Car&Driver review - RS6 and S4 wins (?)

[Erik]

I haven't read this. Anyone who can scan it or tell us more?


A little fun to read :D

http://www.bmwm5.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29686

[Gustav]

:bunny2: Yes I haven't had time to comment it but I'll do that some time.

They're simply bribed ;)

:vsad:

[Finnus]

Thanks, Erik.

That was an interesting read (the M5 thread on the C&D article). You get the range of comments crying "fowl" in the comparison to those who accept the RS6. :cheers:

Especially interesting was the post old s4 chipped to 310 hp beating the M3. :bang: Makes you wonder about the RS6/M3 comparison ...

Personally, I think they are all great cars. It's a matter of personal preference. When the new M5 comes out, the shoe will be on the other foot.

Finnus :addict:

[Mal]

Is the C & D article available on line, as I looked and cant find it?

[jconley]

No, not yet. The on-line editon lags behind the print one sometimes by a few weeks.

[BBGT2]

Man those guys at bmwm5 are really getting worked out by this test. It is just a test and an objective decision.
But to think that a chipped out RS 6 will STILL blow away a heavily modified Dinan M5 makes me chuckle and smile:cheers:

I also cant believe the one membe rover there that stated
"automatic transmission, deduct 10 points" that was goofy:MTM:
Like all sport sedans have to be manual shift, hell even the almighty PORSCHE has a auto for theie twin turbo 996. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TASTE you m5'ers need to relax and understand that you have been dethroned by lil ol Audi:flamed:


Just my .02 cents (no inflation)

Bajo:addict:

[Finnus]

you m5'ers need to relax and understand that you have been dethroned by lil ol Audi

I second that, Bajors.

[Gustav]

:hmm:

No. Some videos :0:

http://www.bmwm5.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28803&highlight=rs6+video

But I really liked the RS6. Automatic isn't my preference. But it's a nice car :alig:

[BBGT2]

Gustav,

Seen the video at least 2 times, first clip in the video the RS 6 takes off a good car length and then it seems to hit a brick wall and then you start off again and the m3 moves away, your editing needs work my good man. Just making a point, I also like the m3/m5 but like the RS 6 better any Audi for that matter.
And yes the M5 has been dethroned, live it, love it or leave it.

I love this group,:cheers:

Needless to say as soon as i get my RS 6 I will be on a lookout for a M5 to dethrone the king myself, ahhhhhh dont you just love rebbelion and take overs.
All in good faith and undertstanding, both cars are awesome in their own brand of niche.

Bajo
:addict:

[johann]

Originally posted by Finnus
Especially interesting was the post old s4 chipped to 310 hp beating the M3. :bang:

That's because most US driver are used to a slushbox. ;)

[Benman]

the car and driver article was definately a great read.:D i tried
looking for the link to show it to our "overseas" members but as
jconley states, the web site lags a few weeks behind. what i find
the MOST interesting is that BMW enthusiasts get SO bothered
when one of their (in this case both of their) super cars looses
a comparision. i mean come on. BMW wins almost every test that
the cars are entered into. and it is NOT because BMW pays the
most money in bribes. it is because they make a great car. plain
and simple. so what do you know, along comes audi with 2 cars
that actually for a change topple the order and what happens?
WWWHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i can't believe one of the BMWM5 members actually think that
audi bribed or paid money to car and driver. how dumb is that?
after all, with all the BMW wins, lets count up how much money in
bribes it would take. all these cars are great and on that day, at
that time, car and driver deemed fit to present the winner award
to audi.

so come on BMW guys, mabey when the NEW M5 comes out,
BMW will make sure THEY have enough bribe money to make
sure that that THEY win:hihi: :hihi:

ben:addict: siempre

[GoFastKindaGuy]

Why are there so few performance contests held in the snow?

Could be that when the flag drops on the ice, only Audi quattro and Porsche C4s actually go someplace?

There are many great cars when roads are dry. If one drives in the cold, there are really very few options in performance cars.:incar:

In my opinion, the debate stops when the snow drops.

[Finnus]

Johann,

I don't understand your comment:

"That's because most US driver are used to a slushbox. "

Please explain it to me.

Finnus
:addict:

[MichaelJP]

"That's because most US driver are used to a slushbox. "


It's a shame sometimes that people often unfairly criticise the automatic transmission, with its associated torque converter. They call it a "slushbox" because the engine drive is not initially directly connected to the wheels, though it is when the torque converter locks up at higher speeds.

What they forget is that this is also the case with a manual when the clutch is slipping on engagement.

The auto also has a big advantage when coupled to a torquey turbo powertrain like the RS6's. This comes about particularly on the launch where the engine is able to spin into its torque band, at the same time spinning up the turbos.

I like manuals in some cases, but auto transmissions can be very good, especially a "tiptronic" as good as the RS6's :) When you couple that with the versatility round town, to me it's a win-win scenario.

- MichaelJP

[johann]

Originally posted by MichaelJP
The auto also has a big advantage when coupled to a torquey turbo powertrain like the RS6's. This comes about particularly on the launch where the engine is able to spin into its torque band, at the same time spinning up the turbos.

I like manuals in some cases, but auto transmissions can be very good, especially a "tiptronic" as good as the RS6's :) When you couple that with the versatility round town, to me it's a win-win scenario.

Really, and that advantage would be?

I'm convinced that the RS6 would be faster both in launch and trough the gears.

For lazy cruising and rush hour bumper-to-bumper traffic a slushbox is convinient but when it comes to performance it's just worse in every single point compared to a decently skilled driver with a manual gearbox.

Also I really never noticed that the RS6' tiptronic was any better than the competition but maybe it's better than the other Audi slushboxes. ;)

But each to his own, if you're happy with it, good for you.
Only problem is that Audi never gave us who favours manuals an option. :(

That said my comment had nothing to do with the RS6, it was aimed at the crappy M3 driver who lost against a heavier car with less power. Having read how he also lost with his M5, it's clear that he has no understanding of how a gearbox is supposed to be used.

It's funny though that you took it as critisism on your highly praised RS6 Tiptronic. Are you feeling that you really wanted a manual RS6? ;)

Cheers,
/Johan

[johann]

Originally posted by Finnus
Johann,

I don't understand your comment:

"That's because most US driver are used to a slushbox. "

Please explain it to me.

Finnus
:addict:

If you read the thread on bmwm5.com again, you'll realize that the guy who supposedly had an M3 and lost against a heavier and weaker chipped S4, you'll understand that he have no clue on how do drive stick.

Cheers,
/Johan

[darkseid]

Well, according to the same guy (Bigtime007), the heavy and weak S4 also won his M5.

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by johann
But each to his own, if you're happy with it, good for you.
Only problem is that Audi never gave us who favours manuals an option. :(

...It's funny though that you took it as critisism on your highly praised RS6 Tiptronic. Are you feeling that you really wanted a manual RS6? ;)


True, each to their own - personally I think the RS6 and Tiptronic are the perfect match.

And that's not to say I don't like manuals - I have a Caterham R300 for when I want to change gear myself:)

- MichaelJP

[Benman]

it's funny some of the BMW guy's like to bash automatic
transmissions. the reason it's SO funny is that the next M5
will more than likely come with a auto trans as well (oh wait,
i'm sorry. BMW calls it a SMG trans:hihi: ) soon even the highly
praised M line will have nothing but auto trans available on their
cars. and what then? will you complain about how BMW doesn't
give you the choice to shift for yourself? i doubt it. you'll simply
say things like "oh, the new SMG trans is simply the BEST.it's so
quick and" BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. then, all of a sudden, BMW drivers
will suddenly LOVE automatics. GEE, I WONDER WHY?:hihi:

ben:addict: nothing else will do.

BTW, before someone says that the SMG trans is different than
an automatic, it still is not a manual. it does the shifting for you.
just like an auto.:cheers:

[johann]

Originally posted by darkseid
Well, according to the same guy (Bigtime007), the heavy and weak S4 also won his M5.

Exactly my point.

[johann]

Originally posted by Benman
BTW, before someone says that the SMG trans is different than an automatic, it still is not a manual. it does the shifting for you. just like an auto.:cheers:

It's still a manual gear box with a normal clutch, but you're right it does shift for you. Still if you really think it's similar to a tradtional slushbox such as tiptronic, steptronic, etc. you are truly ignorant. But you do know the difference don't you? ;)

Anyway, I think that both Audi and BMW should give us the choice of automatic or manual since different drivers have different preferences.

In an autobahn express like the RS6 I could live with the Tiptronic but I don't like the extra transmission losses that comes with a slushbox.

Cheers,
/Johan

[Benman]

yes i know the difference between a SMG and a regular auto.
i also know the difference between AUDI's new DSG and a regular
transmission.

but i think my point was proven by how fast you responded. any
time BMW makes a spin on an "automatic" maual it is praised by
their enthusiasts. but other "slushboxes" just don't get it.

whatever helps you sleep at night:hihi:

ben:addict:

[darkseid]

This is getting preety close to become a mud slinging topic.

Soon it will just be posts like "Your mom's...".

[johann]

Originally posted by Benman
yes i know the difference between a SMG and a regular auto.
i also know the difference between AUDI's new DSG and a regular
transmission.

but i think my point was proven by how fast you responded. any
time BMW makes a spin on an "automatic" maual it is praised by
their enthusiasts. but other "slushboxes" just don't get it.


BMW have had Steptronic (same as Tiptronic) since mid 90s and find them at least as bad as Tiptronic. Also most BMW enthutiasts found the SMG I in M3 3.2 back in 98 (or perhaps 97) was really bad too, basically it sucked.

DSG is something completely different than Tiptronic and is supposed to be up to 4 times faster than SMG II which sounds really promising. Only downside is a overly complex design and weight, the former will not even be a downside once reliability has been sorted out.

FWIW, I choose my M3 with manual and I hope I can have that as an option next time it's time to buy a car, let it be a BMW, Porsche, Audi or whatever I found interesting at that time.

Also I consder me to be a car enthutiast that likes all good cars. not only BMWs and for sure not all BMWs.

[Benman]

i agree that as enthusiasts manuals are superior to autos when
it comes to driver involvment. but in a real world the performance
advantage of a stick over an auto is minimal. when you look at
lap times you find them to be marginally slower with the auto vs.
a stick. but let's face it. we are not on a race track. and ANY car
that weights 3,000-4,000lbs. with all the electronic gizmos is NOT
a hard core race car. even most porsches and ferraris (which i
love) have driver comforts such as radios, A.C., power window
and seats. but most importantly they have driver ASSISTS such
as stability programs and POWER steering. all of these things
take some of the involvement out of driving.

so yes johann, you are correct in saying the manual is better
for the true enthusiast. but car manufactures do not give us
enthusiasts a choice (including porsche and ferrari) when it
comes to driver aids. so what's one more.:cheers:

ben:addict:

[TheBrit]

OK, so a "manual gearbox" is one that you operate manually, that is you change gears yourself by moving the cogs by some kind of direct linkage from a control of some kind to the gearbox.

An "automatic gearbox" is one that changes gears automatically, that is to say it can change gears by itself. Tiptronic, Steptronic, and DSG all are automatic gearboxes. Can SMG change gears by itself (not big in BMW knowledge, I'll admit)? If it can, it's an automatic gearbox.

As for "slushbox", if you apply that term to all torque converter based automatic gearboxes, then yes the RS 6 has a slushbox.

Slushy it isn't though...

The newer torque converter-based auto boxes are a lot snappier than older ones. The RS 6 changes gears pretty smartly, and the TCM is smart enough to de-clutch the torque converter and run the rpms up to spool the turbos and get into the engine's peak torque band before slipping the lockup clutch back in, when the situation demands it. It's the best auto I've driven, period.

Anyway, some people love stick, some love auto and some love both for different reasons. I'm in the latter category, I used to think I'd never drive an auto, but now I love it for what it is and I don't try to treat it like a stick.

Peace to all, even BMW drivers! :D

[johann]

Originally posted by Benman
i agree that as enthusiasts manuals are superior to autos when it comes to driver involvment. but in a real world the performance advantage of a stick over an auto is minimal.

I guess that depends on what one puts into minimal. Take the driver into account and a poor driver with stick will be beaten by poor driver with auto, even an average stick driver might be beaten by a poor auto driver.


Originally posted by Benman
when you look at lap times you find them to be marginally slower with the auto vs. a stick. but let's face it. we are not on a race track.

I haven't really seen any lap times that compare auto (as traditonal not SMG type) vs stick, so I can't really comment on that but when it comes to pure acceleration there is a significant difference.


Originally posted by Benman
and ANY car that weights 3,000-4,000lbs. with all the electronic gizmos is NOT a hard core race car.

I definetly agree.


Originally posted by Benman
even most porsches and ferraris (which i love) have driver comforts such as radios, A.C., power window and seats. but most importantly they have driver ASSISTS such as stability programs and POWER steering. all of these things take some of the involvement out of driving.

The stability systems can be turned of easily and as for the steering I would say that an auto gearbox is more equvivalent to the car steering by itself than Power steering IMO. On the contrary I think power steering can actually add to the involvment since you don't have to struggle with muscle force but can use lesser forvce and therefore feel more. The day when power steering meant no feeling is long gone and to be honest I found the steering in the RS6 to be the best Audi so far ever.



Originally posted by Benman
so yes johann, you are correct in saying the manual is better
for the true enthusiast. but car manufactures do not give us
enthusiasts a choice (including porsche and ferrari) when it
comes to driver aids. so what's one more.

What is better lies in the eyes of the beholder. I only know that for me stick gives more driver involvement and give me better control, that doesn't mean that I hate autos or think they are bad
(well some are).

As for the stability control systems such as PSM, DSC, ESP, etc. I find them to excellent for bad condtions and when you're transporting yourself. Fortunately you can turn them off easy in most cars including the RS6.

What I can't figure out why the GT2 and GT3 don't come with PSM, they weight penalty can barely be measured and since they can be turned off easy they really wouldn't intrude if one wanted to drive on a track etc.


To get back to why I said slushbox in the 1st place was because most US people only learn to drive automatics and it was perfectly clear that the guy who lost with his M3 couldn't drive. Not that an chipped S4 is that slow but because the M3 being lighter, more powerful and with less transmissional losses is faster. He also later describe a "race" with his M5 against the same S4, a race performed from 50 mph in the two highest gear. No suprise the S4 one since it's 6th gear is lowered gear than the M5's 5th gear. That only shows that one always has to take driver skills into the equation, more so in a manual car.

:cheers:
/Johan

[Benman]

whatever makes you sleep at night.

just kidding:hihi:

well said:cheers:

ben:addict:

p.s. just don't think all of us american are too fat and lazy to
shift for ourselves:cheers:

[krm]

It's good that the M5 finally is beaten (even if it's subjective review or not I am not sure). In the end, we as consumers/drivers/enthusiasts are the ones benefited from all this competition because we have all these great cars to choose from.

:cheers: