LEX IS500 - Serious competition?

[tazsura]

Hi guyz,

Just seen spy pics of the new Lexus IS500. Is this going to be serious competition for the S4/RS4, C63 et M3? I have my doubts...

http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphoto...s-lexus-is-500

I was just wondering also, why does Lexus have such a high reputation in the US? I for one can't really see the alure of Lexus..and just regard it as expensive Toyota or a wannabe Benz. I think their design language is pretty poor..and refinement seems to be the only feather in their hat. Am I/the UK missing something?

Cheerz

Taz

[Benman]

I'll let Tailpipe take this one...

Ben

[AndyBG]

Man, don't try them, its better for you

I tryed to discus them about Lexus, and they ''killed'' me, looks like they love Lexus more than any other car

BTW, i just retuned from my first vacation this summer, and guess what car i had for driving around,

LEXUS GS300,

i realy don't see WHY is that car so good, but what i now...

All best to my favorite Audi community,

ANDY

[Benman]

Originally posted by AndyBG

All best to my favorite Audi community,

ANDY

Forever and ever,


Ben

[dxben]

I don't think the IS500 is going to compete with the RS4, simply because the RS4 has borderline legendary status, in no small part due to its herritage, its ties to the Audi racing technology and last but not least, its limited production quanity.

When you consider that the IS500 might likely not be produced with a mannual transmission, that is another mark against it.

There's one more stake in it's heart, no AWD.

I think the IS500 is probably going to have more effect on BMW's M3 numbers if it has any effect at all, and then, maybe even more likely on MB, since I think MB suffers from less sporty handling which is a closer fit for Lexus' typical customer.

We can't say for sure about the car itself until it's released, but I am certainly not going to covet anything from Lexus for the forseeable future. They seem to me like a "me too" company.

Anyone can make a car go fast, but can they make it with the refinement, safety, alure, and impeccable handling capabilities of an RS or M car?

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Leadfoot]

I agree, the Lexus IS500 could be the best small sports saloon in the world and it still wouldn't sale in enough numbers to complete with the M3/S4 or Merc AMGs. Lexus have an air of O.A.P. about it in Europe and especially in the UK, now I have to add that I like the Lexus IS models and the photoshop pictures of what the IS500 will look like is a real turn-on. But you just know that they will get so much right with the car, they are the one company other than Audi that can do interior quality, but will fall at the last hurdle (involvement).

This is something that Audi are only now getting right with the RS4 and the new TT, it would be amazing if Lexus get it right first time round with the IS500. Does anyone know if it will be a hybrid or not?

[SoCal]

Lexus generally appeals to people who like comfortable, reliable, quiet, ergonomic cars with good fit-and-finish and non-threatening design. Lexus does not generally appeal to drivers - those who actually like to drive. Want road feel, precise steering, an emphatic exhaust note, and a sense of engagement with the ACTIVity of driving, then you probably are not a big Lexus fan. Manual tranny and AWD plus sporting character? Look elsewhere.

Of course, there are some exceptions here and there. I personally know one Lexus driver who loves her SC and drives somewhat aggressively, but she is about to switch to the new Jag XK.

The general profile of the cars and the customers means the the new IS500 won't put a big dent in the sales numbers of European sports sedans. And Lexus won't make it aggressive enough to alienate its base or to attract loyalists of German marques, no matter how fast it goes.

[tailpipe]

Hi everyone, sorry to have been absent for a while, but the real world has kept me busy.

First of all, shouldn't this thread be moved to all performance vehicles rather than being in the RS4 section?

As Benman pointed out, I have lately become a bit of a Lexus fan, so naturally wanted to respond to some of the comments made about their cars. Since the brand arrived in the UK, it has indeed been a bit of an OAP's car. It seems that senior citizens cared less about driver involvement, badge appeal and performance and more about reliability, build integrity and longevity. Whatever you say about Lexus, they are beautifully made and don't break down.

Up until 2004, I wouldn't have been seen dead in a Lexus car. Then two models arrived that forced me to re-appraise the brand. First up was the RX400h. This is an extremely clever piece of kit. It delivers astonishing economy for an SUV, but is still an extremely practical alternative to a Range Rover or an A6. In fact, it sits neatly between them both. It isn't a great car to drive, but as a family wagon it's hard to beat.

Then the GS300/ 430 arrived. Again, a very clever car, loaded with extras, extremely comfortable and astonishing value versus the established German premium marques. But still it wasn't focused enough as a driver's car or stylish enough for me.

After these, the new IS arrived. When you examine what this car is and does, you qucikly realise that it is completely over-engineered for the sector. It is exactly like all Mercedes-Benzes used to be. The sheer integrity of the design is a league above anything that MB and BMW currently make and, I regret to say, Audi.

What clinches it for me is the styling. I just love it. It is as naturally right as Chris Bangle's bungled ldesign language for BMW is so intuitively wrong.

The interior of the IS is also a work of genius and the way in which the touch screen SatNav integrates with the stereo, Ipod, reversing camera and so on, shows that the Japanese get in-car electronics in a way that leaves the Germans fumbling for answers. The cabin is a place where you'll be happy to sit in during long journeys. The seats are very comfortable. Like the GS, the IS totally cocoons you from the road.

I am sorry but I find comments that say the new IS is less involving to drive than an Audi A4 hard to swallow. It is a proper rear-wheel drive chassis with excellent weight balance. What is impressive is that the suspension perfectly combines long-distance comfort with responsive cornering.

The automatic shift is also very clever and easy to use. (Lexus manuals are a disaster, so let's move on.)

The 2.5 litre engine is like a Swiss watch. It revs willingly and provides more than adequate power for average daily commuting. It will also cruise happily at 100+ mph.

In short, this car is great. it does the popularity of this car has led to a 6-month waiting list, yet it is still an uncommon sight realtive to the 3-Series. Mine arrives in September.

This brings us to the IS500. It looks like this will definitely make production for Autumn 2007 as a 2008 model year car. Contrary to what has been said above, it looks as if it could have AWD. It may also offer the same Magnetti Marelli automatic gearchange used in the forthcoming Lexus GT500 supercar (and high-end Ferarris).

To be honest, there is a lot of information about this car that still isn't known. Apart from having a V8 and 400 bhp, we don't know much about it. It will have a switchable traction control - in fact 2007 Lexus models will also have this feature.

Will it be as good as the next M3 or latest RS4? Indeed, it would be surprising if the IS500 were better the latest crop of German supersaloons, but I wouldn't bet against it. Toyota is fully committed to making the Lexus brand superior in every respect and fully recognises that sporting credentials are part of the brief. As Leadfoot correctly points out (again), Audi only got with the sports programme a few years ago.

Beyond the IS, the Lexus GT500 (LF-A supercar) is almost production ready. This should be every bit as good as the R8. In fact, I can't wait to see which one is the better drive.

Before the GT500 arrives, the next LS will be launched. The pundits are predicting that it will move the whole ubersaloon game up a notch or two. Which will be no mean feat, because the new S-Class has itself just done this.

With every model I have described, Lexus is more or less equal to its German competitors across all critical dimensions. But where it really starts to pull ahead is on value. You simply get more car for less money.

In comparison, Audis are starting to get very expensive. Traditionally, it was always Audi that made comparitive BMWs look expensive. The jump in Lexus sales this year in Europe shows that we are starting to take these guys seriously. While it was easy to eclipse the Germans in the USA, doing so in their core European markets is likely take longer, but it is certainly starting to happen and is a process that German labour costs are accelerating.

[Benman]

Originally posted by tailpipe

As Benman pointed out, I have lately become a bit of a Lexus fan, so naturally wanted to respond to some of the comments made about their cars.

Knew you coudn't resist.

Originally posted by tailpipe

I am sorry but I find comments that say the new IS is less involving to drive than an Audi A4 hard to swallow.

Big time hard to swallow. After driving both, I think not. IS clearly has the "driver's" edge.

Originally posted by tailpipe

Before the GT500 arrives, the next LS will be launched. The pundits are predicting that it will move the whole ubersaloon game up a notch or two. Which will be no mean feat, because the new S-Class has itself just done this.

Especially the LS600h. It will be a marvel of modern technology.
8 speed transmission!
@420-450hp
@500-600lb-ft (although that's tuff to guage as you can't combine the torque of the electric motors to the engine's torque, but you get the picture).
0-60mph in @5 seconds flat (maybe better).
AWD traction!
all the while getting high 20's (27-29) mpg in a petrol.

And BTW, Lexus is promising this car to be the World's Quietest Car (RR and all Bentleys included!)

To think what Toyota could do with a Bio Diesel Hybrid blows my mind.

Ben

[SoCal]

It would be marvelous if Lexus makes good on its promise. They certainly have the wherewithall to do so.

Reliability, technological innovation, environmental conciousness , good value and (ideally) sporting character would be a great combination. Whenever any car maker excels, the others are all pushed to higher levels to stay in the game.

...Audi included.

[Leadfoot]

No way is the Lexus IS as sporty a drive as a A4 Quattro. After driving a IS250, it reminded me of a very well built Volvo S60, it is clearly basing it style of driving on comfort more than sportiness. For most this will suit their needs fine, but me, I prefer the stiffer ride and the more pointy steering of the Audi. I know it's not fair to compare my S4 with an IS250, so will not judge the IS500 until it's released and get a decent ride in it.

One thing for sure, it interior is a place I could spent a lot of time in. And it's stereo is way better than the Bose in my car.

[Benman]

Originally posted by Leadfoot
No way is the Lexus IS as sporty a drive as a A4 Quattro.

Leadfoot,

We usually agree on a lot of stuff, but I'd have to respectfully disagree on that one. Not as sporty? Really? I'm suprised you feel that way. On a regular A4 quattro, the A4 feels miles heavier in the front end and doesn't have near the turn in and crispness that the IS has. Comparing 2.0T quattro to IS250, the IS has (IMHO anyway) a much more neutral handling about it then the plow straight ahead Audi.

Don't get me wrong, the S and especially RS models do a lot to address this, but they still lack the basic structure that the IS has been given with to start, i.e. a better than 60%front/40%rear weight dist.

Now, I'm hoping the B8 A4 will address all of this, but in the meanwhile, I'd dare say that the IS is more sporty than the A4.

Still an Audi fan...

Ben

[AndyBG]

Originally posted by Benman


Still an Audi fan...

Yeah, wright!



Kidding!

[tailpipe]

Hello Leadfoot,

I have to say that I agree with Benman on the handling of the IS versus the A4. The fundamental physics of the two vehicles without doubt favour the IS, which is much more neutral of the two in corners. Much of the handling potential of the IS is blunted by the nanny electrics, but in 2007 model year, all new IS cars will come with a switch to turn off the traction control. An IS350 without TC should be every bit as involving as an M3 and quite a lot better than even an S4.

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by tailpipe
Hello Leadfoot,

I have to say that I agree with Benman on the handling of the IS versus the A4. The fundamental physics of the two vehicles without doubt favour the IS, which is much more neutral of the two in corners. Much of the handling potential of the IS is blunted by the nanny electrics, but in 2007 model year, all new IS cars will come with a switch to turn off the traction control. An IS350 without TC should be every bit as involving as an M3 and quite a lot better than even an S4.

Tailpipe & Ben,

The model I drove was a friend's IS250 S/E, it was a lovely car not get me wrong, but it drove like the Volvo S60 I use to have. Softly sprung and good seats, I car I felt more suited to long motorway drive than a blast down a country road, maybe the sport model drives better. The IS250 is a heavy car with only 200bhp and the combination of this and the S/E spec maybe clouded my judgement a little.

I read some reports on the IS350 sport, all good and if it was on sale in the UK, it would be on my short list of possiblities.

The S4 I feel is a better allrounder than a M3, yes less involving than an M3, which is in MHO the opposite. Hopefully the IS350 is somewhere in the middle.

[Benman]

Originally posted by AndyBG
Yeah, wright!



Kidding!

Audis might not be the best track car, but they're still my favorite car, flaws and all.

Ben

[AndyBG]

Originally posted by Benman


Audis might not be the best track car, but they're still my favorite car, flaws and all.

Ben

That is the spirit!

[FrenchAudi]

Last's month Road and Track (I think that is the one) did a test between several AWD cars including the A4 2.0T Quattro and the IS250 AWD, BMW 325xi and others.
Well the IS did not do so well against the A4.
The Audi had one of the best times in 0-60, slalom and many other categories.
(It was dead last in the Auto cross 2 seconds behind the Audi)
0-60 of 6.5 for the Audi and 7.4 for the IS 250 AWD (last place).
Audi had the fastest speed in the slalom of 69.2 mph which even beat the Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT spec B.

For them the Audi was by far the sportiest of the bunch.

I drove the IS 250 and it is a nice car and well balanced, but my A4 felt quicker, more agile and not as cushy as the Lexus.

The quality of the IS in the interior is very, very good, but I still felt like Audi was superior. Audi just spends more attention to details in their cars.