The next Audi RS6 and RS7 (2013/14)

[iconcls]

Sorry AoA you lost a sale. S6 is too soft, S4 is ok but lacks raw power, S8 is just too much money for a daily driver and its soft. S7 and RS7 just plain lack the look. TTRS is too small and the RS5 is a n/a which I will not own. So then it was RS6 #2 for me and I will enjoy putting the miles on my 35k car for the next 5 years or so.

A great bit of market planning there.

AoA lost my sale too, spec'd my E63S yesterday.

[ZCD2.7T]

... spec'd my E63S yesterday.

TRAITOR!!!

....................er, I mean....congratulations!

[DHall1]

Very few vehicles satisfy RS6 owners after having owned a RS for so long. Even the RS4 cant match the road feel and brute power of that 4.2TT. I can say my E55 AMG has been missed since the day I sold it to Pat in Jan. It was my daily driver and that brute muscle car could stomp 98% of the vehicles on the road at any instant. I can see the reason to order a E63S. The GT-R is actually on the short list for my next purchase. So Audi may lose another one. Nice lineup iconcls

AoA lost my sale too, spec'd my E63S yesterday.

[G@Fourtitude]

George,

thanks for the descriptive feedback and the rationalization - all your points are valid. I think most of us who have participated on this and like forums are well aware of the challenges a business faces in bringing new cars to market.

However, that should really not be something the consumer should worry about and plead with them about.

Should it be something the consumer would worry about? No. Still, this seems to be a pretty inside baseball forum. People on most enthusiast forums like to be in the know, and even if they don't agree they have better perspective than more casual fans. I figured I'd share what I know of the AoA perspective.

If they can sell cars in UK in all versions I honestly don't see why they cannot in the US - their 3rd largest market after china and Germany in 2012.
http://www.audiworld.com/news/13/audi-deliveries-12/

Outwardly you'd think this would be so. UK and USA are both similar in size to Audi in volume though the UK market is significantly larger in overall size (meaning Audi has a larger market share and thus likely more pressure to maintain). More importantly, right hand drive is a cost expenditure that can assumedly be written off over markets requiring similar configurations like Australia and Japan. Other costs associated such as safety equipment, emissions and crash testing standards are more similar (if not identical) to the EU whereas the US goes their own way on all of these. This all adds cost and complexity to the American business unit.

[quote]Audi is NOT struggling financially... in fact they are ROLLING in dough - if they can make a 5 billion euro profit a year satisfying some american customers will not ruin them.[/quote

Yeah, okay but we don't know all their priorities and we're not considering all the market conditions. Going on some things I've heard or read in the press, I could name two that would have an effect on conservatism in strategy at this time. For one, the European market is WAY off. Germany is holding strong, but not so southern Europe. Whether this engulfs the entire EU or those key markets get worse remains unknown. Also, there's a rumor in the press that the Volkswagen Group's Audi unit may purchase Alfa Romeo. IF that's true, then they'll need cash on hand in order to do it.

[G@Fourtitude]

I joined, have contributed, and followed RS6.com since the purchase of my RS6. Like many people on here, its the first websites I visit each day. I read 99% of all posts made. I am not alone. This is more like friends hanging out over drinks, than competition. Many of us have even contributed financially to help Erik keep things running… as this is nothing he makes a living on. Its a "for us, by us" type atmosphere.

Your comments (good, bad, or indifferent) will always be welcome. This is a place you can come to get away from competition.

Stick around... Comment, troll, enjoy!

I'll stick my head in when I can. Today's a little slower so I figured I'd stop back and check this thread out.

You're right, there are very different strategies between our sites. Mine is my day job and I live and die on whether I get traffic and can thus place ads on the site. VWvortex is a huge factor in this because it's part of my company and it has been lucky enough to maintain a big chunk of VW enthusiast traffic. It remains what Audiworld once was years ago in this space. Today Audi enthusiasts are VERY spread out over many good forums. Other than my own of course, I tend to like this one.

"For us by us" is an interesting take. I think any forum isn't successful unless they take that mantra very seriously. If people don't feel at home, there's not much reason to hang out for the long haul. It's simply not sustainable.

With our three main sites (VWvortex, Swedespeed and Fourtitude) we have huge costs in hosting and maintain our own boxes. Should you guys ever want to work up a strategic alliance of some sort, I'd be open to that. Fourtitude's blog has few peers in quantity and quality of editorial content (IMO), but our forums constantly struggle to make their own - some like TT and A3 are very well populated, and larger cars not so much. I'm not really interested in the nuttiness of other sites' Off Topic communities, but the quality Audi discussion is something I think we (those of you on this site, me and my readers) really enjoy and care to support.

[G@Fourtitude]

For me it's a very simple question, either AoA wants to build their image as a tier 1 performance marque stateside or they do not. If the former, then they have to bring all the RS goods over, like AMG and ///M, even if at a loss; if the latter, they just have to keep doing what they are currently doing by building VW 2.0 here.

I think AoA's measurement of tier 1 and yours are different. Not everyone is an RS customer nor really cares about RS. Of course everyone here does, including myself, but other factors such as rich experience of dealerships, quality of C/D product (like A6, A7, A8), crossovers, etc. all add to the tier 1 strategy. Look at companies like Lexus (largely in the US with little presence elsewhere) that exist with little to no performance cred. I'm not saying Audi is chasing Lexus or adopting their strategy, but I am saying that the US market isn't all about performance unlike markets like Germany where this is a HUGE factor in a brand's cred and likely why brands like Lexus and Infiniti have had little presence there.

[G@Fourtitude]

George, firstly thank you for your response. Secondly I would ask that you not take offense to the following remarks, as they are not intended to be contentious, but merely state my perspective.

Thanks and ditto for me. This is all just discussion and debate. No harm no foul.

I have been an Audi owner for over 22 years. In that time I have purchased from new a 1993 S4, 1997 S6, 2001 S4, 2004 RS (still own it), 2007 S6 (sold quickly), and a 2008 S8. My wife who has a liking for BMW has owned every M5 model that came to NA in the same timeframe.

At this point you are probably asking why I bother to mention all of this, and the answer quite simply is despite my purchase history, and the loyalty I have displayed to the brand I have never once received a single request for feedback from anyone at Audi other than the occasional calls asking what my service experience was like. Unlike my Audi experience, I can however tell you that I have been invited and participated in BMW ownership forums which requested feedback specifically on M product. Some of the questions asked sought to gauge interest in other M product like the X5 and X6 platforms prior to their arrival.

I can't speak for BMW because I don't really work with them nor have a good take on their management or practices. As for Audi, what sticks out to me is that your last new Audi was 2008. In addition to that car now being 5 years old, Johan de Nysschen took over in 2006 and Scott Keogh in 2012. Your most recent car predates customer/enthusiast movements like Kundenbegeisterung by a fair margin. My guess is that if you were buying the newer cars then you'd be more actively in their watch group. That you have bought every generation M5 suggests you have something newer from Munich and are thus still active in theirs. Audi of America's activity in this sort of thing has grown both in size and effectiveness exponentially over the last few years. It doesn't happen over night though and is still happening. Just my .02.

[G@Fourtitude]

Yes, I do think we should be further along than this, Nysschen was talking reaching parity with the other German brands nearly 10 years ago at the start of his AoA CEO tenure. All rhetoric, little results.

To be specific, Johan joined in 2006. That's 7 years ago and closer to the number 5 than it is 10. Even still, as much as those in management are proactive these folks all deal reactively with market factors that happen - market slowdowns, recalls, changes in strategy by competitors, etc., etc. I think if you look at Audi's American growth rate and the same growth rate of their main competitors, they show they know what they're doing. If that's rhetoric, well...

[G@Fourtitude]

Bottom line? I'm not done with my RS6 by a long shot. Audi you spoiled us and nothing in the current lineup appleals because it is no better than the slightly modified C5 RS6. So many of us are looking to buy another Audi and too many offerings are weak when you have a RS6 in the garage. Heck, I cant even test drive a Q5 3.0T in the entire state of AZ.

So we can have these other forum or media people come on and say how they have lunch with Audi staff and buy them Christmas presents. Big deal. The proof is in the puddin here folks. Oh they are listening. BS. AoA is busy around the board table counting money from the Mexico factories pumping out cheap A4 knockoffs.

Look man, I'm just trying to give you some perspective. If you don't want to hear it, fine. But do me a favor and stop making assumptions about my relationship with Audi. Your statements suggest you don't know what you're talking about in regards to them or their process so I'm trying to give you some input so you can speak from a position of authority. If you don't agree with me then that's fine, but your arguments will only be stronger if they stand up against an educated viewpoint. Throwing out incorrect Mexican plant assumptions, mentioning lunches and Christmas gifts suggests to me you're doing that in lieu of a strong argument.

You want to talk about the Mexican plant? I know plenty. It's not yet open BTW and it's not even slated to build A4s. It is Q5 only (at least for now) and world production of that model so Germany, etc. get the same ones. There are market conditions for this choice and we highlighted them in-depth on my blog. I can summarize or provide a link if you wish.

This may sound like blasphemy, but hear me out before you say your worst. Your RS 6 versus the current S6? C5 was really not very good from a reliability standpoint and thus very costly for Audi on warranties. Ask another C5 owner whose blown his trans and they'll tell you. The C5 is too small today for C segment (B8 is same size) and stock for stock is faster in straight line, more dynamic in corners, a lion's share difference in material quality on the inside, worlds apart infotainment, etc. DSG is soooo much better than the C5's tiptronic, as is the new 8-speed Tip in the RS-spec cars and S8.

Sure, you can tune your C5. A C7 owner can tune theirs too and lots of luck when they do that. They'll still walk you on a drag strip or a track. As much as I like the C5 RS 6, time marches on. You can't expect it to keep up on all those factors. quattro GmbH has learned a LOT since the C5 era and it shows most in the handling dynamic of these new cars.

My best guess as to what the S6 lacks to the C5 for me and other enthusiasts has little if anything to do with performance. It lacks the RS badge, the flares and the exclusivity. It's too much of a sleeper for someone drawn to an RS. I'll give you that it's also softer than an RS, but still will out handle a C5 RS 6.

Again, just my opinion. I've never owned a C5 RS 6, but I have spent time in one. Same goes for the new C7 cars, though I have not yet driven the C7 RS cars yet.

[G@Fourtitude]

I know it looks promising but I can't find a Q5 supercharged to even test drive. It's more for the wife because I have my daily beast finally.

That's unfortunate. Demand for these cars has been insane. Has your dealer offered you any options in getting behind the wheel of one? Also, if you can wait, go for the SQ5. No one's driven the 3.0 TFSI version yet but I've driven a 3.0 TFSI S line back to back with an SQ5 TDI and the SQ5 suspension was much more fitting of what I think most of us here would want. You'd think they'd be more alike, but they're quite different. Q5 S line is good, but SQ5 is really, really gratifying.

[iconcls]

I think AoA's measurement of tier 1 and yours are different.

Was very deliberate on my part,

either AoA wants to build their image as a tier 1 performance marque stateside or they do not

emphasis on the word performance, they articulated in the past that they do, their actions speak otherwise.

[iconcls]

To be specific, Johan joined in 2006.

I have Nysschen ascending Presidency of AoA in December 2004.

[G@Fourtitude]

Was very deliberate on my part, emphasis on the word performance, they articulated in the past that they do, their actions speak otherwise.

I missed the nuance the first time. Apologies.

I guess it's a debatable term. The R8 is likely the culprit here, but I think it's done more for augmenting the brand's performance cred than any other model. By the numbers there aren't that many R8 owners but it is a hugely aspirational car. In my opinion, the same level of awareness and aspiration cannot be said for any M, AMG or RS model amongst the general public who account for the majority of sales... even at an enthusiast-heavy brand like Audi.

With the R8 being so successful in this regard, it's likely a bit of a crutch (making an assumption here) as it is not as critical for them then to have a full line of RS models. A full line of RS models would never get the level of mainstream attention that the R8 has gotten. Tony Stark in an RS 6 is a cool idea, but there's a component of practicality in an RS 6 and Tony Stark lives in a fantasy world where the R8 is more appropriate.

[G@Fourtitude]

I have Nysschen ascending Presidency of AoA in December 2004.

According to his Linked In page you are correct. I stand corrected.

Even still, the point is that practices weren't in place, even in his first few years. The undertaking he entered into was huge and there was a lot to be done. A lot of that has now been achieved. A lot remains to be done under the new management team.

[Dr99]

The point on the R8 being the halo car here in the US definitely rings true. While researching preowned options I remember reading that ownership was quite a different and high profile experience. I saw stories of people following R8 owners home to look closer and ask questions. But I still feel there's room at the top of the Audi performance ladder that can mirror the other German competitors, much like Mercedes does with the SLS and the rest of the AMG family.

George, it was funny you suggested the S6 a while back as that was my leading candidate. The 2014 option additions (specifically alcantara roof liner and black optics) has me even closer. But, like some of the other thoughts mentioned previosuly, it seems soft when compared to C7 RS6, even if it bests the C5 in all the performance numbers. I have driven it and it feels much more nimble than it appears, but that was a brief test drive.

Do you (or perhaps even Quisha could jump in) have a feel for how much Quattro GmbH contributes to the current design and build of "S" model cars?

[ChicagoAudi]

George, it was funny you suggested the S6 a while back as that was my leading candidate. The 2014 option additions (specifically alcantara roof liner and black optics) has me even closer. But, like some of the other thoughts mentioned previosuly, it seems soft when compared to C7 RS6, even if it bests the C5 in all the performance numbers. I have driven it and it feels much more nimble than it appears, but that was a brief test drive.

Do you (or perhaps even Quisha could jump in) have a feel for how much Quattro GmbH contributes to the current design and build of "S" model cars?

The softness you are suggesting is true of so many modern vehicles compared with predecessor models because of better technology and greater technological content. Even the most "brutish" of vehicles drive with a complacency missing in cars less than a decade ago.

[Dr99]

ChicagoAudi we agree on this one. My preference is that leading edge rawness that many of the best performance vehicles still have. There's no doubt all vehicles have become more refined as technology in the cars and build process has advanced. That was one of the reasons I loved my C63...it's raw nature.

[ChicagoAudi]

Dr99 - One of the best of examples of refinement and easy of use today was with Chris Harris driving a 997 turbo from 0 to 100 mph whilst drink a cola in a blinding 7.9 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnDde...eature=related