment! I'm sure Audi will reach their sales targets for the RS6 due to the fact that they are not produced in anywhere near the same numbers as BMW M models.

:heart: :addict: :heart: :rs4addict

[m3fan]

i guessing price for the new RS6 would be $95-115.

[S6LANA]

i guessing price for the new RS6 would be $95-115.

If that's US dollars, then I'm a happy camper. I'd like to be able to get in on it in the low-$100k range (~$100-105k)

:cheers:

[tailpipe]

tazsura

on some other car websites they have a system whereby you can add to someone's online repuation by endorsing a well-written post. Yours is just such a post.

You are 100% right when you say that the S6 was not the car it could have been or should have been. Personally, I would have liked it to have 500 bhp. This would have been easy to deliver. I would have also liked to have seen a more sophisticated suspension set-up.

Had the S6 provided these things, then the existence of the RS6 might have been harder to justify. Which makes me ask the same question again: why does Audi need two performance models: MB does it with one AMG model as does BMW with one M model?

The cynical answer is that Audi simply wants to extract as much money from its customers as possible.

[Leadfoot]

tazsura

on some other car websites they have a system whereby you can add to someone's online repuation by endorsing a well-written post. Yours is just such a post.

You are 100% right when you say that the S6 was not the car it could have been or should have been. Personally, I would have liked it to have 500 bhp. This would have been easy to deliver. I would have also liked to have seen a more sophisticated suspension set-up.

Had the S6 provided these things, then the existence of the RS6 might have been harder to justify. Which makes me ask the same question again: why does Audi need two performance models: MB does it with one AMG model as does BMW with one M model?

The cynical answer is that Audi simply wants to extract as much money from its customers as possible.

Tailpipe,

It would have been nice to have had more power, but that would have meant even more money, no 435hp is just fine by me. But my biggest complaint is the suspension set-up, like the S4 it's not an all-out performance car so why the rock hard suspension. If their had at least offered it with Magnetic Ride as an optional extra, lets face it the TT and the R8 are offering it so why not a car that could really benefit from it.

Your opinion on the two hi-performance models from Audi against Merc and BWM's one, I'm not so sure but one thing is certain, the S models becoming more sporty over the years. At the start with the S2 and the RS2 there was almost a 45% power gain for the RS2, but now the power increase is only 22%. The RS brand is becoming more like what the CSL is without the weight lose, I mean there isn't a great increase in power, all the improvements are coming from other areas and this is just fine. If Audi can get the suspension right with their S models the principal behind the versions should go like this, S model = relaxed power without the lose of luxury and the RS model = more focused handling and dynamics.

If you think about it, Audi are offering an AMG experience with their S models and a M/CSL experience with their RS models but with the all weather ability and safety that only quattro can provide. So do we need two models, my answer is yes.

[chewym]

In USA I think that Audi should price it at the price of the S8.

US S6: 72k
US S8: 92k
US RS6: ??? But the last RS6 was more expensive that the competition and started at 82,700, the 2003 M5 went for 70,400. The new M5 goes for 83,000 and change. So I think that 95,000 is to be expected. Just about what I thought before all of this "complicated" math.

[tazsura]

tazsura

on some other car websites they have a system whereby you can add to someone's online repuation by endorsing a well-written post. Yours is just such a post.

You are 100% right when you say that the S6 was not the car it could have been or should have been. Personally, I would have liked it to have 500 bhp. This would have been easy to deliver. I would have also liked to have seen a more sophisticated suspension set-up.

Had the S6 provided these things, then the existence of the RS6 might have been harder to justify. Which makes me ask the same question again: why does Audi need two performance models: MB does it with one AMG model as does BMW with one M model?

The cynical answer is that Audi simply wants to extract as much money from its customers as possible.

Tailpipe,

Thank you for kind words. I think this forum illustrates that the there are a few of us consumers that know what we're talking about and don't get fobbed off with the salesman's jargon like the rest of the heard. It's great that we can all discuss matters and air views without fear of getting slated!

Yourself and Leadfoot have hit the nail on the head with regards to the S6...and the rest of the S range. The suspension set-up of these cars are vital. The engines are fine. If the suspension of these cars are right, then the engine and the rest of the package fall into place and make sense. The normally aspirated V10 in the S6 is more than competent. With decent suspension, the S range can be held in the same regard as M and AMG models while offering slightly different values.

I think Audi are correct in having the S and RS models BUT, and its a big BUT, only keep RS for the 4 and 6 series models. I don't want Audi to produce soo many RS models, so that with every new model range launch, we expect an S and RS version. This would kill the image and exclusivity of the RS badge. In the TT and A3 ranges for example, the S version can be made slightly more raw, thus matching the more sporty nature of these model ranges. The standard big V6 engines in these ranges can then play at the more relaxed version of the models i.e the 3.2V6 TT and A3 3.2 V6.

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe,

Yourself and Leadfoot have hit the nail on the head with regards to the S6...and the rest of the S range. The suspension set-up of these cars are vital. The engines are fine. If the suspension of these cars are right, then the engine and the rest of the package fall into place and make sense. The normally aspirated V10 in the S6 is more than competent. With decent suspension, the S range can be held in the same regard as M and AMG models while offering slightly different values.

I think Audi are correct in having the S and RS models BUT, and its a big BUT, only keep RS for the 4 and 6 series models. I don't want Audi to produce soo many RS models, so that with every new model range launch, we expect an S and RS version. This would kill the image and exclusivity of the RS badge. In the TT and A3 ranges for example, the S version can be made slightly more raw, thus matching the more sporty nature of these model ranges. The standard big V6 engines in these ranges can then play at the more relaxed version of the models i.e the 3.2V6 TT and A3 3.2 V6.

I couldn't agree more, a S3 or TT-S is more than enough for both this models. The TT is already a lot sportier than either the standard A4 or A6 so a S model is most likely the equal of what the RS4 is or the future RS6, like-wise the R8 needs only a S model. Or maybe these models (TT & R8) need something totally different and not a S/RS badge model at all.

[S6LANA]

In USA I think that Audi should price it at the price of the S8.

US S6: 72k
US S8: 92k
US RS6: ??? But the last RS6 was more expensive that the competition and started at 82,700, the 2003 M5 went for 70,400. The new M5 goes for 83,000 and change. So I think that 95,000 is to be expected. Just about what I thought before all of this "complicated" math.

Chewey,
I will slap a big kiss on your forehead and do your laundry for a week if that's the case! :bigeyes:

:addict:

[Benman]

The cynical answer is that Audi simply wants to extract as much money from its customers as possible.

This is actually the same for any company, car related or not. No company is "benevolent" in their pricing. BMW does not place the price of their M5s lower than the RS 6s because they're "nicer". E55s do not sell at a lower price because Mercedes "cares" more about their customers. It is all supply and demand and what the market can bear. It is also about recouping development costs. BMW probably puts even more $$$ into their M cars than Audi/quattro does with their RS models. Problem is BMW sells more than double the # of M cars vs RS cars. So... they are able to sell said cars for less yet make more gross profit at the same time. Not a bad stragedy. Same too with the AMG cars. Yet, this is the same exact reason why we have already seen the new M5 and the new AMG cars at our collision repair shop and yet never seen an RS car here... rarity.

Rarity has a price, not as much profit for the manufacture yet higher price for the consumer. No, it's not about Audi being "greedy" and BMW being kind, there is simply a higher development cost per unit compared to the M and AMG cars. Plain and simple economics. To those that want outright performance and don't care about exclusivity, the M cars and AMG rides are the smarter buy (at least in summertime ;) ) but for those that really want the more unique automobile, they look for the RS moniker.

It is really not that much different than the Ferrari vs Porsche conundrum. Why would anyone pay so much more $$$ for a car that is no faster and no better handling? Exclusivity. The Ferrari has that mystique about it. No, it isn't better or faster, but it is better looking, has a nicer interior, i.e. it is perceived to be better. Kinda like a RS.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[absent]

If the new RS6 comes with less the 550hp and thus far performance at best only equal to E63/M5 and is priced at $100k+ it will border on overpriced but still will sell to hardcore Audi fans.
If Audi is really smart they would crank the power to over 600hp (power boost in production not much more expensive then a CD player),set the price at $110k and sell every one they make.
Bragging rights are a powerful argument and could bring a lot of moneyed customers from BMW and MB.
The only question is ,are they that smart?

[noushy]

Tailpipe, I have to agree as well, but unfortunately given the price of the present S6, I highly doubt we will see an RS6 for less than $90k base. That means around $100k for one out the door. I am not sure how many they will sell, given the fact that the M5, with 500hp, and a sticker in the low 80s, is not selling as fast as BMW wants. Then again, some people felt this was the fault of the transmission. As to how many BMW made, they recently celebrated their 20,000 V10 engine build which means basically about 15,000 M5s, and 5,000 or less M6s. They build many more M5s than M6s, and either way, they out built the RS6. Now I do not think the USA is ready for a $100k RS6, given the fact that the S8 is around that price and appeals to an older, typically more wealthy audience. If the RS6 stays around $90k, it will do well. And you are right, Audi does not enjoy the presence that BMW and MB do, and that is a factor for many high dollar car buyers. You have to have more than just a well made solid car, you need flash, pizaaz, etc.

Noushy

[Leadfoot]

I might be wrong but I feel it's a different type of person that buys a RS model than an M. In my opinion people who buy BMW M models are more influenced by what is put in the magazine and that is why there is more of them sold compare to the RS models, the RS4 and RS6 are bought by the same type of people who buy Mercedes AMGs, they buy them more for what they stand for in their respective brands, ie. the best combination of performance and build quality combined with exclusivity.

I feel unless the price is way off the mark it will still sell in the same numbers as the last. Audi could have sold more RS4 than they made in the last one and I have no doubt that they could do the same with the current one, so they will it not be the same for the next RS6.

[tailpipe]

These latest posts remind me of the other great criticism of Audi that also erodes a perception of value. This is that RS models always seem to appear too late in the model lifecycle.

The RS4 is a great car. But it was at least 6-months late and has only been on sale for a matter of months. Yet the A4 range will be replaced in 2007. So it will have a shelf-life of not much more than a year. This means that RS4s will depreciate as fast as they accelerate.

The new B8 A4 will have a chassis that's as good if not better than the RS4 as well as an inherently better weight distribution. So why would anyone want to buy a car that is fundamnetally out of date within 12 months of purchase?

At least the S4 arrived in good time. But why does Audi need an S4 and an RS4. Most of the time its S models are lame compared to equivalent M or AMG models, while RS models are always the mutt's nutts. If BMW and Mercedes-Benz can make do with one high-performance model, then why can't Audi?




The RS

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe, think of the S model as a M/Sport from BMW and you are nearer the mark, especially with the 335i now available.

[noushy]

Leadfoot, I disagree, but then again, I might not be that typical M car buyer. I love german cars, their precision, build quality and feel on the road. Audi just did not have a car that I was looking for at this point. I wanted something more or equal to the RS6, and even thought the M5/M6 are rear wheel, for me I have a Cayenne when the weather goes bad. I drove my RS6 in the snow, just not often because of the damage due to salt, rocks, salt chips, etc. The M car is really better than you think. At first I was kind of in shock, going from the Audi to the BMW, but it has grown on me. It is fast, comfortable, and has better road feel than the RS6. I corners harder, it brakes harder, and with the windows down that engine makes great noises. Now I would love to have another sports sedan, and I am sure it will be an Audi. I drove an E63, and a CLS63, and both my business partner and a close friend just laughed (they felt the cars were at least 20k overpriced). Unimpressed by the benz. Audi just needs to get the RS cars out much quicker, and not at the end of a model run. Who wants to pay 80-100k for a body style that gets replaced one year later. At least BMW and MB understand that and come out with their sportier models much more quickly. (typically 1 year for MB, 2 for BMW, 4 for Audi). They are all nice cars compared to what most people drive, we are talking about cars in the 80-110k range, 4 to 5 times the average price of a car. It is not about what is better, but what you like, and what makes you happy, and fulfills your needs or expectations.

Peace,
Noushy

[Leadfoot]

noushy,

We all know that it's about time Audi pulled it's finger out and brought out the RS models sooner, hell even the S models should be here right from the off, but Audi for some reason only known to them have buck the advice from their customer's and resisted up to now. Some say that this is about to change from the A5 onward and I hope that this will indeed be the case, the RS version such have at the very least have 3 years before a model change and with most car life cycles at 6~8 years that would be a nice time for a model to show it's abilities.

The S model from my experience driving one for quite a while is that it has more in common with a M/Sport model from BMW than a M, mainly because the S is more a luxury/sport car than a focus driver's tool and this bears closely with what a M/Sport model is in the BMW range, admittedly one with equalling performance, that is why I said the 335i. The RS is more like the M and possibly slightly beyond it is some ways in it's amazing gripe, confidence and all out performance, but in it's very essence it's like the BMW M capturing what the gifted driver looks for in a sport/family car.

On a scale of sportiness the differing brands/models would in my opinion go like this.

M/Sports(BMW) - S (Audi) - AMG (Merc) - M (BMW) - RS (Audi)

This might not reflect the performance abilities of each, but more where I think a gifted driver would place the car's abilities and this is based on the A4 range and rival brands, but the A6 range as the next RS6's abilities are as yet unknown.

We have debated the expected horsepower of the next RS6 and R8v10 to death and until it's official info is released we will only be guessing, so here's hoping it's finally the car to give the M5/6 a wet-willie and a clean pair of heels and not cost us a fortune to do it.

[noushy]

Leadfoot, I love it. I am fortunate that my dealer owns a BMW dealership as well as an Audi dealership, and I would love to drop off my M6 (or sell it to my friend or brother) and pick up the new RS6 when it is available. I worry that the increased weight of the S6 will move over to the RS6, and even with 550hp, it may struggle to fend off the M5/M6. BMW is already upset about the weight, and is thinking of new ways to bring it down. Supposedly there is a light weight M6 CSL coming (more carbon fibre parts), and that is the kind of thinking Audi needs to do. Chevy did it with the Corvette, dropped almost two hundred pounds, and gave the Z06 another 105hp. Now if Audi could give the S6 another 100+hp and drop 100-200 pounds doing so, wow, the new RS6 will be a killer in sheeps clothing. And the every day driveability and traction make it a dream. I want a supersedan that weighs no more than 3500 pounds, can keep up with the best sports GT cars (not sports cars) ie Bentley CGT, Ferrari Scag, etc. and be able to take the family out for dinner, and me to work and back most of the time. Bring it on Audi, we have the funds, now make us the car.

Peace
Noushy

[chewym]

I want a supersedan that weighs no more than 3500 pounds, can keep up with the best sports GT cars (not sports cars) ie Bentley CGT, Ferrari Scag, etc. and be able to take the family out for dinner, and me to work and back most of the time.

I want the moon.

[Leadfoot]

I want to spend the rest of my life making love to a supermodel, but I reckon the moon would be more achievable.:hihi:

[noushy]

Ah, well we all can dream right? I think Audi has the technology and the ability to build an amazing mid sized supersedan. I all depends on how deep they want to dig in. Use the ASF on an A6 size chassis, give it sprinklings from the R8, the engine it should have (tt V10), and it may weigh a little more than 3500, but if under 4000 it still will be amazing. BMW built the M5 to be around 4100 pounds, and that has no aluminum frame, and no all wheel drive. Bring it on I say. Besides we should all set our goals high.

Noushy

[Leadfoot]

Ah, well we all can dream right? I think Audi has the technology and the ability to build an amazing mid sized supersedan. I all depends on how deep they want to dig in. Use the ASF on an A6 size chassis, give it sprinklings from the R8, the engine it should have (tt V10), and it may weigh a little more than 3500, but if under 4000 it still will be amazing. BMW built the M5 to be around 4100 pounds, and that has no aluminum frame, and no all wheel drive. Bring it on I say. Besides we should all set our goals high.

Noushy

Agreed, but the A4/6 is Audi's bread and butter and here more than anywhere is where they have to be competitive so while it's acceptable to use the technology on the TT and be able to charge an extra £3K+ for, this might make the A4 and A6 uncompetitive and that would spell disaster for their sales. Regardless of how good the cars will performance, price is still the main reason for sales and though this is less of a problem when the price of the car goes up it will be at the bottom end where most of the sales are.

No the only way the RS6 will reduce weight is through the use of exterior panels and sub-frame parts being made from alloy, carbon-fibre prop shafts, lighter alloy wheels, carbon brakes and possibly thinner glass, these will all add to the value but when the car is aimed at people who are to a lesser extreme swayed by price than it might be possible to lower the weight.

[Benman]

I want the moon.


No, he just wants a heavily modded B5 S4 and rear seat passengers be darned...

Ben:addict:

[paulhiggs]

Hey noushy

I really like your "same owner/driver" comparisons of the M6 and the RS6.

How much do you think the M6 is better just because 4 technology years have passed since the RS6 was made?
If present day technology is applied to the next RS6 model, how do you think that would stack up??

Paul

[noushy]

Well it is difficult to directly compare the two cars. The M6 is a coupe, and as such is more developed to coddle you, wrap around you and make you feel like you are in a fighter jet. The RS6 is a late 90s, early 2000s european based sports sedan. You sit more upright, much more glass, and it sort of drives you around wheareas the M6 you drive. The trans is much more involving, and when you learn the SMG, shifts with authority. You can just unwind it in second and listen to the engine scream, amazing. The RS6 is noisier with the windows up, much more wind noise, and not as stable as the M6. Yes, the M6 is based on a 2004 car wheareas the RS6 is based on a 1998 A6. I think the newer A6 will match up better with the BMW. But still, road feel and steering are much better on a BMW (all models). The Audi cars are very well made, just a little lacking in feel. Now alot depends on the new RS6. If Audi really pulls out all the stops, and they can, ie aluminum frame, cf parts, aluminum parts, keeps the weight to under 4000lbs, and really works on the chassis, this would be a much better match. Part of the problem with the RS6 is that it is based on a front wheel drive chasis. Audi does not really have a true rear drive chassis, and that affects the feel significantly. The heavily front biased weight distribution hurts too. It is just one of those things that you need to sit in each car, drive on a mix of roads/freeway (maybe track), but really roads, and you will see. My 2000 540i sport had a better road feel than the RS6, and a comparable equipment layout. It did not have the torque and power, or the all weather traction, but coming onto an on ramp, at speed, the 5er felt flat and powerful, less jumpy and bouncy than the RS6.

Peace,
Noushy

[nene]

I don't know if the newer BMWs with that Active Steering option really make you feel more connected to the road. Having 5-series since the late 80s, I can assure you that suspension on all those cars were just amazing. Never been able to find it anywhere else. However, the new 545i I have, with the Active Steering, really drives me crazy. At highway speeds seems more normal, however nothing like my previous versions.

[noushy]

Nene, the active steering is an option, and if you notice, BMW does not include it on the M cars. My M6 does not have it, and it has great road feel for a luxury GT. Man the sound that V10 makes on wide open throttle from say 70-100, uh just amazing. Took it out this morning and fell in love again.

Peace,
Noushy

[Erik]

I don't know if the newer BMWs with that Active Steering option really make you feel more connected to the road.

There's a good reason why they didn't put it in the M5/M6 ;) :stick:

I heard this directly from M GmbH in Garching.

[El_cucaracha]

hello guys. i am interested if there is any kind of photo of new RS6?