Audi: strong today but what about tomorrow? [Archive] - RS6.com

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tailpipe

October 9th, 2006, 15:13

Right now, Audi is on a roll.

The new R8 is sensational. Who needs a 911? The new RS4 is a knockout. Who needs an M3? The new TT is a massive step forward from the old one. More important than niche models are the mainstream success stories: the Q7 may have been late to the SUV party, but it has made up for lost time: it looks good and goes well. It is aslo outselling the new Mercedes-Benz R-Class, which is comparable in many ways, by a factor of 17 to 1. Meanwhile, the A6 continues to do very well. But this is today. Come 2009, and I think that Audi may be in big trouble. Here's why.

The premium category is becoming highly competitive. BMW's success with its M-Division models has made performance a key factor in luxury car design. Mercedes-Benz has followed suit with AMG as has Audi with its S and RS model series. Lexus is playing catch-up with a soon to be released range of performance variants. In other words, the entire category is becoming increasingly competitive.

Driving dynamics are an important part of the luxury car equation. For this reason, all Audi competitors use RWD platforms. A few years ago, Audi's boss, Martin Winterkorn, wanted to develop a rear-wheel drive platform for Audi. He wanted to distance Audi from Volkswagen. Unfortunately, he was prevented from doing this by the Volkswagen board. The result is that successive tests of Audi products almost invariably make sniping comments about the chassis dynamics of individual models - especially the front wheel drive variants of the A4. Overall, however, Audi has done a great job of keeping-up with the competition. For the moment.

I am nervous that the next platform will not deliver the quantum leap in weight distribution Audi needs to deliver markedly improved ride and handling. The acid test will be the new A5. No one yet knows exactly how it will be configured, but early reports indicate an engine mounted behind the front axle - but still driving the front wheels.

This solution could be ultra, ultra cool. Or it could be a weak compromise which disadvantages Audi versus the rest of the premium pack. With Lexus and Honda rapidly catching up, no German brand can afford to have any fundamental engineering weaknesesses. When it comes to radical engineering innovation, my money is still on the Germans. But I have to say beads of sweat are starting to form on my forehead.

The biggest threat to Audi, however, comes not from its established competitors, but from within, from Volkswagen's Supervisory Board Chairman, Ferdinand Piech, who is also a family shareholder of Porsche. This perhaps explains why it was so easy to persuade Porsche to invest in Volkswagen. Porsche is now the largest VW shareholder. But you have to ask yourself why a company as profitable and successful as Porsche should want to own shares in VW? It cannot be about protecting supplier contracts, because Porsche could get the Cayenne produced by anyone of a dozen contract manufacturers - there is serious production over-capacity in the Industry. But the closer Volkswagen and Porsche become, the more Audi is hurt. The overlap between their products and Audi's must surely destroy value for both companies:

- The Cayenne, Touareg and Q7 are essentially the same vehicle
- The Cayman competes with the TT and soon the A5
- The R8 competes directly with the 911 (not to mention Lamborghini)
- The RS6 and S8 will compete with the Panamera

In other words, Piech's connection with Porsche creates a huge conflict of interest. Why did it take so long for Audi, the inventor of Quattro to get an SUV? No wonder sales in the USA suffered for so long. Why is Volkswagen moving so relentlessly upmarket to compete with Audi instead of complementing it through down-to-earth value, which is how Toyota and Lexus work together.

The big rumour that won't go away is that Volkswagen and Porsche will merge. I hope not, because this would be a disaster for Audi.

The next A4 is a make or break car for Audi, because it is a mainstay of Audi profits, but it's being attacked on all sides. The new Lexus IS is doing incredibly well while the next Mercedes-Benz C-Class due in March 2007 is widely being touted as a mini-S-Class.

Real profits don't come from niche models like the R8 and RS variants, even though such cars are highly profitable. They come from mainstream 1.8T models etc. Therefore, you have to get the basic design right as BMW has with the 3-Series for so long.

Finally, while Audi has been relentlessly focussed on giving its line-up more sporting credentials, economy has become very important. But where is a hybrid Audi? Still light years away.

So, while everything in Audi's garden looks rosy today, I am less sure about tomorrow. Given how much Audi's products have increased in price in recent years, it needs to be careful. With a market that is contracting in overall size, no one can afford to make a mistake. The best way to avoid failure is to maintain engineering integrity. If anyone can do this, it is Audi, so let's hope they do.

Toto89

October 9th, 2006, 16:24

Agreed. An other problem is that when they say that for example R8 shouldn't be as fast as the Gallardo because in this case people would buy Audi, the Q7 souldn't have a high performance version because it shouldn't beat Cayenne etc.
It is not so good that Audi can't work on their own...VW don't let it to make it's best.

gabbby

October 9th, 2006, 18:25

In an interview, Winterkorn said that if porsche is a shareholder of VAG, they need Audi make more money. They don't buy some parts of VAG to loose money. Audi, to make money, need to sell more cars. Actually, the war is BMW against Audi and Mercedes Benz in the premium mid size and luxury car market. Not at all against porsche in the ultra sportish cars market. And a porsche customer will still a porsche customer ! Having a porsche is a dream for many people. So, the problem is more between VW and Audi, and how Porsche heads want to make money with this two car makers and grow on the premium market.

Audi must stile on the premium market, because Audi is in the battle wapons against BMW and Mercedes Benz : not a Passat or a Jetta, not more a 911. Porsche cannot go far beyond the panamera, because they could break the dream of their cars : a porsche must stile a expenssive car, and this is the reason why Porsche have lot of money.

Well... I hope that Audi become a independant car maker. But actually, Audi is owned by the VAG group. And porsche take 20% of this group. I think that Audi will be limited in nuilding ultra fast sport cars like 911 competitor. Yes. But it is the flagship in premium market : I think the audi group will not be limted in the development of the new B8 platform.

I expected the B8 will start a new erra for Audi. I'm agree that the FWD is not as good as a RWD, but that cannot being under the actual B7 setup !

I'm confidend in the engineering choice : the quattro B8 might be extremly efficient, while the FWD will style at least not so bad.

Gaby

MR USER

October 9th, 2006, 19:55

Porsches lives on an engeneering fault... I think Audi can cope with that too...

Leadfoot

October 9th, 2006, 23:32

I reckon if Porsche do take control of VAG it will be the lesser brand that will lose out. We really don't need 3 people brands from one supplier (Seat, Skoda & VW). Think about a range of brands that read like this

Skoda - VW (Main stream brands)

Audi - Bentley (Luxury brands)

Porsche - Lamborghini (Sportscar brands)

All the above at present live in different price brackets so why not keep this with Porsche in control.

I believe Porsche want Audi's knowledge in Aluminium construction to help it modernise it's range of cars and keep them at the fore-front of the sportscar market. But there is other areas that Porsche could benefit, if like BMW they want to move down market and where better than to use possibly the best cheap brands manufacturer, VW. The Golf GTI feels every bit the quality product that my twice the price S4 does and I for one would consider a £33k Golf based Porsche hatchback before a similarly priced A4. Does this mean less Audis, not really because the Porsche would be overtly sporty and as such will only appeal to a buyer of such a motors.

The only change to the VAG range I think will be that all brands will work in its own areas of expertise, which would mean VW will not move up-market, Audi will not build supercars, Lamborghini will not move down-market and the rest including Porsche will do what they have been doing all along.

Hell I could live without a R8 if Porsche can improve the dynamics of the rest of the Audi range.:0:

MR USER

October 10th, 2006, 00:33

But do not forget is VAG that owns porsche and not vice versa... Porsche is too small to controll such a large group...

chewym

October 10th, 2006, 02:25

Leadfoot

October 10th, 2006, 08:08

In the American market it is all about advertising. Audi needs to realize that, and step up. The Q7 has somewhat struggled here because of relatively poor marketing. A good product is good, but many people buying the BMW 325i to drive to Starbucks could care less about its amazing handling. Brand image is key. Audi not only needs to develop quality product (I think the new modular platform A4/A5/A6/A8 will definately deliver on that) but at least in the American market Audi seems to struggle with brand image.

So, basically you are saying is, Americans in general are shallow.:lovl:

Don't think so, they have took to Lexus like flys to sh@t and it doesn't have the brand image of BMW, Merc or Audi. IMHO Americans like quantity over quality and at a price, this is something the Japanese can deliver more so than the Germans. The blue collar workers buy homegrown, the white collar workers buy foreign and the rich buy German. Which brand they rich buy is where the shallow part comes into play.:D

tazsura

October 10th, 2006, 12:53

Hmm..interesting points and view made by everyone.

In regards to the A5 platform, I think that this platform will be fine. The mid-front engine layout will benefit driving greatly. FWD will never offer the same enjoyment as tail-out RWD, but for the low power engines, FWD is more than sufficient and can also be fun. Take a drive in the latest Mondeo's or Focus's. They're a hoot and show what can be done with FWD. Having a 318 or a C180 RWD offers no real world advantage. And if RWD is your only selling point, well then your in trouble. Quattro has to remain for the more powerful engines, and offers Audi its USP against all the other Premium brands. Why follow everyone else into RWD?

The A4 is always a very important car for Audi, and the next generation will be no different. One additional plus for the next A4 will be the halo created by the current RS4 aswell as the upcoming coupe's etc. I still feel as thought the Lexus IS does not offer real competition to the A4. I don't know if it is my own prejudice or what, but I think that there is only a small group of people who would seriously consider the IS over the equivalent A4 or 3 series. And Lexus would have to become much more potent in the rest of Europe before attacking the sales of the German Marques. The next C-Class (which, with every new generation is always touted as a 'mini-Sclass!) will no doubt be a tour-de-force with many gadgets etc...but this is standard competition for the A4, the C-Class will not offer anything out of the ordinary i.e, exceptional value, or new levels of build integrity etc.

Audi have been deveolping Hybrid versions - Q7 Hybrid. This tech is just at its infancy stage however, and if Audi enter maybe a year a two later than most mainstreamers, I don't think that this will be to Audi's detrment. Public would have become accustomed to Hybrid by then an Audi will offer more advanced solutions to packaging etc than is currently available. A friend of mine is looking at the next LS460H and the boot space was laughable for a car of such size. Also, Audi has been focusing on the current in terms of economy. Just looks at FSi and the next-gen diesels. Stuff that we have maybe taken for granted.

Porsche's contribution to VAG is much more interesting. And to be honest, I don't really have a clue why Porsche are doing it. I agree with Leadfoot, I thik Seat and possibly Skoda could get the axe. Seat especially, has a very weak line-up with multiple MPV-esque cars along with the Leon.

Maybe Porsche will not allow VW to go too up-market allowing Audi this territory? Porsche going down-market seems slightly suspect to me. Having a low end model always affects Brand image, no matter what anyone says, and having a 25K hatchback might be cutting it too fine, even for Porsche. Many people have turned theirs noses at the Cayman!

Would, could Audi survive on its own? I suspect this would be extremely hard, but if they produce platforms that can be easily stretched, shortened and not affect quality too much, who knows?

:s3addict: :rs4addict :ttaddict: :s4addict: :addict:

gabbby

October 10th, 2006, 13:22

Fully agree...

The new platform is a real new way to make Audi more independant. All what you say seems to be really near the reality. And we must notice that the quattro system is default transmission on 200 hp+ cars...

Gaby

Leadfoot

October 10th, 2006, 19:59

Porsche's contribution to VAG is much more interesting. And to be honest, I don't really have a clue why Porsche are doing it. I agree with Leadfoot, I thik Seat and possibly Skoda could get the axe. Seat especially, has a very weak line-up with multiple MPV-esque cars along with the Leon.

Maybe Porsche will not allow VW to go too up-market allowing Audi this territory? Porsche going down-market seems slightly suspect to me. Having a low end model always affects Brand image, no matter what anyone says, and having a 25K hatchback might be cutting it too fine, even for Porsche. Many people have turned theirs noses at the Cayman!

Would, could Audi survive on its own? I suspect this would be extremely hard, but if they produce platforms that can be easily stretched, shortened and not affect quality too much, who knows?

:s3addict: :rs4addict :ttaddict: :s4addict: :addict:

I know some people out there don't see anything other than a 911 being a real Porsche. But the bottom line is this, if Porsche hadn't developed the Boxster and Cayennes then Porsche would have went the way of the dodo. Yes moving down-market can lower the image of the brand, but if the models are niche models then the effect is less. Porsche is not stupid, it knows that the sportscar market is filling up with competitors and there is only some many customers out there, so new models in different markets are required to help the brand survive.

Would a hatchback Porsche sell, don't know but it the next logical step after the 4door saloon when the company has already a SUV, Sportscar, Sportscar Coupe, Supercar and Hypercar. Or would you prefer a MPV :hihi:, I doubt think Porsche should drop below the £30K+ bracket as I think below this price your are moving the brand not only into main stream luxury brands like Audi, BMW and Lexus but the upper end of bread & butter brands like Ford, Opel and VW.

If Porsche did take control of VAG and decided to bring out a hatchback, anything less than 250hp would be a shame. It would be interesting to see if Porsche could work it's magic and make a humble Golf based model handle like a sportscar, I even thought of a name Hatchster.:D

gabbby

October 11th, 2006, 09:38

Leadfoot,

Porsche not survivor...! It's one of the most profitable car maker of the world !!!

When Porsche is making new car, the risk is higher than building 911. The panamera is only the 911 4 doors ! The face, the rear, all is inspired by the 911. The cayenne is something like 911 SUV... Porsche must still be Porsche.

If they can take control of the VW monster, it's because thay have plenty of cash ! Not because they need to survive.

Actually, Porsche would like to change the layout of the 911, move the engine place... but they can't, because the 911 is a mitic car, it's the most profitable product ! The car is tunned more an more time to befaster... but the galardo is better : that's a real challenge for porsche.

Imagine a R8 GT : this car should be really superior than a 911 GT3 !

What I hope audi build is a ultra fast V10, lightweight R8 version : this should be a killer car...

Gaby

Leadfoot

October 11th, 2006, 11:04

Gabby,

You need to check your history, Porsche was all be bust in the eighties and the only thing that saved them was the Boxster. Agreed, the 911 is Porsche's most profitable car but the most of it's profit comes from the other cars it makes. The Cayman is a better car than the 911, it handle sweeter, it has a better balanced chassis and the only reason the 911 is still made is to keep the old school happy.

It's getting more difficult for Porsche to keep the 911 competitive and in the very near future they will have to bite the bullet and replace the layout. This IMHO is why Porsche has branched out into differing markets, not only do they know the 991 isn't providing the profits required, they also know that the 911 will have to go mid-engined like the Boxster and the Cayman, but offering cars like the Cayenne and the Panamera, they are still providing cars for people with families like what the 911 did regardless how well it abilities were for this job.

I think if the R8 is as good as we all think it will signal the end of the 911 as we know it that little bit sooner and I can't wait because I like so many people would like to own a supercar and that bit of racing heritage that Porsche has and it's everyday drivability and this is what the 911 has, but at present I won't have it rear-engined layout.

But at the time that I will be able to buy a supercar, Audi's racing heritage will be right up there with Porsche's and why go for a Porsche when I love my Audis so much.:love:

tailpipe

October 11th, 2006, 15:25

Do you really think that one platform essentially based on a front-wheel drive configuration for three models: A4, A6 and A8 really makes sense for Audi in the future?

I do not, especially when Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus are all investing in unique model architectures. I can live with the A4 and A6 sharing the same platform. I can live with the A4 having a front wheel drive platform, but a one-size fits all approach for the entire range is brand suicide in my opinion. Will the new engine-behind-the-front-axle approach be a hit? I don't know, but it seems like a crazy bet-the-farm strategy to me. The A6 and A8 need proper RWD platfroms if they are to be credible versus the E/ S-Class, 5/ 7-Series and Lexus GS / LS models.

Sure quattro remains an important differentiator for Audi, but the inevitable penalty is extra weight and blunter handling. If you create a base RWD car that out-handles a 5-Series and then add quattro, you should have the best of all worlds. I also happen to think that BMW's X-drive is a VERY ELEGANT piece of engineering and entirely comparable to Quattro.

In Italy, for example, the 330d/ 330i estate with AWD is considered to be a real alternative to the A4 Avant. Fortunately for Audi, BMW is more focused on its conventional range because it makes more money from them. What I'm really saying here is that Audi needs to compete more strongly with its competitive set - especially because these brands are raising standards.

Neither Porsche nor Volkswagen are a threat to Audi as things stand today, but a combined VWP would easily be able to sell cars more profitably in every niche that Audi currently occupies.

One other story doing the rounds is that a combined VWP may consider selling-off Audi as a separate brand. In doing so, VWP would raise a MASSIVE amount of cash to fund new cars and new technologies - crucially fuel cell solutions. They would pluck the best assets out of Audi and probably throw in loss-making SEAT, Lamborghini and Bentley. This strategy makes an enormous amount of sense: while Audi today is extremely strong, tomorrow who knows...

You read this here first.

gabbby

October 11th, 2006, 15:54

This question is really strong one...

I think Audi is doing really good job with penalty. I think VW is not Audi, and Porsche is not VW. When VW have tryed to invest in the luxury market with the Phaeton, it was a big error. Touareg is a good business, but this SUV is not a luxury car.

Effectivly, a Porche need at least 280 hp to still being a real porsche. Using the brand image to down market new product is a really profitable approach, but for how long ? I think porsche can reach success with VW by using parts of the technologies, but will still build sportish and luxury cars. The day where Porsche and VW share too much components and platforms, this will be a bad think for the image of Porsche brand.

Can VW exist without Audi ? Perhaps.

Can Audi exist without VW ? No, not actually. But in futur, it's a really possible thing : if they are building the B8 platforme, they can be as successfull as BMW. BMW is higly profitable, and they are selling only 1.2 millions cars per years. Audi 900 000, VW 5 millions ! And VW is loosing money. So, it will be a point where Audi should become independant : before that, they must have their own assembly chains and distribution network, and it will cost too much money !...

I don't know...

Gaby

tazsura

October 12th, 2006, 10:05

Earlier, I said 'platforms' not 'platform'. I agree with you Tailpipe, the A4 should have a platform that can be shortened for the A3 etc. The second platform would be for the A6-A8. Now if necessary this could be a purely Quattro platform with no FWD.

However, I still don't think that Audi need RWD. Mid-Front engine has worked very well in the Quattroporte with 44:56 front:rear split in weight distribution. Combine the Mid-front layout with a variable Quattro drive layout (ideally initial set-up with 60-70% to the rear), and I would think that this would surely be a winner. The bluntness of Audi does not come from being FWD, it is because of the location of the engine. Move the engine from just behind the headlights to just behind the dashboard and things will start working better! Believe me. Also, Audi steering is another problem, and this is not because it is FWD. We have seen with the RS4 and to a certain extent the new TT that Audi are slowly resolving this issue, and with the new layout, further improvements should be made.

Another point, ultimate driving dynamics are not the only factor in making a good car. I would say that the majority of prospective car owners wouldn’t even be able to tell the difference between a Quattro, FWD and RWD car. It’s only people such as us who care about and know the difference between different drive trains etc.

As for Porsche, it would be silly to assume that they could only survive with jut the 911. The Boxtser and the Cayenne have both contributed highly to the prosperity of Porsche. The Boxster and Cayman, both fit in with Porsche ethos – Sports cars. The Cayenne was obviously new territory for Porsche, but was at the high end of the market, so was never in danger of hurting the brand by moving downscale. The Panemara will again bit at the high end of the market and should suit the brand and will no doubt be a fantastic drive. A Hatchback? This could be pushing it too far.

Allegiance with VW sounds smart. They are a big company and Porsche will no doubt tap into their resources for researching new Tech. They would be stupid not to. Porsche may simply have taken the stake in VW for this purpose. Are they trying to make VW a superbrand and move them up market? The Phaeton was/is illustration of the limits of the VW badge. Move the Passat to take on the 5 series. Hmm. Kill off Audi after having many years of good co-operation between the two of them? Have Audi pissed them off with the R8? Quite clearly they have. But, as we have already said, the 911 is not the major money spinner in the Porsche locker anymore. How many 911 sales will the R8 steal – 10%, 20%? Could Porsche form allegiance with Audi within the VAG group instead? The times ahead will surely be interesting.

dxben

October 13th, 2006, 06:25

Leadfoot

October 13th, 2006, 16:14

OMG, the R8 is not competition for the 911 for one simple reason, they are limiting the production run of this car much in the way they are limiting it for the RS4. Maybe 6-8k cars in 3 years time? 911s sell at much higher rates to that. The R8 is a halo car, the 911 is not, its the iconic foundation of the brand of Porsche and the car every Porsche fan aspires to. Sure it helps give value to Cayanne and Cayman, but I think there is a lot of BS about the R8 pissing off Porsche. Is there any real evidence of this?

Also, don't forget Porsche is in trouble itself with the 911. Look at the Cayman. Its a superior platform that is begging for power. Meanwhile there is only so much you can do with a rear engine platform that is weight sensitive. Throw a V8 back there to keep up with the eventual rise in power of Porsche's compeittors? Not on your life (and your life would be involved with such a fangled up monster)..

So.. that's my 2 cents :)

I'm comment on the R8 taking sales from the 911 was more a statement showing that if it's as good as we think, then it will sportlight all that is wrong with the 911. Up to now it could make an argument for it's shortfall based on price, but with the R8 around the same price and offering so much more it has to effect sales or at the very least make people think twice.

But anyway.

:dig: Someone else who is speaking sense.

Geist

October 23rd, 2006, 20:37

Hello everyone,
this is my first post, so please be gentle with me.

I've been reading this board for about an year now and I really appreciate all of you and the way you treat each other with respect (not so usual on the web...)

I drive an 2001 A3 8L 1.6. Not the fastest one but it gets me to work properly.

Why I'm posting in this thread?
On Saturday I had the chance to be a passenger in an BMW 650i.
It was astonishing. Very comfortable (even with -30mm AC Schnitzer-springs + M6 tyres). Very fast (for my circumstances). Great V8 sound and superb handling.

But it got me thinking about Audi, BMW, Mercedes and VW. And I came to the conclusion that the biggest problem for Audi is the VW group.

Examples?
R8: Can't be too good because of the Gallardo.
A8 as an S600/S65AMG competitor: No way, there's a Bentley Flying Spur.
Big, exclusive coupé as an CL competitor: Bentley GTC.
Develope a new engine? Yeah, but it must fit the A3, the A4, the A6, the Golf, the Passat, the Skoda-this, the Seat-that - too many compromises if you ask me.

Also I think Audi is a bit behind with their engines compared to BMW and MB.
In the A4 for example you can get a 200 hp I4 Turbo, a 255 hp V6, a 350 hp V8 and a 420 hp V8. I think there's a huge gap between the A4 V6 and the S4 V8.
A gap that BMW is closing perfectly in my opinion: The 306 hp I6 Biturbo.

Oh, turbocharging: Audi was a pioneer in this area. Now they're changing more and more to n/a engines.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Audi. Their design is still the best imo. But I also like the 3-series (esp. with M-package) and 3-series coupé designs.
And in two or three years when I'm going to buy a new car I will definitely not chose an Audi over any other car only because of the design.

Just my 2 cents.

Would like to hear your opinion on this.

Regards
Geist

Benman

October 24th, 2006, 18:44

Hello everyone,
this is my first post, so please be gentle with me.

I've been reading this board for about an year now...

Regards
Geist

Geist,

Welcome to the forum and great first post. Lurking for about a year? You could have been contributing. :D

Yes, your point is in line with Tailpipe's thoughts (at least to me it is). It also is something most of us Audi owners think about. We all know that platform sharing has it's Pros and Cons. BMW is free to make their cars as ugly as they see fit since they are truely an independent car company.

Time will tell if or when Audi will ever be able to break out of the mold.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

Toto89

October 24th, 2006, 18:48

But it got me thinking about Audi, BMW, Mercedes and VW. And I came to the conclusion that the biggest problem for Audi is the VW group.

Examples?
R8: Can't be too good because of the Gallardo.
A8 as an S600/S65AMG competitor: No way, there's a Bentley Flying Spur.
Big, exclusive coupé as an CL competitor: Bentley GTC.
Develope a new engine? Yeah, but it must fit the A3, the A4, the A6, the Golf, the Passat, the Skoda-this, the Seat-that - too many compromises if you ask me.

Oh, turbocharging: Audi was a pioneer in this area. Now they're changing more and more to n/a engines.

Regards
Geist
Completely agree with you!!
I hate to hear always that Audi couldn't do R8 or Q7 or RS6 as professionally as they could because in this case they would beat other cars in the group.
Audi will never beat it's opponents until they stop this philosophy.:noshake:

And about turbo charging:I think Audi started to build n/a engines because it's much more hard to tune and you may buy the more expensive one in this case.Just think through:B5 S4 and RS4 has nearly the same engine, but with different turbo pressure, so you could make a RS4 from your S4 quite easily.Now you couldn't do this because of n/a....

Leadfoot

October 24th, 2006, 21:07

In my opinion what is required is for a change of philosophy within VAG. There should be part sharing, but not the major parts like chassis or engines for that matter. Parts sharing should be air-con units, switch gear, displays etc., even suspension parts would be ok and gearboxes but only things that don't make the cars drive similarly.

VAG to be fair has done an amazing job in making basically the same car look totally different, but their main problem is they all drive very similar, Golf - A3 - Leon all basically drive the same. I think we all agree that BMWs basically drive the same right from the 1 series upto the 7 series but they steadily feel more luxurious with each more up the ladder. The same goes for Mercs, now I feel the same when I drive Audis but slide into a VW and there is the same Audi feel, this is where I see the problem. There should be a difference and a big one.

I have come to the same conclusion as Tailpipe, Audi need to change to rwd/awd, this would not only benefit the distinction between the two brands but also gives it the upmarket feel that Merc, BMW and Jaguar have enjoyed for years.

Toto89

October 24th, 2006, 21:26

Leadfoot

October 24th, 2006, 22:25

Well, in most cases i agree with you, but i really don't feel the same in a VW and in an Audi!
Audis have more exclusive atmosphere, much better feeling, much better materials, etc.I can't see big problems with Audis, my only problem is VW, who always wants to make decisions over other companies:(
But this is only my opinion;)

Agreed if you are talking about the A4 and up, but after driving A3s and Golf off and on for the past 10 years I would have to disagree with that statement. They drive the same in all but name. Materials etc. are better in Audis but they basically feel the same with your hands on the wheel, the clutch feeling the same, the gear lever moves the same, the switches, all of these feel the same. Yes in appearance they look different internally, but if you could close your eyes and drive the car, I bet you couldn't tell which you were in and that is a shame and a problem for Audi. How can you convince customers that your cars and worth 20% more when they are basically the same.

I understand your thoughts on VW and totally agree with you, but Audi can't go it alone and under Porsche I feel their future would be even shaker. So unless Audi moves to a different drive configuration I can't see things getting much better for Audi.

OfftheHeZie

October 31st, 2006, 20:40

Ever wondered if it has nothing to do with marketing, it's just, maybe, Audi just don't give a fuck. :D

Lateknight

November 1st, 2006, 00:20

Maybe it wont be long before Audi will be sold off.

They are reasonably profitable. (therefore they are one of only a few car companies worth something). In a similar way that Ford are open to offers on Aston Martin currently (profitable/desirable), and not Jaguar (not either).

Volkswagen are moving upmarket and Porsche are less focused on Sports cars now : Cayenne / Panamera and a possible premium hatch often talked about.

This stomps all over everything Audi do at the moment.
Too many similar products compromising each other in the same boardroom.
Somethings got to give soon.

jrj2820

November 20th, 2006, 20:56

great post tailpipe (http://www.rs6.com/forum/member.php?u=1201), after readign your post I just happen to be listening to the news here in the USA
and its all about the airlines buying out eachother.. Maybe that is what is going to happen one day _only two car companies remain-<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_77232", true); </SCRIPT>

tailpipe

November 21st, 2006, 12:39

Since originally writing this post, Bernd Pischetsterider, the Head of Volkswagen Group, has been ousted in a Boardroom coup by the Chairman, Ferdinand Piech. Head of Audi, Martin Winterkorn will replace Pischetstreider as Head of Volkswagen, leaving an important question unanswered: who will now lead Audi?

While Winterkorn is leaving Audi at a crucial time, the apalling corporate governance at Volkswagen, courtesy of Piech, has damaged the Group's reputation among world stock markets. The FT in London was particularly scathing about the way in which Pischetstreider was treated. Pischetsterider has been the architect of Volkswagen's recent resurgence. Its share price is now at the highest level for 8 years. Pischetstreider correctly realised that Volkswagen could not be a luxury brand (axing the Phateon and other misconceived plans) and allowed Winterkorn to grow Audi. But without Winterkorn and Pischetsreider at Audi and Volkswagen respectively to finish the jobs they started, has the VW Group once more been thrown into turmoil?

Maybe not.

Speculation is rife that Porsche is about to launch a full takeover bid for Volkswagen. Piech realises that you need two primary brands to survive in today's very tough marketplace. Like Toyota which has two core brands, Toyota as the mainstream brand and Lexus as the luxury brand, a united Porsche and Volkswagen group would achieve an identical structure. So Piech may yet to prove to be an inspired visionary rather than villain of the peace.

But the question this once again leads to is where does this leave Audi?

Further speculation is that Audi is going to be SOLD OFF as an independent car company along with Lamborghini and SEAT. If it isn't, the Porsche, Audi, Volkswagen product portfolios will overlap so much they will cause dramatic cannibalisation between models, e.g. Touraeg, Q7 and Cayenne; Boxter, TT and Scirocco; Golf, A3, SEAT and Skoda superminis; 911, R8 and Lamborghini Gallardo; Panamera, A8, Bentley; and the list goes on.

VW will keep Bentley as this fits quite nicely above Porsche while Skoda fits quite nicely below VW. Audi, Lamborghini and SEAT all go to the highest bidder. As a result, VW gets cash to develop brand new 911, brand new 4-door platform for Porsche, new shared SUV platform, new mid-level shared saloon platform, new Golf platform, new Polo platform and the really big R&D Fuel Cell technology.

This strategy could not only leap-frog Volkswagen-Porsche ahead of Mercedes-Benz and BMW, but also turn the new Group into the most profitable car company behind Toyota. It makes a lot of sense.

But let's talk about Audi for a second. Audi should have had a rear-wheel drive platform by now. To compensate for this, it has had to rely on Quattro models. But AWD cars inevitably less good handling cars and are heavier. In short, Audi has been driving up a technological cul-de-sac for some time. I am not talking about RS models but plain vanilla A4s and A6s. What brings this debate sharply into focus is the rise and rise of Lexus in Europe. Lexus is raising the stakes by over-engineering its cars in the junior categories. For this reason, some pundits are saying that the next A4 is already doomed to mediocrity. Its platform isn't the step forward everyone thought it would be. Piech stopped the B8 A4 having rear-wheel drive three years ago. in preventing Audi from competing with Volkswagen, it has been prevented from competing with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus.

The truth is that the company suffering most from Audi's continued success is Volkswagen. The A3 is killing the Golf, which has been the main source of profits for some time. The TT makes a new Scrocco redundant almost before it is launched. And the A4 has lways been more attractive than the Passat. In other words, while Audi is strong today, in a combined Volkswagen-Porsche Group would it be allowed to be strong tomorrow?

I don't think so.

Audiphile

December 25th, 2006, 04:33

I must disagree. I can see where one would asssume that in benefits VW and Porsche to not have Audi. Yet, this makes no sense from a business or image point of view. Audi yields not only the majority of profits for the VAG group, but has now one of the highest capital net yields in the industry. The capital net yield is the benchmark of profitability. At this time BMW and Porsche have some of the highest with BMW at around 11%. Audi will have at least 10.5% capital net yield in 2006 surpassing the 9% set by the VAG. By next year, Audi will surpass 11% (maybe even this year depending how many vehicles they sell in December) and this will put it ahead of BMW. BMW cannot sustain the 11% or higher in the future as Audi has more resources and capital according to both Stanely Morgan and Arndt Ellinghorst of Dresdner Bank to overtake BMW in the very near future, especially with the 11.3 Billion Euro earmarked for product development. BMW, believe it or not, according the this analysis does not have the developmental ability to counter this Audi thrust.

Also, Audi runs and builds its own factories (no VWs are build along side Audis, even in Bratislava where Audi has a special section of the factory with its own assembly lines for the Q7 - that is why its quality surpasses that of the Toureg or Cayenne), recently taking over the Belgium factory to start production of the future A1/A2. Furthermore, in India and other developing countries, VW and Audi share some factories for economies of scale. Separating this would be suicide for Porsche.

Porsche and Audi do not really compete. I think they are very distinctive in there model ranges and images. Audi has always build smaller cars that in a sense compete against VW offerings (say the A2 or A3). Audi did this before VW. Winterkorn has already began regorganzing VW into a premium group and a volume group and continues to side with Audi. If anything, there will be a focus on allowing Audi to do what it needs to do without interference of VW. I think if anything, Porsche will unite Audi with Porsche and keep VW separately. But again, I doubt this considering how the leadership looks at this time.