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Iceman
November 6th, 2006, 21:21
It start to look like that the Audi R8 5.2 V10 FSI will get 480 hp.
More power will put it to close to the Gallardo, power and money wise.

Hans.

quattro Gmbh
November 6th, 2006, 21:26
i think +60 hp won't make much difference.

Iceman
November 6th, 2006, 21:39
i think +60 hp won't make much difference.
Maybe not, but it will sound a lot better with a V10.

Hans.

Leadfoot
November 6th, 2006, 22:11
Hans, I hope not. 480horses wouldn't let it keep up with the M5 let never mind the M6 which is it's direct competitor as well as being cheaper. If true it's not a case of keeping it below the Gallardo as much as not letting it run away from the 997Turbo. Looks like Porsche is having to much of a say in Audi's affairs if you ask me.

Erik
November 6th, 2006, 22:50
Already the RS4 is quicker than the M5 around the Ring ;)

m3fan
November 6th, 2006, 22:55
The FSI V10 should have 500hp. Is the V10 really gonna be worth an extra
20-30K more for 60 extra horse power? The Gallardo has 520hp but will be upgraded to 550 for 08. Audi needs to give the R8 V10 500hp to compete with the M6(507hp 383ft) SL55(510hp 531ft) Viper(515hp 535ft). I also guessing that the torque will be around 350ft because the Gallardo is at 376ft.

Leadfoot
November 6th, 2006, 23:07
Already the RS4 is quicker than the M5 around the Ring ;)

I know Erik, but you know as well as I that the M6 is the thick kid at the back of the class when it comes to handling in such company so any races that it will be doing against a R8 will be straight line acceleration and I somehow doubt 480hp will cut it.

Benman
November 7th, 2006, 01:23
I somehow doubt 480hp will cut it.

At least, on paper it won't. The bench racers will be most dissapointed...

Ben:addict:

chewym
November 7th, 2006, 03:50
The regular R with the V8 should match the M6 in straightline acceleration. But, I do agree that 480 would be a bit dissapointing.

sticky
November 7th, 2006, 04:12
The regular R with the V8 should match the M6 in straightline acceleration. But, I do agree that 480 would be a bit dissapointing.

It should, but it won't. The gallardo doesn't match the M6 why would the R8?

480 hp is a joke, not even worth it. Shouldn't a mid engine sports car with a v10 be quicker than a sedan like the M5? Come on audi, do something interesting. Mercedes knows how make a statement with engine power.

Leadfoot
November 7th, 2006, 09:40
At least, on paper it won't. The bench racers will be most dissapointed...

Ben:addict:

Ben,

I agree with you that the R8 will whip a M6 in real world driving as well as the track but somehow doubt it will win in a straight line drag race which if you listen to most of us on this forum only do.

Another point worth making is if the talk is to be believed the next RS6 will also whip the R8v10 in a drag race and this will be most displeasing to potential owners of what is meant to be the sportiest of all Audi models and the connection with Motor-sport/Le Mans victories.

If chewym is correct and the standard R8 will match the M5 then Audi are being very conservative with their figures.:vhmmm:

dsts6
November 7th, 2006, 09:52
Why is the gallardo slower then the M6 if its weighs less and has more power? Is it the gearing?

RS-Kicker
November 7th, 2006, 10:11
Why is the gallardo slower then the M6 if its weighs less and has more power? Is it the gearing?

Four wheel drive? :brag:

Can be good, can be bad.

Lateknight
November 7th, 2006, 14:54
The FSI V10 should have 500hp. Is the V10 really gonna be worth an extra
20-30K more for 60 extra horse power? The Gallardo has 520hp but will be upgraded to 550 for 08. Audi needs to give the R8 V10 500hp to compete with the M6(507hp 383ft) SL55(510hp 531ft) Viper(515hp 535ft). I also guessing that the torque will be around 350ft because the Gallardo is at 376ft.

I expect the torque to be similar as the 5.2 in the S8 - 398lb/ft (540nm) -it is a larger engine

So thats more than the M5/M6 engine. (383lb/ft)

Remember to create horsepower you've got to get the engine to rev. Bmws V10 goes to 8250rpm (same as RS4 V8). Lambo 5.0 gets to 7800rpm, the current Audi 5.2 runs out of steam at about 7000rpm.

It is a little bit worrying that a Gallardo cannot outsprint an M6 though. (I didn't know that), considering the lighter weight and similar outputs. :(

RXBG
November 7th, 2006, 15:08
disagree 100%

the torque will be about the same. the V10 R8 will weigh at least 400 pounds less than the M6. the M6 makes only 20 more hp. why would the R8 be slower?

an R8 with a 480 hp engine will def be faster. look, the V8 will likely pull 0-60 times in the 4.2 second range. that is already faster than an M6. although the M6 will catch and pass the V8 R8 at higher speeds it will never be able to catch the V10, which will have gobs more torque. and the V10 will pull 0-60 times of 4.0 seconds flat....

yikes!

this R8 is really special. it seems to be 90% as fast as the gallardo, with almost 100 fewer horses......... i am sure it makes 440 horses. even then......there is a je ne se qua about the whole thing.........


:vhmmm:

Erik
November 7th, 2006, 15:24
One of the reasons why the M5/M6 is so efficient is the SMG gearbox that keeps the engine just where it is supposed to be. Hence a lot of power to the wheels.

dsts6
November 7th, 2006, 15:46
so the gallardo has an e gear system, wouldn't that make it faster
Doesn't the 5 liter rev over 8000?

Speedou
November 7th, 2006, 16:21
so the gallardo has an e gear system, wouldn't that make it faster
Doesn't the 5 liter rev over 8000?

It's still missing one gear...

Toto89
November 7th, 2006, 16:33
Perhaps all of you're right but the fact that Audi won't have a real sport car over 500hp is very dissappointing.And Gallardo??Once the R8 could get "only" 420hp to be slower than Lambo but also the V10 should be slower???Audi fare ill again(don't know if it's right in English or not:p ) in VAG:(
I can't understand how can VW wish Audi to beat BMW in this conditions.

Benman
November 7th, 2006, 17:14
Perhaps all of you're right but the fact that Audi won't have a real sport car over 500hp is very dissappointing.

All joking aside, I completely understand where you and Leadfoot are coming from. 480 sounds dissapointing when compared to a number like 500 just as 380 isn't 400. But remember that the 911TT makes only 480 as well, yet look how fast that is in a straight line. I agree that 500 would be better (especially when the next RS 6 will make 580!!! but it will prove to be enough I think. Time will tell if it will really be "only" 480 or not...

Keep the faith.:thumb:

Ben:addict:

quattro Gmbh
November 7th, 2006, 17:28
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3258/img1661ye7.jpg

the speedometer has 350 km/h on it. what does that mean:jlol:

m3fan
November 7th, 2006, 18:16
I thought that the Gallardo was faster then the M6 to 60mhp. 0-60 3.9 Gallardo SE, M6 0-60 4.1(euro spec.) 4.5(U.S. spec.). The M6 however traps a little better, I think. Off the line the R8 should be faster then the "U.S. spec" M6.

Leadfoot
November 7th, 2006, 18:26
Agreed it should be quicker to 60mph, but when was the last time you seen a race stop after 60mph, more likely to add a one on to the front of that figure. In that case I think the R8 will be in trouble.

grant
November 7th, 2006, 19:17
But remember that the 911TT makes only 480 as well, yet look how fast that is in a straight line.
Yeah, but the 997TT has WAY more torque (all over the rev range) than any n/a 5.2L V10 is going to have...

sticky
November 7th, 2006, 23:50
I expect the torque to be similar as the 5.2 in the S8 - 398lb/ft (540nm) -it is a larger engine

So thats more than the M5/M6 engine. (383lb/ft)

Remember to create horsepower you've got to get the engine to rev. Bmws V10 goes to 8250rpm (same as RS4 V8). Lambo 5.0 gets to 7800rpm, the current Audi 5.2 runs out of steam at about 7000rpm.

It is a little bit worrying that a Gallardo cannot outsprint an M6 though. (I didn't know that), considering the lighter weight and similar outputs. :(
The gallardo motor revs past 8k, don't know where you get your info.

Even if the 5.2 makes just slightly more torque it doesn't matter. The torque multiplication through the range is greater with the 7 speed on the M5/M6.

sticky
November 7th, 2006, 23:53
disagree 100%

the torque will be about the same. the V10 R8 will weigh at least 400 pounds less than the M6. the M6 makes only 20 more hp. why would the R8 be slower?

an R8 with a 480 hp engine will def be faster. look, the V8 will likely pull 0-60 times in the 4.2 second range. that is already faster than an M6. although the M6 will catch and pass the V8 R8 at higher speeds it will never be able to catch the V10, which will have gobs more torque. and the V10 will pull 0-60 times of 4.0 seconds flat....

yikes!

this R8 is really special. it seems to be 90% as fast as the gallardo, with almost 100 fewer horses......... i am sure it makes 440 horses. even then......there is a je ne se qua about the whole thing.........


:vhmmm:
Why would the R8 be slower? I don't know, because the gallardo is? AWD saps power at higher speeds. The M5/M6 have a 7 speed and rwd. The M5/M6 motor revs higher. Weight doesn't mean as much once rolling.

And for the people quoting 0-60 numbers, who cares? An AWD car will always have better 0-60, on the autobahn and at higher speeds the M cars rule.

Audi needs to stop the BS and put the new RS6 motor (twin turbo v10) in the R8 and lay the smackdown on everyone. Instead of holding the R8 back audi needs to make it a legend. I won't give a crap about a 911 turbo or anything for that matter if they just put the twin turbo v10 in it. Audi would then get the respect it deserves.

Lateknight
November 8th, 2006, 00:37
The gallardo motor revs past 8k, don't know where you get your info.

Even if the 5.2 makes just slightly more torque it doesn't matter. The torque multiplication through the range is greater with the 7 speed on the M5/M6.

Correct,.. the Gallardos max power is at 7800rpm, not what it revs to - my mistake. Making its max power in about the same rpms as the Beemer V10.

I'd like to hear your explanation of 'Torque multiplication through the range' though.
Are you suggesting the Beemers lower geared?

sticky
November 8th, 2006, 03:30
Correct,.. the Gallardos max power is at 7800rpm, not what it revs to - my mistake. Making its max power in about the same rpms as the Beemer V10.

I'd like to hear your explanation of 'Torque multiplication through the range' though.
Are you suggesting the Beemers lower geared?


Exactly, it is effectively lower geared in each gear. Having an extra gear it allows more torque under the curve in each gear. Gear multiplications only goes so far however, but on a 200 mph car that has all its power at 6k and up 7 gears make sense.

The gallardo was geared terribly. The pre- 06 models that is, hitting 60+ in first gear. The new SE with 520 hp supposedly is right there with the M5/M6. Still makes you wonder why it needs new gearing and extra hp just to keep pace with a much heavier car. The M5 v10 seems to be a bit more impressive.

RS6 Vigilante
November 30th, 2006, 04:01
Has there not been rumors floating around about a possible R8 V12 TDI version?

Leadfoot
November 30th, 2006, 11:49
Has there not been rumors floating around about a possible R8 V12 TDI version?

Yes and from more than one source.:D

noushy
December 1st, 2006, 05:25
The M6 does 60 in 4.1 according to car and driver. That is with the launch control. As for all around driving, the SMG shifts faster than any automatic, and much faster than a driver with a manual. That in and of itself shaves time off an acceleration run. Again, two different cars with different purposes. The M6 is a GT/Luxury Coupe, the 911, Gallardo, are sports cars, the R8 more towards sports than GT. And the BMW v10 is actually a jewel, beautifully made, and proves it with winning the engine of the year award two times in a row (I think three now). The R8 needs at least 500hp, and the all wheel drive robs the engine of power (increased friction in the drivetrain) and added weight. I needs more like 550hp (tt v10), and I doubt Audi will do that because of the backlash from Lamborghini. I love the R8, actually all Audis, but somehow the deal with Lambo is going to hurt Audi in many ways.

Noushy

Leadfoot
December 1st, 2006, 12:23
An M6 doing 0-60mph in 4.1 seconds, that time was most likely done on a drag strip and shouldn't count. As for the R8 needing more than 500hp, yes if it's to beat the M6 in a drag racing but the R8 is not the kind of car which needs to satisfy a man's ego, leave that to the M6 and the old school Amecian muscle cars to do that.

The only reason I believe the R8 should have at least the same power as the M6 is the fact that the R8 is the top of the tree, the most sporty of all Audis and as such shouldn't be any less than it's Germany rivals with the exclusion of Porsche which has always rowed it's own boat and doesn't need headline numbers to sell it's cars, especially it's most expensive one.

m3fan
December 1st, 2006, 18:07
The M6 does 60 in 4.1 according to car and driver. That is with the launch control. As for all around driving, the SMG shifts faster than any automatic, and much faster than a driver with a manual. That in and of itself shaves time off an acceleration run. Again, two different cars with different purposes. The M6 is a GT/Luxury Coupe, the 911, Gallardo, are sports cars, the R8 more towards sports than GT. And the BMW v10 is actually a jewel, beautifully made, and proves it with winning the engine of the year award two times in a row (I think three now). The R8 needs at least 500hp, and the all wheel drive robs the engine of power (increased friction in the drivetrain) and added weight. I needs more like 550hp (tt v10), and I doubt Audi will do that because of the backlash from Lamborghini. I love the R8, actually all Audis, but somehow the deal with Lambo is going to hurt Audi in many ways.

Noushy

I think the 0-60 4.1 for the M6 was the one with the euro launch control. Other mags have posted 0-60 4.5. Audi really needs at least 500hp to compete with the other guys. Yes the 997 turbo has only 480hp but it also has 450ft(500 w/sports chro.)

buyalemon
December 1st, 2006, 23:01
I would prefer the old RS6+ 480 bhp V8 compared to a 480 bhp V10 ...I also prefer the sound of a V8 compared to a V10

noushy
December 1st, 2006, 23:34
I have to agree with the sound overall. My friends find the sound of the RS6 much meaner, and more in tune with a sports car. The M6 at low speed is ok, at high rpm, has a race car like (ie formula 1 car like) sound. Not bad, just different. As for power, the R8 really needs more than 420, especially at that price point. The maserati coupe gets away with it (due to the ferrari designed engine), but even that or the Vantage V8, both are really entry models to more expensive cars (ie. F430 or DB9). The R8 should be the showplace car, the flagship car for Audi, and they dropped the ball in that department. In my mind because of the gallardo. The R8 will not depreciate as badly as the gallardo, and will be much more exclusive, they should have given it more. As for me, I will wait for the RS6, it just makes more sense.

Noushy

gnomik007
December 2nd, 2006, 22:25
As for me, I will wait for the RS6, it just makes more sense.

Noushy



I can't wait to get my hands on MY next Audi,but R8 or RS6?This question bothers me and I am very interested on what engine RS6 will actually get.If Audi go the proper RS way like with last RS6 engine,turbos should give the car easily the pace of the R8 but with lots of space for family and friends and pets and etc, which in my opinion is more, but of course I say it with understanding that these cars are completely different in the purpose.I absolutely like R8 with its original design and 21st century technology,but for me I think the decision totaly depends on Audi's choice of the engine for the next real BEAST.

Leadfoot
December 2nd, 2006, 22:45
I can't wait to get my hands on MY next Audi,but R8 or RS6?This question bothers me and I am very interested on what engine RS6 will actually get.If Audi go the proper RS way like with last RS6 engine,turbos should give the car easily the pace of the R8 but with lots of space for family and friends and pets and etc, which in my opinion is more, but of course I say it with understanding that these cars are completely different in the purpose.I absolutely like R8 with its original design and 21st century technology,but for me I think the decision totaly depends on Audi's choice of the engine for the next real BEAST.


This statement is used a lot, 'Real BEAST'. Now has anyone hear of the M5 being mentioned in the same way, :vhmmm: ................ no, well me neither. Says a lot for what people think about this great car and engine.

Leadfoot
December 11th, 2006, 22:09
It has been stated that the v10 has been delayed. According to Audi sales staff the reason given is the Gallardo is not due to get a power increase until mid-2008 which would mean a R8v10 would all but match the performance and all for £30K less.

Also to date they have no customer info on the A5 which is due for release sometime May/June '07, all they could confirm was that it will be launched with a 3.2v6(255hp) and a 4.2v8(350hp). This v8 is not the S5, so something special is to be expected. :jlol:

Iceman reckons the S5 will get the 420hp from the RS4, I reckon this might be nearer the truth than even he thinks.

m3fan
December 12th, 2006, 00:34
I read somewhere that said the 08 Gallardo would be bump up to 550 from it's current 520hp. Would that mean the V10 R8 get 500hp or 520? Also would the torque go up from the 5.2 fsi 398ft?

The RS6
December 14th, 2006, 21:37
http://www.autospies.com/news/Audi-R8-Nurburgring-information-leaked-10665/
Check This Out

RXBG
December 15th, 2006, 22:51
will start with a V6 and also have a V8 option..... given it's larger size could the V10 make it into the S version???????

i think the RS4 engine is too specialized and made by qmbh only- to be in the S5.

Cale24
December 16th, 2006, 23:12
I'm amazed so many people are keen on the rumoured bi-turbo V10 in the next RS6. To me, it seems like a desperate cop-out in the We Must Beat BMWs Power game to bolt turbos on to such a fantastic N/a motor. I would love to see a 5.2 550 hp NA V10 in the RS6, and more aluminium being used to keep weight down, bringing power-to-weight up enough to match an M5 in a straight line and beat it on a track. Leave the boosting to Mercedes I say.

And put that same motor into the R8. Lamborghini's will still sell.

MR USER
December 18th, 2006, 23:39
I'm amazed so many people are keen on the rumoured bi-turbo V10 in the next RS6. To me, it seems like a desperate cop-out in the We Must Beat BMWs Power game to bolt turbos on to such a fantastic N/a motor. I would love to see a 5.2 550 hp NA V10 in the RS6, and more aluminium being used to keep weight down, bringing power-to-weight up enough to match an M5 in a straight line and beat it on a track. Leave the boosting to Mercedes I say.

And put that same motor into the R8. Lamborghini's will still sell.

Sooo true. well said... it summarises the concept of sportiness.

MAKE IT POWERFUL, N/A AND LIGHT!!!

noushy
December 19th, 2006, 00:34
I have said the same thing many times. Audi needs to be innovative as well as playing the horsepower war. Pretty much 500hp is the minimum in todays supersedan/super GT category. Audi needs to use more aluminum, cf, keep quattro, and drop at least 200-300lbs.

Peace.

quattro Gmbh
December 19th, 2006, 01:25
s6 weighs more than 2000 kg which is not good so they should focus on the weight instead of more and more power.

520-530 hp would be alright.

420 hp is ok for r8.

El_cucaracha
December 19th, 2006, 09:21
i'll be really happy if The S version of R8 V10 will have Twin-turbo like RS6...

Iceman
February 9th, 2007, 23:57
I'm mostly have it right.
Audi R8 5.2 V10 FSI 480 HP. :jlol:
Executive Vice President Johan de Nysschen Audi Boss of America Confirms R8 V10 with 480hp In Interview.

Hans.

sticky
February 10th, 2007, 00:14
i'll be really happy if The S version of R8 V10 will have Twin-turbo like RS6...
We all wish, but then the problem arises as to what to do with the gallardo.

I am just wondering if the R8 v10 5.2 will be quicker than todays gallardo. 480 hp for the 5.2 v10 doesn't sound right at all, I hope that isn't the case, why not stick with the 100 hp per liter?

BSR
February 10th, 2007, 05:16
How about this?...

Give the Gallardo AND the RS6 a TTV10 with some Serious power. (of course the G'do would have to have a few more ponies squeezed out)

Then a non boosted V10 version of the R8 can be set free. 500+ ponies.

(Then, the gd Murcielago would probably need another power bump as well i suppose. )

RB

SuperstarDriver
February 10th, 2007, 09:06
R8 it won't have 480HP, but 520HP with the V10 on actual Gallardo or the beast from Le Mans of 6.0l TDI 500HP but way more torque than the future Gallardo...1000NM of creamy torque!480Hp is a bullshit...the new R8 will actually have at least 500HP so get over boys...that rumors of 480HP is a crap!

Auto
February 10th, 2007, 13:40
I'm mostly have it right.
Audi R8 5.2 V10 FSI 480 HP. :jlol:
Executive Vice President Johan de Nysschen Audi Boss of America Confirms R8 V10 with 480hp In Interview.

Hans.

V10 480HP sounds correct.
60HP will make diffrence and same thing with the V10 a whole diffrent caractere.

Just for an example I drove the 330i 258HP and the 325i 218HP couple months ago first the 330i was fast so I wanted to try the 325i, 40HP less I thought that won't make much diffrence in performence but I was so wrooong, the 325i was so much slower and felt tierd. The 330i felt like a whole diffrent car, from that time I've stopped hooking up my self on the HPs becasue there is so much more than that which effects how a car will run.

SuperstarDriver
February 10th, 2007, 14:09
but even though the new R8 with V10 or V12 TDI will not be lauched until the new Gallardon will come...and so i just said...the new R8 will definetely have at least 500HP...i will ask again my friend from Audi to tell me exactly how will be!

Leadfoot
February 10th, 2007, 14:55
If the RS6 is getting 550hp with either N/A or turbos then the R8 will only need 480~500hp to still be a little quicker in acceleration and top speed. Already it has been established that the R8 is well ahead of the mainstream competition (BMW M6 and AMG SL55) for handlings, feel, driving ability & appeal and it reckoned to be the match of the 997 in all of these but with more class.

VAG don't need the R8 to be the quickest, they've been there and done that with the Veyron.

SuperstarDriver
February 10th, 2007, 21:48
Audi is doing this because of showing BMW what is capable of when they built the best looking supercar and best handlling on the Earth...and the interios is way out from this world, even forward to the materials used by Mercedes Benz interiors...so Audi did again with style!R8 will not have sub 500HP for sure, is a fact not my statement, i heard this from a lot of people and editors from different magazines so i'm not wrong!And the other thing Audi prooved that 4WD beat the crap of RWD BMW traction even on handlling and sportivity...30/70 and 0/100 is mother of all tractions on this planet!

sticky
February 10th, 2007, 23:03
If the RS6 is getting 550hp with either N/A or turbos then the R8 will only need 480~500hp to still be a little quicker in acceleration and top speed. Already it has been established that the R8 is well ahead of the mainstream competition (BMW M6 and AMG SL55) for handlings, feel, driving ability & appeal and it reckoned to be the match of the 997 in all of these but with more class.

VAG don't need the R8 to be the quickest, they've been there and done that with the Veyron.
I don't think that is 100% accurate. Even if the R8 would have 500 peak hp with an NA V10 it would not have the same horsepower under the curve due to the torque difference with an RS6 with a twin turbo V10.

SuperstarDriver
February 11th, 2007, 00:38
of course R8 will have different power than the new RS6 and different torque pikes because R8 will be normal aspirated V10 and RS6 bi-turbo V10, is the same engine but different construction!

Leadfoot
February 11th, 2007, 07:56
I don't think that is 100% accurate. Even if the R8 would have 500 peak hp with an NA V10 it would not have the same horsepower under the curve due to the torque difference with an RS6 with a twin turbo V10.

A RS6 with 550hp would have a power to weight ratio of around 285hp/ton while the R8 should be around 300hp/ton. I know that is only a small difference but less frontal area should help the R8 maintain an advantage. If the RS6 is twin-turboed it will have a much better in-gear times when combined with it's auto gearbox.

But anyway they are two different cars in two totally different markets.

jmk
February 12th, 2007, 16:05
I agree with RXBG- the R has a certain je ne sais qoi that makes it much more desirable and in a different league than the M6 and I am guessing that Audi will bring the V10 R8 to market with 500 bhp. The normally aspirated V10 will be much more reliable that the twin turbo RS6 engine and will be easier to keep cool.
The sound will be spine tingling.......

SoCal
February 13th, 2007, 07:13
Just for an example I drove the 330i 258HP and the 325i 218HP couple months ago first the 330i was fast so I wanted to try the 325i, 40HP less I thought that won't make much diffrence in performence but I was so wrooong, the 325i was so much slower and felt tierd. The 330i felt like a whole diffrent car, from that time I've stopped hooking up my self on the HPs becasue there is so much more than that which effects how a car will run.

Good point. There is a lot more than HP to what makes a car run. In this case, though, the HP difference between those two models is a little more than you state. Just comparing the 330i and 325i, the 330i has not only higher horsepower (272 v 218 hp - which is a 40 kW difference but 54 more hp). It also has greater torque (315 v 250 Nm), thanks to a larger displacement engine (3.0 v 2.5l - both bore and stroke are bigger), and slightly different gearing for a lower final drive ratio. With all that increased power, torque and leverage, and only a little more weight, it is not surprising that the 330i accelerates significantly faster than the 325i. Not even close, in fact.

There's no substitute for displacement.:incar:

PeterJohn
February 13th, 2007, 18:39
Horsepower was invented in 1872 by James Watt. He was working on steam engines for coal mines, and asked to be payed 1/3 of the savings the mine owners got from using his engines. As most mines used ponies to pull the coal up from the mine, he invented a unit that tells you how much work a coal mine pony does in a minute, during a 4h working shift. Work is; pulling up a weight at a certain speed. He then estimated that a horse was 50% stronger than a pony, and the horsepower was born. One horse is capable of 1hp of work.

When translated to an engine, you have to imagine that the engine is rotating a resisting force on a lever. The "work" that this requires is equal to the work that the horse does, when it pulls up a certain weight at a certain speed. An engine itself is a lever that rotates at a certain rpm. In an engine, horsepower is "(rpm x torque)/constant". The constant depends on the units you are using. Hp is never, ever, measured. It is calculated from torque at a certain rpm.

The problem:
So horsepower is the ability to produce force at a certain speed. The 'work' it can do. Two horses will pull up a weight twice as fast as one horse. Or a weight twice as heavy. And that's the problem with horsepower. You don't know if it's twice as fast, or twice as heavy. The number doesn't say.

With proper gearing, an engine that produces a lot of torque at a low rpm can perform just as well as one that produces a small amount of torque at a high rpm. In fact, if you factor in the air resistance, more torque will do better. But horsepower is calculated with rpms, and rpms are expressed in thousands (as opposed to torque). So the engine with low torque at high rpms will generate a bigger hp number. That's why bike engines get a high peak horsepower number from relatively small engines. But that doesn't mean these are powerful engines, b/c in a vehicle with the weight of a car they would be useless.

Especially the peak hp number has nothing to do with acceleration. You can get some vague idea of the powerband, assuming it has a powerband. If might as well be an engine that only produces torque at that particular rpm.
At half the rpm of the peak hp, the engine generates half the horsepowers (assuming torque is constant). The car will accelerate just as fast at that point, with only half the horspower.

What really matters is the torque curve. The 'powerband'. Peak numbers are useless. You want a lot of torque, over a lot of rpms. Hp combines these two numbers, but you don't know which is which.

Horsepower is a great marketing tool though. The bigger the number, the better the engine. And it makes people think it has the power of numerous horses.
The avarage horse manages about 15hp for short periods, and less than 1hp for long periods. That is the amount of weight it can pull up, measured over a certain distance, in a certain time. Compared to the imaginairy horse of James Watt.

In relation to this thread, you are discussion hp numbers as if they indicate the performance of the engine. They indicate the "work" the engine does, at a certain rpm. It tells you very little about how the engine will perform as part of the drivetrain in a certain vehicle. It gives you a vague idea at best.

RXBG
February 13th, 2007, 20:13
excellent work , man

i like your quote too. i might be nice to the first bmw i see today.

:)

TTombo
February 13th, 2007, 21:27
Does anyone know if the V12 Diesel engine from the Q7 will fit into the R8? Especially considering Audi's current racing ethos.

SoCal
February 14th, 2007, 08:46
PeterJohn,

Yes, very nicely said, and I like your tag line, too. :0:

The main thing I like about my RS6 engine is the high flat power band... lots of torque over a wide range of RPMs. That, not the high horsepower, is what gives it the strong feel of raw power that just keeps on pulling. :addict:

When accelerating in any gear in any car, the driver feels torque, not horsepower. Period. I agree with you completely, and that was the main point behind my prior post on the 3-series BMW model comparison.

The push-back-in-the-seat feel is not always a reliable indicator of how fast the car is really accelerating...or, more precisely, of how long it can continue to accelerate (which results in top speed, where horsepower matters a great deal). Gearing, which is related to where on the power band peak torque occurs, also makes a difference. (Turbos and turbo lag further complicate this, but they don't change the physics.)

The constant in the formula, by the way, is 5252 (which is Mr. Watt's fault), so at 5252 rpm horsepower and torque are equal.

Horsepower = (Torque x RPM)/5252

So? Torque measures force (how much the car pulls). Horsepower measures, well, power (how long the car pulls).

It's better to make torque at high rpms than at low rpms, because you can take advantage of gearing. As engine speed rises, horsepower rises rapidly (and passes peak torque, crossing the torque curve) until torque falls off at the top end faster than the increase in rpms, and hp falls. In general, engines with higher peak horsepower produce greater torque at high rpms. With that, you can pull longer without needing to shift to maintain torque, so that helps acceleration. If a car lacks high end torque, then the driver needs to up-shift sooner, and more often, to take advantage of higher torque at lower rpms in the next gear. Acceleration suffers. So, horsepower influences acceleration and of course matters a great deal for top speed.

In short, I agree that peak torque and the shape of the power band matter much more than peak horsepower. But horsepower is still a useful measure of engine performance when taken in context.

Leadfoot
February 14th, 2007, 11:16
What PeterJohn is talking about not only makes sense but it's one of the reasons why so many manufacturers are looking closely at the new Torotrack gearbox. It basically holds the maximum torque revs for acceleration, no gears as such. Or to put it another way, if to accerelated with a part throttle the engine would only need to rev to 1500rpm right from 0-100mph, just think how relaxing that would be.

I think you will all find this very interesting.

http://www.torotrak.com/automotive/cars/

SuperstarDriver
February 15th, 2007, 14:13
someone posted that M6 beats R8 at a drag race and on the circuit..yeah?really?how stupid is that?R8 is way more faster than the M6...7:55s on the biggest strongest meannest circuit of all time...the Nurbugring Nordschleiffe...M6 did in 8:07.76 152.041 km/h -- BMW M6, 507 PS/1761 kg, Prinz Luitpold von Bayern (AutoBild 02/06)...ahhh BMW with RWD to do an Audi?Yes and i'm a preast...:))Even RS4 beat the crap of M6...7:58 --- 156.652 km/h -- Audi RS4 4.2 V8 FSI, 420 PS/ 1650 kg, Frank Stippler, (10/05) and you tell me that M6 is faster than even the most hardcore beast on Audi range, the allmighty R8?!Ha...be real man...Audi si way more faster than BMW cars on every statement...so shtttt...
and also i would like to say that the new R8 will have definetely 500HP from the V10 5.2l or from the V12 TDI beastr with more torque than an small airplane:))The information i posted is from Ingolstadd forum from a friend who actually was there to hear this...

M!
February 15th, 2007, 20:40
someone posted that M6 beats R8 at a drag race and on the circuit..yeah?really?how stupid is that?R8 is way more faster than the M6...7:55s on the biggest strongest meannest circuit of all time...the Nurbugring Nordschleiffe...M6 did in 8:07.76 152.041 km/h -- BMW M6, 507 PS/1761 kg, Prinz Luitpold von Bayern (AutoBild 02/06)...ahhh BMW with RWD to do an Audi?Yes and i'm a preast...:))Even RS4 beat the crap of M6...7:58 --- 156.652 km/h -- Audi RS4 4.2 V8 FSI, 420 PS/ 1650 kg, Frank Stippler, (10/05) and you tell me that M6 is faster than even the most hardcore beast on Audi range, the allmighty R8?!Ha...be real man...Audi si way more faster than BMW cars on every statement...so shtttt...
and also i would like to say that the new R8 will have definetely 500HP from the V10 5.2l or from the V12 TDI beastr with more torque than an small airplane:))The information i posted is from Ingolstadd forum from a friend who actually was there to hear this...

We get it, you hate BMW, but can you keep your language at a more adult level.
And as far as i know, Frank Stipplers rekord is not official, the Official RS4 time set by Sport Auto 06/06 on the ring is 8.09 min.
And where did you get 7.55min time for the R8?
Wait untill Sport Auto drive it around the ring for a "officiall" time.

SuperstarDriver
February 15th, 2007, 20:46
official time?hmm...that's the official time man..and bmw yes...really sucks...

M!
February 15th, 2007, 20:53
official time?hmm...that's the official time man..and bmw yes...really sucks...

set by who?

Leadfoot
February 15th, 2007, 20:57
M!,

I couldn't agree more, I'm not a lover of Beemers but I still admire their design and commitment to rwd no matter how mislead it is.

Correct, the RS4's time is 8:09 as is the M6's. Both it's 7:58 and the R8's 7:55 are unofficial, but I am unsure if it was Stippler who drove the R8 to it's time.

Why read to much into these times anyway, they mean very little in the real world and not tell how easy the time was achieved. I doubt the R8v8 will match the M6 in acceleration, though the R8v10 will stand a better chance, but again it's a tall order.

M!
February 15th, 2007, 21:49
M!,

I couldn't agree more, I'm not a lover of Beemers but I still admire their design and commitment to rwd no matter how mislead it is.

Correct, the RS4's time is 8:09 as is the M6's. Both it's 7:58 and the R8's 7:55 are unofficial, but I am unsure if it was Stippler who drove the R8 to it's time.

Why read to much into these times anyway, they mean very little in the real world and not tell how easy the time was achieved. I doubt the R8v8 will match the M6 in acceleration, though the R8v10 will stand a better chance, but again it's a tall order.

I agree.
R8 will have problem leaving M6 behind. M6 is killing fast over 100km/h.
rolling start R8 doesent match the M6. The M6 will not humiliate the R8, but it will be slitly faster no doubt about that.

Onlythe V10 will distroy the M6...

sticky
February 16th, 2007, 02:59
I agree.
R8 will have problem leaving M6 behind. M6 is killing fast over 100km/h.
rolling start R8 doesent match the M6. The M6 will not humiliate the R8, but it will be slitly faster no doubt about that.

Onlythe V10 will distroy the M6...
The v10 R8 won't destroy the M6 in a straight line if that is what you are getting at.

SuperstarDriver
February 16th, 2007, 17:44
R8 even with the actuall V8 is destroying M6 but with the V10 it will humiliate M6 so nasty that M6 will cry like a baby...should i tell u again that 4WD is the best sport traction in the world and never ever loose power against super supraviration and burnin' tires like RWD?or i will say again...RS4 beat the crap M6 and R8 is 2sec faster than the RS4 so we all know what will happen when M6 will be against R8 on a test drive...humiliation will arrive...

M!
February 16th, 2007, 17:44
The v10 R8 won't destroy the M6 in a straight line if that is what you are getting at.

Ok. distroy is wrong word.
But if not the V10 can beat M6, then what is al the hype about?
Have Audi built a beachracer?

sticky
February 17th, 2007, 07:34
Ok. distroy is wrong word.
But if not the V10 can beat M6, then what is al the hype about?
Have Audi built a beachracer?
The hype is about a mid engine sports car to bridge the gap between the exotics and the 911 with great styling and exclusivity. Trust me, I am dissapointed with the straight line power but the fact is the vehicle is extremely well rounded.

Take a look at how the gallardo stacks up to the M6 accleration wise to give you an idea of how the R8 v10 will fair, edge goes to RWD and 7 gears as speeds rise.

sticky
February 17th, 2007, 07:35
R8 even with the actuall V8 is destroying M6 but with the V10 it will humiliate M6 so nasty that M6 will cry like a baby...should i tell u again that 4WD is the best sport traction in the world and never ever loose power against super supraviration and burnin' tires like RWD?or i will say again...RS4 beat the crap M6 and R8 is 2sec faster than the RS4 so we all know what will happen when M6 will be against R8 on a test drive...humiliation will arrive...
Wow... just wow, take your pills.

RXBG
February 17th, 2007, 17:15
Wow... just wow, take your pills.


sticky, be nice.

Leadfoot
February 17th, 2007, 17:43
The R8 will be a little quicker than the RS4 and I still believe it will be quicker to 160km/h than the M6 but alas after this speed the extra grunt of that almighty 5L v10 will see the M6 put ahead and up to it's limiter stay in front.:rolleyes:

Only to see the R8 stroll by and walk off into the distance. :bye: God, how I love the 155mph limiter on BMWs.:hihi:

M!
February 17th, 2007, 20:16
The R8 will be a little quicker than the RS4 and I still believe it will be quicker to 160km/h than the M6 but alas after this speed the extra grunt of that almighty 5L v10 will see the M6 put ahead and up to it's limiter stay in front.:rolleyes:

Only to see the R8 stroll by and walk off into the distance. :bye: God, how I love the 155mph limiter on BMWs.:hihi:

You know that 90% of the M6 bayers have their limiter taken of ?
M6 does 330km/h and the V8R8 does 301 riht?

Leadfoot
February 17th, 2007, 20:43
You know that 90% of the M6 bayers have their limiter taken of ?
M6 does 330km/h and the V8R8 does 301 riht?

Well if I lived in Germany and there was roads without limits than I too would remove the limiter. But it's still a problem with the warranty so for those who don't want to void this then the R8 will be the quicker.

But this advantage that an unlimited M6 will have only appeals to straight roads. Does anyone remember the Top Gear test on the Isle of Man with a 997S, Aston Martin and the M6, now how much what the M6 behind the 997's time.

M!
February 17th, 2007, 21:02
Well if I lived in Germany and there was roads without limits than I too would remove the limiter. But it's still a problem with the warranty so for those who don't want to void this then the R8 will be the quicker.

But this advantage that an unlimited M6 will have only appeals to straight roads. Does anyone remember the Top Gear test on the Isle of Man with a 997S, Aston Martin and the M6, now how much what the M6 behind the 997's time.

I dont remember exactly, but the M6 was a couple of sek behind. But hey, its no shame to lose against a Porsche.
I think R8 would be quicker than M6 on the same road, but still not beat the Porsche.

KresoF1
February 17th, 2007, 21:07
There is an 07ME option for M6 that delimits top speed to 305km/h with full factory warranty. Price around 2500Euro... Around 90% of current M6 buyers in Europe ordered its car with that option.

I agree with you-after 160km/h M6 will be faster.

BUT, point is track time. R8 needs to be faster then:

-1.14,4min on Hockenheim(Porsche 997S achived by Sport Auto)
-8.03min on the Ring(AM V8 Vantage with Corsas by Sport Auto)

And R8 needs to reach 200km/h in at least 14.9s(factory claim).

This is just my humble opinion...

M!
February 17th, 2007, 21:15
There is an 07ME option for M6 that delimits top speed to 305km/h with full factory warranty. Price around 2500Euro... Around 90% of current M6 buyers in Europe ordered its car with that option.

I agree with you-after 160km/h M6 will be faster.

BUT, point is track time. R8 needs to be faster then:

-1.14,4min on Hockenheim(Porsche 997S achived by Sport Auto)
-8.03min on the Ring(AM V8 Vantage with Corsas by Sport Auto)

And R8 needs to reach 200km/h in at least 14.9s(factory claim).

This is just my humble opinion...

R8 will NOT do the ring under 8 minutes....
And 0-200 between 14.5-15.00 is what we should expect.

Lateknight
February 17th, 2007, 22:49
R8 will NOT do the ring under 8 minutes....

More like you HOPE IT WON'T
otherwise your arguments lost

Gallardos time is 7.52, so it should be close

sticky
February 18th, 2007, 00:36
The R8 will be a little quicker than the RS4 and I still believe it will be quicker to 160km/h than the M6 but alas after this speed the extra grunt of that almighty 5L v10 will see the M6 put ahead and up to it's limiter stay in front.:rolleyes:

Only to see the R8 stroll by and walk off into the distance. :bye: God, how I love the 155mph limiter on BMWs.:hihi:
If it was close to 160 I think we would all be happy. Realistically it is already behind at the 100 mph mark.

Leadfoot
February 18th, 2007, 09:30
If it was close to 160 I think we would all be happy. Realistically it is already behind at the 100 mph mark.

I have read quite a few M6 tests where it's 0-100mph time was 10.4s dropping to 9.6s. Likewise the RS4 has posted times of 10.8s down to 10.2s, and I bet some here can show times lower than that.

The R8 would post times less than 10 seconds for sure and with the Gallardo posting time of 9.0s and less, one must assume that the R8 will get to within half a second of the Gallardo's time.

Sticky, the only thing we can really be sure of is that the R8 won't be able to beat an M6 to 150mph, everything else is up for grabs.

sticky
February 18th, 2007, 10:31
I have read quite a few M6 tests where it's 0-100mph time was 10.4s dropping to 9.6s. Likewise the RS4 has posted times of 10.8s down to 10.2s, and I bet some here can show times lower than that.

The R8 would post times less than 10 seconds for sure and with the Gallardo posting time of 9.0s and less, one must assume that the R8 will get to within half a second of the Gallardo's time.

Sticky, the only thing we can really be sure of is that the R8 won't be able to beat an M6 to 150mph, everything else is up for grabs.
I think we can be sure of the 100 mph as well considering that there have been M6 tests that have dipped into the 8's. I have yet to see an RS4 anywhere in the 9's. The point is, the trap speed difference is 10 mph, once the traction advantage of AWD wears off past 60 that is now the M's advantage.

The first test numbers for the R8 didn't crack the 9's.

Here is to hoping the R8 is really underrated and motortrend tested a copy that wasn't production spec.

Leadfoot
February 18th, 2007, 10:56
I think we can be sure of the 100 mph as well considering that there have been M6 tests that have dipped into the 8's. I have yet to see an RS4 anywhere in the 9's. The point is, the trap speed difference is 10 mph, once the traction advantage of AWD wears off past 60 that is now the M's advantage.

The first test numbers for the R8 didn't crack the 9's.

Here is to hoping the R8 is really underrated and motortrend tested a copy that wasn't production spec.

Interesting, an M6 dipping into the 8's. Even AUTOCAR which is BMW biggest fan in the UK didn't achieve a result like that, their time of 9.6 seconds I reckoned would have been the best time ever, so I was wrong BIG TIME!:rolleyes:

Well on that then Sticky you will possibly be right. There may be the odd test where the R8 might beat an under the weather M6 to a 100mph but this will be few and far between. That is unless the one already tested wasn't at it's best.............here's hoping.:p

Fab
February 18th, 2007, 13:09
Well if I lived in Germany and there was roads without limits than I too would remove the limiter. But it's still a problem with the warranty so for those who don't want to void this then the R8 will be the quicker.

But this advantage that an unlimited M6 will have only appeals to straight roads. Does anyone remember the Top Gear test on the Isle of Man with a 997S, Aston Martin and the M6, now how much what the M6 behind the 997's time.Actually the M6 had exact similar time than the V8 Vantage. Both were 5 sec behind the Carrera S :race:

Leadfoot
February 18th, 2007, 13:48
My point exactly, only people still holding a flame for the M6 are hung up on the acceleration of the R8.

The R8 is competing with only real sportscars like the 997s and it's awd brother, the M6 is only being regarded a rivals by the people I suggested above.

BMW have talked at long length that they are the Utimate Driver's Machine but at present their only recent glory is a car which hasn't been in production for more than 5 years (CSL). Come on BMW put up or shut up.

sticky
February 18th, 2007, 14:42
No one said the M6 was its rival, acceleration times between them were compared.

Everyone knows the 911S is the rival.

BMW put up or shut up? Come on man, getting a little ahead of yourself there. BMW has been making better drivers cars than AUDI for decades and the R8 isn't going to change that. The new M3's will likely be a very good performance match for the R8 for much less money. I can't wait to see how the M3's v8 compares, if it is like the gallardo's v10 vs. the m5's v10 then the BMW motor will be superior.

M!
February 18th, 2007, 16:08
My point exactly, only people still holding a flame for the M6 are hung up on the acceleration of the R8.

The R8 is competing with only real sportscars like the 997s and it's awd brother, the M6 is only being regarded a rivals by the people I suggested above.

BMW have talked at long length that they are the Utimate Driver's Machine but at present their only recent glory is a car which hasn't been in production for more than 5 years (CSL). Come on BMW put up or shut up.

When BMW talk about "The Ultimate Driving Machine" they dont mean just their
M cars or other highperformance bimers.
Even a 318 is "The Ultimate Driver Machine" in its own way by how it comunicate with the driver and how it feels to drive etc. And consider the CSL, even today 5 years after introduction its the fastets Bimmer around the ring, so its shore a magnificent car...

And your right, M6 is not a rival to R8. M6 is more a GT car (like Merc SL, DB9 and moore) but its the time figures we are interrested of here, and M6 is the fastest BMW has today so its normal to comepere it with Audis fastest.

Leadfoot
February 18th, 2007, 17:34
When BMW talk about "The Ultimate Driving Machine" they dont mean just their
M cars or other highperformance bimers.
Even a 318 is "The Ultimate Driver Machine" in its own way by how it comunicate with the driver and how it feels to drive etc. And consider the CSL, even today 5 years after introduction its the fastets Bimmer around the ring, so its shore a magnificent car...

And your right, M6 is not a rival to R8. M6 is more a GT car (like Merc SL, DB9 and moore) but its the time figures we are interrested of here, and M6 is the fastest BMW has today so its normal to comepere it with Audis fastest.

M!,

Get real, only in BMW and their twisted followers minds does BMW cars equal the Ultimate Driving Machine. The almighty M5 with an extra 93hp more than the RS4 was a whole 3 seconds slower around the ring and as for the M6 with it's trick tyres and the extra power could only equal the RS4.

All this statement means is it's the Ultimate advertising slogan to convince people in to believe their bull.

Does Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghini have one, :vhmmm: ahh NO, the cars speak for them selves. The CSL is the most amazing Beemer ever no question about it, but alas ever since it's been down hill all the way, one over-power car after another. The rest of the motoring hierarchy see the need to adopt a rear weight-bias when producing a performance rwd car to help balance the excess of power being produced by car of late why not BMW. They are holding on to an idea that 50/50 is the ultimate when quite clearly it is not, examples being the M5 and M6 two cars that for their power should be able to destroy the RS4 on the track.

Audi are on a roll, that started with the RS4 and has continued with the S8, TT, S3 and come to the pinnacle which is the R8.

:vhmmm: I WONDER DOES BMW HAVE IT'S SLOGAN COPY-RIGHTED.:doh: Silly thought, like Porsche and the others, Audi doesn't need slogans to sell their cars as great to drive, intelligent people know to make the right choice.:D

If Audi were is use a slogan it should be 'POWER THROUGH CONTROL = QUATTRO'

M!
February 18th, 2007, 17:56
M!,

Get real, only in BMW and their twisted followers minds does BMW cars equal the Ultimate Driving Machine. The almighty M5 with an extra 93hp more than the RS4 was a whole 3 seconds slower around the ring and as for the M6 with it's trick tyres and the extra power could only equal the RS4.

All this statement means is it's the Ultimate advertising slogan to convince people in to believe their bull.

Does Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghini have one, :vhmmm: ahh NO, the cars speak for them selves. The CSL is the most amazing Beemer ever no question about it, but alas ever since it's been down hill all the way, one over-power car after another. The rest of the motoring hierarchy see the need to adopt a rear weight-bias when producing a performance rwd car to help balance the excess of power being produced by car of late why not BMW. They are holding on to an idea that 50/50 is the ultimate when quite clearly it is not, examples being the M5 and M6 two cars that for their power should be able to destroy the RS4 on the track.

Audi are on a roll, that started with the RS4 and has continued with the S8, TT, S3 and come to the pinnacle which is the R8.

:vhmmm: I WONDER DOES BMW HAVE IT'S SLOGAN COPY-RIGHTED.:doh: Silly thought, like Porsche and the others, Audi doesn't need slogans to sell their cars as great to drive, intelligent people know to make the right choice.:D

If Audi were is use a slogan it should be 'POWER THROUGH CONTROL = QUATTRO'

Like i said, its not about power and how fast you go around tracks, thats not what they mean with their slogan...
And what about Audis slogan?
"Vorsprung Durch Teknik"? What is Audi so great doing in teknic that others cant do?
Toyota should have that sloga, cuz their progress in elektrik and hydrocars is way ahead of the other manufacturs.

I have nothing against Audi or not do i like BMW moore, but i like BMW.s way of holding on to RW and their strait 6cyl engines.....

quattro Gmbh
February 18th, 2007, 20:31
audi may be faster on the track but ultimate driving machine is not all about track.

it is the sheer driving pleasure which audi lacks. audi must spend more and more 000000$ to get this technology.

quattro Gmbh
February 18th, 2007, 20:41
"Vorsprung Durch Teknik"? What is Audi so great doing in teknic that others cant do?
Toyota should have that sloga, cuz their progress in elektrik and hydrocars is way ahead of the other manufacturs.

nah VAG techonology in fuel cells and electrical powered engines are unrivalled.

Leadfoot
February 18th, 2007, 22:23
audi may be faster on the track but ultimate driving machine is not all about track.

it is the sheer driving pleasure which audi lacks. audi must spend more and more 000000$ to get this technology.

I have had two BMW in the past and I would say none of them had the sheer driving pleasure of all my Audis. If you regard tail out antics and lack of traction driving pleasure than Audi is not for you.

I class driving pleasure the quality of the interior, the sound system, the appearance of the car as important as the feel from the controls and sadly these are the main reasons why I no longer drive BMWs. The look and feel of the interior is nasty and there is enough here to agree with what I would say about the exterior. For me I find them without soul, efficient in their abilities up to a point but nothing more.

I know lots would disagree with my findings, but that is possibly why there is so many car companies out there is satisfy the ones that don't like Audi's way of doing things.

The only car that ever appealed in the same way as Audis do is Porsches but with the introduction of the R8 I no longer require the desire for them now.

sticky
February 19th, 2007, 04:08
audi may be faster on the track but ultimate driving machine is not all about track.

it is the sheer driving pleasure which audi lacks. audi must spend more and more 000000$ to get this technology.
Audi isn't faster around the track so it doesn't matter, BMW has always had superior track vehicles. Audi' has always had heavier, numb, understeering cars. I would say audi's drive a bit more like a mercedes and don't have the steering of feel of a BMW or a porsche.

RWD + lighter weight is the recipe for a track drivers car. The R8 is the first audi to have more weight over the rear than the front.

Leadfoot
February 19th, 2007, 09:08
sticky,

I am at a lose, in what way do BMW have a better track car record over Audi. One example the CSL is better than any previous Audi road car and that is it.

The S3 & R32 are both quicker than the 130i M/Sport (Similar power)

The RS4 is quicker than the M5 and equal to the M6 which has semi-race tyres, oh yes and 93hp more.

The S4 has beaten the M3 by 0.9s around the Top Gear track. Yes the M3 was quicker on the ring, but as this was the Avant which is 120kgs heavier than the saloon it's not a similar example.

I have said on more than one occasion that steering feel is over-rated and this comes from years driving Karts which have the maximum amount of feel. Feel is an Alley on the track were the surface is extremely smooth but on a normal road surface which is rough and bumpy steering feel make for a nervous car when the suspension isn't in perfect tune. Porsche has mastered this, but alas no BMW I have experienced is the equal of a Porsche. Maybe that is what makes the CSL so special.

Anyone and I mean anyone will drive a RS4 or S4 quicker than an M6 or M3 down a given road because they aren't nervous, that builds confidence and help average drivers perform better. If BMW are looking for only the best of drivers to drive their cars than they should change their slogan to something like this 'THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE, ONLY THE ULTIMATE DRIVER APPLY'.

M!
February 19th, 2007, 11:32
A na Audi RS will always offer its driver moore than he can handel, where a M car always demand its driver moore than he/she can deliver.

SuperstarDriver
February 19th, 2007, 13:46
very very impressive statement you all have about this topic especially the one posted by M! about the drivers of Audi and BMW...clever thinking but i must say that i always had been a good driver and wanted ultimate SECURE AND POWERFULL MACHINE ON THE CIRCUIT...i need extrem handlling and security when i'm driving a sportscar because when you have that, you can take more from your car and of course the sensation is way better than oversteering with RWD at high speeds, but those "high speeds" on RWD cars are much much lower than an 4WD Quattro car because the efficieny of a 4WD is maximum on high grade curves that pushes the car to the limit of phisics...for an example i have the test made by Autocar i think (don't remeber cause are too many magazines who tested this cars) with the actual S6,M5 and E63 AMG in which i was amazed by the power of 4WD when the S6 was actually better or equally than the M5 with much lower power of 435HP vs 507HP...that concludes me that even with for example 480HP in the actuall S6 for the future RS6 will kick M5 ass very very nasty even on hard 1-160 accelaration..but we all know that the new RS6 will have more than 560HP so...why somebody could like more BMW less powerfull than an supreme Audi S/RS?(sorry for off topic)...
and about the new R8...if someone doesn't know even know that RS4 beat M6 on the circuit and R8 has the same angine but more aerodynamically and less weight we all know that if a test will be made with R8 vs M6...R8 will humiliate on every single test the M6...no offence but that's the truth...Audi is now and i think will be forever the no.1 Luxury Sportscar maker in the world!!!

Erik
February 19th, 2007, 14:05
A na Audi RS will always offer its driver moore than he can handel, where a M car always demand its driver moore than he/she can deliver.

Bye bye...24 post is enough from you. There are other forums for you I think.

quattro Gmbh
February 19th, 2007, 14:09
'THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE, ONLY THE ULTIMATE DRIVER APPLY'.

umm true but that doesn't change that BMW is the Ultimate Driving Machine. Being an Ultimate Driving Machine requires high technology which according to you is "tail out antics and lack of traction driving".. or whatever i don't know.

what you call "lack on traction driving" is not an incapability of BMW, on the contrary it is a technology that BMW has developed purposely in order to make you feel all body movements of the car through your hands insdie your body, like you are driving your own body, no matter you are few second slower around the track, sheer driving pleasure must be always on.

It is the art of driving which Audi lacks.

Leadfoot
February 19th, 2007, 14:12
A na Audi RS will always offer its driver moore than he can handel, where a M car always demand its driver moore than he/she can deliver.

So to break this statement down.
A na Audi RS will always offer its driver moore than he can handel
A N/A Audi RS has the ability beyond the capabilities of it's drivers, or in other words it's drivers will bottle out long before the car will have reached it's limits.

Where a M car always demand its driver moore than he/she can deliver
But the M car demand a better driver to extract what it is capable of, or in other words if you are not tip-top in your own abilities then the car won't perform.

All correct and which leads me to ask the question why put up with something that only performs when you are good enough, but will ultimately bite back if you are not. Or buy something which only gives you what you require but is capable of so much more for when your abilities improve. :D

Leadfoot
February 19th, 2007, 14:18
Bye bye...24 post is enough from you. There are other forums for you I think.

Nice one Erik, though I do think I was getting through to him.:brag:

As for quattro Gmbh, now that's another story. I am at a lose is to why call yourself quattro Gmbh and show a total dislike for all things Audi, while singing praises for BMW.:eye:

quattro Gmbh
February 19th, 2007, 14:26
I'm a german car fan.

I love Audi so much but can't disrespect BMW or Mercedes.

sticky
February 19th, 2007, 14:32
Bye bye...24 post is enough from you. There are other forums for you I think.
He isn't insulting anyone or being derogatory simply stating his opinion. He should go away because it conflicts with yours? Is your idea of a good automotive forum one where everyone shares the same view? Wow, that would make for great discussions...

sticky
February 19th, 2007, 14:35
So to break this statement down.
A na Audi RS will always offer its driver moore than he can handel
A N/A Audi RS has the ability beyond the capabilities of it's drivers, or in other words it's drivers will bottle out long before the car will have reached it's limits.

Where a M car always demand its driver moore than he/she can deliver
But the M car demand a better driver to extract what it is capable of, or in other words if you are not tip-top in your own abilities then the car won't perform.

All correct and which leads me to ask the question why put up with something that only performs when you are good enough, but will ultimately bite back if you are not. Or buy something which only gives you what you require but is capable of so much more for when your abilities improve. :D
What he was getting at was the M cars require a better driver to get 10/10's whereas the AUDI's are easier to drive and have far more undertseer dialed in.

Maybe you should drive an M car, you don't need to have the last name schumacher to get it to perform. With modern stability control systems it isn't going to bite you in the butt and the car will reward the better driver far more. Go try some power on oversteer with quattro, good luck.

sticky
February 19th, 2007, 14:36
very very impressive statement you all have about this topic especially the one posted by M! about the drivers of Audi and BMW...clever thinking but i must say that i always had been a good driver and wanted ultimate SECURE AND POWERFULL MACHINE ON THE CIRCUIT...i need extrem handlling and security when i'm driving a sportscar because when you have that, you can take more from your car and of course the sensation is way better than oversteering with RWD at high speeds, but those "high speeds" on RWD cars are much much lower than an 4WD Quattro car because the efficieny of a 4WD is maximum on high grade curves that pushes the car to the limit of phisics...for an example i have the test made by Autocar i think (don't remeber cause are too many magazines who tested this cars) with the actual S6,M5 and E63 AMG in which i was amazed by the power of 4WD when the S6 was actually better or equally than the M5 with much lower power of 435HP vs 507HP...that concludes me that even with for example 480HP in the actuall S6 for the future RS6 will kick M5 ass very very nasty even on hard 1-160 accelaration..but we all know that the new RS6 will have more than 560HP so...why somebody could like more BMW less powerfull than an supreme Audi S/RS?(sorry for off topic)...
and about the new R8...if someone doesn't know even know that RS4 beat M6 on the circuit and R8 has the same angine but more aerodynamically and less weight we all know that if a test will be made with R8 vs M6...R8 will humiliate on every single test the M6...no offence but that's the truth...Audi is now and i think will be forever the no.1 Luxury Sportscar maker in the world!!!
Punctuation is your friend.

sticky
February 19th, 2007, 14:43
sticky,

I am at a lose, in what way do BMW have a better track car record over Audi. One example the CSL is better than any previous Audi road car and that is it.

The S3 & R32 are both quicker than the 130i M/Sport (Similar power)

The RS4 is quicker than the M5 and equal to the M6 which has semi-race tyres, oh yes and 93hp more.

The S4 has beaten the M3 by 0.9s around the Top Gear track. Yes the M3 was quicker on the ring, but as this was the Avant which is 120kgs heavier than the saloon it's not a similar example.

I have said on more than one occasion that steering feel is over-rated and this comes from years driving Karts which have the maximum amount of feel. Feel is an Alley on the track were the surface is extremely smooth but on a normal road surface which is rough and bumpy steering feel make for a nervous car when the suspension isn't in perfect tune. Porsche has mastered this, but alas no BMW I have experienced is the equal of a Porsche. Maybe that is what makes the CSL so special.

Anyone and I mean anyone will drive a RS4 or S4 quicker than an M6 or M3 down a given road because they aren't nervous, that builds confidence and help average drivers perform better. If BMW are looking for only the best of drivers to drive their cars than they should change their slogan to something like this 'THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE, ONLY THE ULTIMATE DRIVER APPLY'.

Look, I am not going to discuss the 1 series as it isn't available in the US and I have no experience with it. Plus when discussing performance BMW's, the 1 series is rarely what is brought up in the first place.

The RS4 being quicker than the M5 or M6? Crazy talk, the only tracks where the RS4 can hang with the M5 have to be extremely tight. The RS4 doesn't exactly have a weight advantage over the M6 either and both of the M's are better balanced.

The top gear track is WET! I sure hope an AWD car beats a RWD car on a wet course. The S4 isn't coming near an M3 on a track. I had an M3, I'm not quoting numbers from Top Gear, I know this first hand as does anyone who has ever been on a track with an B6/B7 S4 and an E46 M3. I won't even get into the CSL.

Steering feel is overrated? What are you talking about? What do you think the point of paying the big bucks for a porsche is? You know what the car is doing at all times, and steering feel inspires confidence. I sure can push a car harder when I have great feedback. I would say steering feel is of extreme importance in a sports car.

I can't wait for the E90 M3 to come out to once again set things straight.

Erik
February 19th, 2007, 15:05
He isn't insulting anyone or being derogatory simply stating his opinion. He should go away because it conflicts with yours? Is your idea of a good automotive forum one where everyone shares the same view? Wow, that would make for great discussions...

What's the point of writing "BMW is the best" and nothing else in an Audi forum? How mature is that?

I don't need anymore trolls here, and I think you know what I mean.

The topic is "R8 5.2 V10 FSI" - let's stick to that or this thread is closed.

Leadfoot
February 19th, 2007, 15:22
Look, I am not going to discuss the 1 series as it isn't available in the US and I have no experience with it. Plus when discussing performance BMW's, the 1 series is rarely what is brought up in the first place.

The RS4 being quicker than the M5 or M6? Crazy talk, the only tracks where the RS4 can hang with the M5 have to be extremely tight. The RS4 doesn't exactly have a weight advantage over the M6 either and both of the M's are better balanced.

The top gear track is WET! I sure hope an AWD car beats a RWD car on a wet course. The S4 isn't coming near an M3 on a track. I had an M3, I'm not quoting numbers from Top Gear, I know this first hand as does anyone who has ever been on a track with an B6/B7 S4 and an E46 M3. I won't even get into the CSL.

Steering feel is overrated? What are you talking about? What do you think the point of paying the big bucks for a Porsche is? You know what the car is doing at all times, and steering feel inspires confidence. I sure can push a car harder when I have great feedback. I would say steering feel is of extreme importance in a sports car.

I can't wait for the E90 M3 to come out to once again set things straight.

As the 1series is basically a shortened 3series complete with the same suspension I believe it is very relevant and proves without doubt that BMW aren't all they are cracked up to be.

The S4 vs M3 was on a DRY Top Gear track and again proves that the M3 is not all it's cracked up to be.

The ring is not a tight short circuit, it very long with mostly open curves with drips and humps things which should help in your words well balanced cars and has extremely long straights which again should help the M5/6 with their extra power, but quite plainly doesn't so once again a BMW car is highly over-rated.

Steering feel is over-rated and become a problem when the suspension can't flow with the car and kicks back, this was my point why it works with the Porsche but don't with the BMW or Audi for that matter. Only the TT and the R8 with their magnetic ride suspension come up to the standard that is present in every Porsche.

As I also said steering feel is very important on a track where the surface is extremely smooth as there is little kick back to dilute the signals of what the front wheels are doing, but when the surface is rough and bumpy you can't tell what is really going on so less feel improves your other senses like the seat of your pants. I can tell what the car is doing through this as much as steering feel and as I said Karting gives the kind of feel that no production car will ever provide but to have this amount on the road would be impossible to deal with.

Some people see rwd as a plus over awd and vice-versa, the same applies to steering feel. Just don't be fooled into thinking it's the be all and end all. There's more to a car than steering feel as anyone who has owned a Porsche will know.

Leadfoot
February 19th, 2007, 15:27
What's the point of writing "BMW is the best" and nothing else in an Audi forum? How mature is that?

I don't need anymore trolls here, and I think you know what I mean.

The topic is "R8 5.2 V10 FSI" - let's stick to that or this thread is closed.

Fair point Erik, the matter is close as far as I am concerned. I was only trying to defend my belief about steering feel and why it over-rated.:thumb:

RXBG
February 19th, 2007, 15:47
leadfoot and sticky. i invite one of you to post a rwd VS awd discussion in the off-topic or racing forum. i agree with erik, it is getting a bit off the mark. please.

no more on this issue in this thread, not even apologies or thanks or whatever.

just start a new thread in the appropriate forum so that others can contribute, others who may have a lot to say but have not been able to because they don't know about this polemic you have going.

Leadfoot
February 19th, 2007, 16:24
OK, back on topic.

Does anyone know if the v8 and v10 will be the only models in the range or will there be a v6 or TDi version?

I know quite a few would like to see a v12TDi version but I for one would reckon a v6 would destroy everything Audi are trying to build with this car.

BSR
February 19th, 2007, 19:47
I think that a lot of folks would like to see the 12c V12 in this car, myself included. But, i think it might be too big of an engine to fit.

I would think that Audi 'could' do some real damage with this car w/ a twin turbo V6..... but that could end up with too much hp and torque- so much so that the V8 would get over shadowed. The old 2.7t from the B5 RS4 would make for a faster R8 than the current V8. (Turbo Torque:bow:)

RB

sticky
February 20th, 2007, 03:32
What's the point of writing "BMW is the best" and nothing else in an Audi forum? How mature is that?

I don't need anymore trolls here, and I think you know what I mean.

The topic is "R8 5.2 V10 FSI" - let's stick to that or this thread is closed.
Anyone who is here likes cars, period. If this thread needs to be closed due to auto enthusiasts discussing their points of views this forum shouldn't exist.

BMW came up due to the natural comparison between their v10 and the v10 that will go in the r8.

sticky
February 20th, 2007, 03:37
As the 1series is basically a shortened 3series complete with the same suspension I believe it is very relevant and proves without doubt that BMW aren't all they are cracked up to be.

The S4 vs M3 was on a DRY Top Gear track and again proves that the M3 is not all it's cracked up to be.

The ring is not a tight short circuit, it very long with mostly open curves with drips and humps things which should help in your words well balanced cars and has extremely long straights which again should help the M5/6 with their extra power, but quite plainly doesn't so once again a BMW car is highly over-rated.

Steering feel is over-rated and become a problem when the suspension can't flow with the car and kicks back, this was my point why it works with the Porsche but don't with the BMW or Audi for that matter. Only the TT and the R8 with their magnetic ride suspension come up to the standard that is present in every Porsche.

As I also said steering feel is very important on a track where the surface is extremely smooth as there is little kick back to dilute the signals of what the front wheels are doing, but when the surface is rough and bumpy you can't tell what is really going on so less feel improves your other senses like the seat of your pants. I can tell what the car is doing through this as much as steering feel and as I said Karting gives the kind of feel that no production car will ever provide but to have this amount on the road would be impossible to deal with.

Some people see rwd as a plus over awd and vice-versa, the same applies to steering feel. Just don't be fooled into thinking it's the be all and end all. There's more to a car than steering feel as anyone who has owned a Porsche will know.
Are you seeing different ring numbers than I am? The RS4 doesn't even come close to the CSL, and the M6 is ahead of the RS4.

The top gear Test I saw was on a wet track. But either way, lets put it this way. Do you think a heavier car, with worse balance, that understeers, and has less power to the wheels is going to outhandle a lighter, rwd car, better balanced, with greater acceleration? Come on, think logically here. I beat so many S4's in so many sitautions in my E46 that I lost count. It is common knowledge the S4 is slower in every measurable performance aspect.

I don't see RWD as the be all end all but if we are talking about track performance, it is going to be the preferred setup due to less wait, more power to the wheels, and the abilitiy to correct with power. AWD can do well on a track, but remember AUDI's AWD domination of racing was rally racing not touring. AWD can give someone a lot of confidence and allow them to go faster than they normally would.

sticky
February 20th, 2007, 03:39
I think that a lot of folks would like to see the 12c V12 in this car, myself included. But, i think it might be too big of an engine to fit.

I would think that Audi 'could' do some real damage with this car w/ a twin turbo V6..... but that could end up with too much hp and torque- so much so that the V8 would get over shadowed. The old 2.7t from the B5 RS4 would make for a faster R8 than the current V8. (Turbo Torque:bow:)

RB
Are you referring to the diesel twin turbo v12?

BSR
February 20th, 2007, 06:49
yes, the Diesel 12.

Erik
February 20th, 2007, 09:33
Are you seeing different ring numbers than I am? The RS4 doesn't even come close to the CSL, and the M6 is ahead of the RS4.


The M6 and the RS4 have the same time around Nordschleife (sport auto).
And they are on the same tires (Pirelli P Zero Corsa), but the RS4 has a 87 hp disadvantage.

http://www.einszweidrei.de/

RS4
http://www.einszweidrei.de/audi/audirs4limst2006-1.htm

M6
http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/bmwm6cpst2005-1.htm

But we are hardly on the subject of the thread now are we?

Leadfoot
February 20th, 2007, 09:39
sticky,

I have put this argument to bed and I reckon you should do the same. If we can't even agree on the official data from SportAuto regarding to times set by the cars then it is so obvious that we will not agree on the subject, you prefer BMWs and I prefer Audis so lets agree to disagree.

But it does bag the question 'why are you here?'

I am done on the subject

sticky
February 20th, 2007, 10:23
sticky,

I have put this argument to bed and I reckon you should do the same. If we can't even agree on the official data from SportAuto regarding to times set by the cars then it is so obvious that we will not agree on the subject, you prefer BMWs and I prefer Audis so lets agree to disagree.

But it does bag the question 'why are you here?'

I am done on the subject
Honestly, I don't have sport auto numbers so I can't comment on them. I'll take a look at their website. I think you will see different lap times from different mags using different drivers on different days providing different numbers due to the cumulative different variables.

I wasn't attempting to get into an argument but more of a discussion. Either way, I think straights favor one car a bit more than tight turns favor the other.

I am here because I have an R8 on order. Obviously I don't hate Audi but that doesn't mean I need to be blind as to how their lineup realisticaly stacks up to BMW's from an overall performance perspective. The R8 might catch the eyes of a lot of people who previously did not take AUDI as seriously, that could be what it was in part designed to do.

I'm all for a V10 with some nice power, and all the more for the RS6 and R8 to share the rumored twin turbo V10.

Gladly putting it to bed.

Leadfoot
February 20th, 2007, 15:14
Sticky, I'm a bit shocked and surprised to hear you're ordered a R8 as your previous comments on the car where more like Audi should have done better in the face of the competition and with your strong views on rwd cars being better, but I am please you still made the move.

I hope that you will like your purchase and hopefully come round to our way of thinking regarding the brand. I believe that the R8 is a major turning point in which people like yourself will look at the brand in a differing light and see that there is more than pure figures that make a great car.

I look forward to your first post after driving the beast and believe it will live up to your very high expectations.:thumb:

Unfortunately like your self I too have strong views which spill in to heated arguments, but no harm done.:cheers:

Erik
February 21st, 2007, 11:05
I am here because I have an R8 on order.

Really? Congratulations!

Where do you live? US?

RXBG
February 21st, 2007, 14:55
no one in the USA has placed an order for the R8 as of today.

Leadfoot
February 21st, 2007, 15:35
Well there is a shit load of order here in the UK, in fact they already have more orders for this year than can be supplied. Now when did you last hear that about anything other than a Porsche or a Ferrari.

sticky
February 21st, 2007, 15:38
Really? Congratulations!

Where do you live? US?
Sorry, should have specified I have placed my deposit for an order. I live in Orange County. I hear the order guides come in this month.

Leadfoot
February 21st, 2007, 15:45
Sorry, should have specified I have placed my deposit for an order. I live in Orange County. I hear the order guides come in this month.

Is that Orange County NewYork, how are the guys from OCC doing?

sticky
February 21st, 2007, 15:59
Is that Orange County NewYork, how are the guys from OCC doing?
Orange County New York? Where the hell is that?

Orange County usually refers to Southern California.

Leadfoot
February 21st, 2007, 16:17
By the way OCC stands for ORANGE COUNTY CHOPPERS and it is in Orange County NewYork. There is also a Orange County in Florida if memory serves me. But as I don't live in America I can't be sure, but there again California is a bit like another country inside the USA what with it's own motoring laws.

sticky
February 21st, 2007, 16:33
By the way OCC stands for ORANGE COUNTY CHOPPERS and it is in Orange County NewYork. There is also a Orange County in Florida if memory serves me. But as I don't live in America I can't be sure, but there again California is a bit like another country inside the USA what with it's own motoring laws.
Oh, orange county choppers. I don't know anything about bikes and have never had any contact with that shop I just know they have a show which I believe is on the learning channel.

QuattroFun
March 4th, 2007, 19:25
480bhp is not enough to make a real difference vs. 420bhp - if Gallardo really gets a power hike to 550bhp, then 500-520bhp is a possibility.

SuperstarDriver
March 4th, 2007, 20:47
i can get more than an M driver can get from his car with an S4 for example...Quattro is capable of thinks that M from BMW never heard before...it's called:DESTROYING THE LAWS OF PHISICS...on the other hand in 2 days it will be a world premiere of the new A5/S5 and we all know what will happen than...no understeer at all because of the perfect weight distribution, extreme quattro with highly performaces from the new 0-100% of power delivered to the wheel and of course less weight...i just wait...nice and smooth!!!

Damienr8
March 5th, 2007, 16:52
i can get more than an M driver can get from his car with an S4 for example...Quattro is capable of thinks that M from BMW never heard before...it's called:DESTROYING THE LAWS OF PHISICS...on the other hand in 2 days it will be a world premiere of the new A5/S5 and we all know what will happen than...no understeer at all because of the perfect weight distribution, extreme quattro with highly performaces from the new 0-100% of power delivered to the wheel and of course less weight...i just wait...nice and smooth!!!

:applause: "DESTROYING THE LAWS OF PHISICS". You are the man superstar. :dig:

SuperstarDriver
March 5th, 2007, 17:09
Thanks man, i appreciate that:) Of course Audi is capable of destroying the laws of phisics because of the stability and quattro 4wd and magneride and DRC and big tires and much much more than an BMW or other RWD car can do...take for example Enzo...RWD 650HP 0-60 in 3.45s, Murcielago LP640 640HP much much more weight and 10HP less but 3,38s...of course 4WD is the best...everybody knows that...and for me a law is a thing you must cross it if you are a man and i love to feel how my car dropp power to the ground like a superglue attach an broken part, that's quattro guys and nothing compares to it...nothing...:dig: