New RS6: Signs of live.

[Iceman]

There are signs of live of the new RS6.
In south Africa they start a playful advertising campaign around the Audi RS6.
With this there is a end to the question if there will be a new RS6.
The question is now: when ?.



The new RS6 will be the strongest RS model ever.
The rumoured engine is the 5.2 litre FSI V10 producing ± 550 hp.
It is conceivable that the 5.2 FSI V10 engine will be a Biturbo.

Hans.

[Leadfoot]

Hans,

There is no doubt that it will be the fastest RS model, unless the R8 do a RS version. But I doubt it will be the best in the handling department. Just as the M6/M5 are faster than the M3/CSL neither of them can match their lesser brothers around the twisties.

And even if the unbelievable did happen that it was better than the RS4, this would be short lived until the new RS/S5 or it's saloon counterpart arrives.

But this is fine because the two cars are playing to different customers. I don't know, but I reckon there is quite an age difference between RS4 and RS6 owners, apart from the odd exceptions.

As for what will power it, I still believe it will be turbo-ed but as to whether it will be V8 or V10, now that's a different matter.

[Iceman]

If the new RS6 get turbo's then i prever a 4.2 litre FSI V8 Bi-turbo.
And when the new RS6 will get a atmo engine i prever a 5.2 litre FSI V10.

Hans.

[chewym]

I think that a turbo 5.2 liter V10 would be the perfect engine. If it had the same hp per liter as the previous RS6 it would have about 563 hp, which is really good. Audi could go ahead and round that up to 575. That would really destroy the M5 and the E63. Audi could also go with a bored out 5.5 liter naturally aspirated and could probably get 575 hp as well. A V8 turbo could work as well, but I think that is the least likely engine right now. Whichever engine is used, it will need to have 550+ hp to compete with the competition.

[Qisha]

The new RS6 will raise Audi to the top concerning Power Output. At the moment the Merc 65 Series are the max. for "regular" Street Cars, not talking about Brabus&Co. So, 612HP will be beaten.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by Qisha
The new RS6 will raise Audi to the top concerning Power Output. At the moment the Merc 65 Series are the max. for "regular" Street Cars, not talking about Brabus&Co. So, 612HP will be beaten.

I like your enthusiasm Qisha, but Merc has had with engine output for a while now and never has Audi came close never mind beaten this before, why would they try to now. All the signs are that Audi are gunning for BMW's crown as best driver's car and I think IMHO that they will be looking to beat the M5's power to weight ratio, not just it's bhp. So the output of the next RS6 will be controlled by how heavy it is.

This is why I reckon it will be turbo-ed, easier to get the desired amount of power and torque.

[Qisha]

Dear Leadfoot,

the M5 is @3,59 power:weight (pro BMW figures 3,5)

How do you like ~2,9x?

Correct, the only way to achieve this is not beeing heavier as the current S6 and a turboed Engine. In fact the V10 Bi-Turbo. What comes with that quote? Beating the power:weight as well as the overall german power crown carriers.

[RXBG]

i expect the V8 R8 to do 60 in 4.0 seconds. do you think the RS6 will be designed to be able to break that barrier?

[QuattroFun]

Sorry, but it is simply not believeable that RS6 would make in excess of 612PS when even more expensive in-house peer Bentley Continental has to do with 560PS and 650Nm and closest RS6 competitors are at 507-514PS. Moreover, there is no modern 6-speed VW Tiptronic gearbox (not talking Veyron DSG or old 5-speeders from Bentleys here) that can take in excess of 750Nm currently. RS6 with twin-turbo V10 producing 550PS and maybe 650Nm assuming a engine top speed of some 7000 rpm like in S8 is still the best guess in my books.

[RXBG]

i agree. 550hp is my top figure for the RS6. the new engine will go into the R8 as well and so it cannot be more powerful than the base gallardo engine- which by then might be at 570 or so in the new gallardo......

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by QuattroFun
Sorry, but it is simply not believeable that RS6 would make in excess of 612PS when even more expensive in-house peer Bentley Continental has to do with 560PS and 650Nm and closest RS6 competitors are at 507-514PS. Moreover, there is no modern 6-speed VW Tiptronic gearbox (not talking Veyron DSG or old 5-speeders from Bentleys here) that can take in excess of 750Nm currently. RS6 with twin-turbo V10 producing 550PS and maybe 650Nm assuming a engine top speed of some 7000 rpm like in S8 is still the best guess in my books.

I agree, but the gearbox will always be the problem with this amount of torque even if it kept to 650Nm. This is why the M5 produces only 389lbs/ft of torque, it's easier to make a gearbox to cope. But alas the RS6 is always going to weigh more than the M5 what with AWD, so they will have to produce a gearbox to give it an exceptable power and torque advantage to beat it's only real rival (the BMW M5). The other question that no one has asked is, will the next RS6 by automatic or S-Tronic?

[QuattroFun]

M5 is a great car and deserves all respect, but yet it is a prime example of template thinking taken too far (motorsport blah blah...) - great engine in a good but wrong car. A high strung engine with poor low-end torgue and short gear ratios is fine for a light Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc. and as well as an M3, RS4 (barely) and of course R8 - but not heavy executive/luxury saloon with more laid back character ala M5, RS6 or E63 AMG. Yes, more torque requires heavier hardware, which is not ideal of course, but it goes with the mission at hand.

Now, toy thinking and technical curiousity aside, who would seriously buy something like a MTM RS6 Avant (!!!) with bucket front seats, roll cage and - for crying out loud - no rear seats? Does the average 50Y or so old buyer of M5:s regularly run their M5 to limiter in all traffic lights?

[steve]

Originally posted by QuattroFun


Now, toy thinking and technical curiousity aside, who would seriously buy something like a MTM RS6 Avant (!!!) with bucket front seats, roll cage and - for crying out loud - no rear seats? Does the average 50Y or so old buyer of M5:s regularly run their M5 to limiter in all traffic lights? [/B]

Something like this?

http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/AUDI-RS6-Ava...QQcmdZViewItem

I had a ride in it in march at Francorchamps... 500hp and a high 1500kg's sure went well!

[QuattroFun]

My good man, that is the one allright - thx. Yeah, I am quite sure it is an absolute rocket and probably has very decent handling as well - but what is it good for? A large and clumsy estate car as the basis re-made through an expensive weight saving diet and having no rear seats: something for fast undertakers, pet doctors on emergency call or just-on-time delivery boys? Now, what they have to do next is to shoehorn a naturally aspirating high-revving engine into it and then the ultimate paradox picture is complete... an honest Gallardo anyone?

[Radiation Joe]

...as apposed to a BMW audience.
First:
All should remember when talking about HP numbers that these are engine HP and not wheel HP. The AWD sucks at least an extra 3-4 percent away compared to RWD.
Second:
HP is what makes your car get up and go; or more accurately the area under the HP curve. If you want to talk about torque, then you have to look at the torque that makes it to the ground. You'll find out that torquey engines "feel" fast but that low torque M5 engine with 7 gears gets more torque to the ground most of the time.
Third:
My 350 HP e46 M3 is as fast as my 450 HP RS6 in almost all situations. Why? Because it weighs 700 lbs less, has a manual, and is RWD. The drivetrain sucks far less power from the BMW than does the Audi. I estimate that the Audi gets only about 350 HP to the ground where the M3 gets about 285.
Finally:
I love my RS6. Most of the time it is the vehicle I choose to drive. But I won't compare it to an M5. They are different cars. The M5 has driving "feel" that the Audi can only dream of. When I want to have fun behind the wheel, I park the Audi and get into the M3. BMWs drive like extensions of your body, whereas the Audis are like driving a video game (a really, really nice video game). HP isn't everything. Sorry if that offended anyone, but it's only my opinion.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by QuattroFun
M5 is a great car and deserves all respect, but yet it is a prime example of template thinking taken too far (motorsport blah blah...) - great engine in a good but wrong car. A high strung engine with poor low-end torgue and short gear ratios is fine for a light Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc. and as well as an M3, RS4 (barely) and of course R8 - but not heavy executive/luxury saloon with more laid back character ala M5, RS6 or E63 AMG. Yes, more torque requires heavier hardware, which is not ideal of course, but it goes with the mission at hand.

Now, toy thinking and technical curiousity aside, who would seriously buy something like a MTM RS6 Avant (!!!) with bucket front seats, roll cage and - for crying out loud - no rear seats? Does the average 50Y or so old buyer of M5:s regularly run their M5 to limiter in all traffic lights?

QuattroFun,

I was using the M5 torque as a point, not what I believe Audi should do with the RS6. I don't believe that the next RS6 will be in the same mould as the last one, this might get some people's goat up, but in my opinion it was doing the role of Luxury/Sportscar not even as well as the current M5. In this I mean the ride was way too hard to be a real Luxury car and the fact it will an auto meant it wasn't really a sportscar either.

Placing aside the performance thing for a moment, I don't know what Audi has planed for the RS6, but IMHO they should be including Magnetic Ride suspension and S-Tronic as standard. This suspension should take care of the ride quality without destroying the handling/body control and the S-Tronic will satisfy both the real drivers among us and the as you put it, the 50+ buyer for these type of cars.

Up to now Audi has choose the middle ground between BMW's M5 and Mercedes E55AMG. I would still like this to be the place the RS6 sits, but hopefully addressing the above points.

Back to the performance, Audi should drop the V10 for the RS6, using the RS4 engine with a couple of turbos should provide the desired power and torque but should be a lighter combination at the front than a V10, yes it would be to a higher state of tune, but the handling benefits more than out weigh the power advantage that the V10 will have, not to forget the economy saving from a smaller engine. What with the RS4 producing 420hp, there would have to be something wrong if this engine couldn't at least produce an extra 100+hp with a couple of turbos.

[QuattroFun]

Gentlemen, good points.

RS6: it is not and cannot be a M3 or a Gallardo and the new one should not be made based on the same receipe as the current M5 although there are indeed several areas of improvement. Why?

1) It will be heavier than an M5 in any case unless you strip it bare and then the point is surely lost, 2) it is not real sports and nor is the M5. But for comparison the RS4 steering feel and agility is not Porsche-like but it surely competes well with the standard M3 despite the weight disadvantage and offers a better ride, 3) it is not targeted at M3 buyers in the 20-40Y age bracket and to cater for those same needs, 4) the previous RS6 was very loved for its un-M5-like character - turbo shove, auto gearbox, better build quality and more sense of luxury occassion - as well as hated for its harsh ride and understeer much the same way as the current RS4 is loved for its M3-like character and best ride in class. 5) S-tronic or DSG - not to mention the SMG - is best saved for real sports cars - not sporty executive/luxury cars. The tip in S8 is very good also when it comes to manual shifting.

Save the more serious sporting intent for cars that are intended for it and up to the job in terms of size, weight and weight distribution etc. - R8 in particular and to a lesser extent RS5/RS4. Make the new RS6 an improved cross between the lovely current S8, the very nice current RS4 and the some good-some bad old RS6 - power upgrade is a given but with improved ride and throttle response (even with turbos) and less understeer without compromising feel too much at the top the list. Sure, you can do a S3 with 2.0TFSI even if the top A3 has a 3.0 V6. However, the handling/fuel advantage from a TFSI V8 4.2 versus a TFSI V10 5.2 is pretty minimal when also bearing in mind that you have to reliably pump out 550PS without too compromised durability (the 450/480PS old 4.2 RS6 had its share of problems as did the old 140PS/litre RS4) as well as cater for bragging rights...

[Benman]

Originally posted by Qisha
Dear Leadfoot,

the M5 is @3,59 power:weight (pro BMW figures 3,5)

How do you like ~2,9x?

Qisha,

If they actually achieve a number close to that figure, it would be a fantastically quick sedan! Nothing is impossible I guess.

Ben