Why we can expect great things from new RS6

[tailpipe]

This is a quote from Audi's latest Annual Report:

"The company achieved its highest rates of growth for the first four months in the C-segment. With a total of 79,414 units delivered, the Audi A6 recorded an increase of 42 percent. This makes the Audi A6 the worldwide market leader in the premium C segment."

The A6 is a real winner for Audi. It looks good. It goes well. And is quite a bit more reliable than the Mercedes-Benz E-Class, it's nearest rival. Interestingly, both cars are ahead of the BMW 5-Series. Audi has achieved growth at the expense of these two brands. Personally, I think that BMW's dog ugly styling has begun to bite.

But with Audi, the best is yet to come, with two hot models in the future mix:

(1) RS6: They've got the new 5.2 litre FSI V-10 going well - and we know for sure that it can be tweaked well beyond the 435 bhp currently pushed out by the S6. In fact, I just don't think power will be an issue. I just hope that the next RS6 is going to handle really well. I also hope it delivers good consumption.

(2) V-12 TDI: R10 race technology looks like it will filter down into an RS-D model. It won'y have the outright pace of the RS6, but will be pretty close. Expect 25-30% better consumption.

Both will have twin-turbos.

[Benman]

I think personally the next RS 6 will be a monster. As long as it is a TTV10, it will be extrememly quick. I don't see it being light (I expect @4475lbs), so quattro has their work cut out for them.

If they can pull off the miracle of making it handle better than the RS 6 MkI while weighting @400 lbs more, than they have achieved something. Me getting it, that's another story as I doubt I'll be able to afford the $100K price tag... but it will be sweet...


Ben

[moldowan]

and when is the expected release date again???
2 years from now?
-moldy

[Benman]

Originally posted by moldowan
and when is the expected release date again???
2 years from now?
-moldy

For us in the States, probably.

Ben

[Aronis]

just put the Ohlin Overcoils in instead of the DRC and PRESTO better handling.

Mike

[MJN]

The possibility of very high bhp rates and handling is very good, but what worries me is the weight issue. If the S6 is already more than 1700 kg and they'll add some turbo's they definitely have to think of saving weight somewhere, because it will really affect the handling.

Let's wait and see what they have for us.

[Leadfoot]

On all of the tests that have been reported on the new S6 there has been no bad remarks towards the handling or anything apart from the ride which is Audi old school rock hard. Because of the 40/60 split in the quattro, all said the nose is keen to change direction even with such a heavy engine and the engine is rated as a peach.

We have seen what Audi can make of the new DRC in the RS4, it handles beautifully and the ride is better than the A8. I believe with such an important car like the RS6, Audi will be pulling out all the stops and will add magnetic ride suspension to make is at the very least a match for the M5, but with all of the great Audi qualities. We all know what I mean by this, all of the power there all of the time and with quattro the safety to use it in all weathers.

The only problem I see is the price, the S6 in my opinion is over priced at 55k, Audi normal add £15K to the RS model over the S, I reckon this time it won't be enough, £20K will be nearer the mark. A RS6 will be harder to sale at £75K no matter how quick it will be, it's not got the brand image of Mercedes to price like that.

[clam]

Weight does not effect handling. The grip of a tyre depends on how much weight is on it. That's what downforce is about. Weight is sort of a natural downforce. So a heavy car does generate a lot of lateral force in a corner, but the vertical force on the tyre also generates more grip. So it evens out.
They say the Veyron handles the twisties like a Lotus Elise, and if I'm not mistaken, it is heavier than the RS6 will be.

The price of weight is in overall economy. Everything needs to be bigger on a heavy car.


What comes first? The expensive car, or the expensive image? Perhaps Audi doesn't have an expensive image, simply b/c they don't make really expensive cars. Mercedes shows that's it not all about value/money. Mostly the image of value, through money.

Perhaps the RS6 will be able to take advantage of economy of scale. S6, S8, Gallardo, R8, RS6, RS8?, Q7, A5?, A7?. That's a lot of cars that will be, or could be, using a version of the same engine and transmission.

The Porsche Cayenne uses a VR6. It wouldn't be too far fetched if they borrow the V10 for their SUV and Panamera sedan. Both of them roll out of a VAG factory, with final assembly by Porsche.
An Audi/Lambo V10 Porsche makes more sense than the 6cyl from the Golf. Maybe daddy Porsche can hook them up with the variable Turbos from the 997.

VAG supplies about 30 percent of the parts that Porsche uses. That's the main reason why Porsche bought the max allowed amount of 20% of VWs stock. This limit is called the Volkswagen law, and will soon be overturned by the EU. They bought the stock to protect their main supplier. And now they that are on the board, the amount of work that VAG does for Porsche will increase. Porsche is interlocked with VAG. They will rise and fall together.

So Porsche will very much keep track of what the VAG brands are doing. Audi basically needs permission from Porsche to build the RS6. It is not unthinkable that a mutual benefit will be part of the bussines plan for the RS6. Seeing how similar it will be to the Panamera.

So in conclusion, the price of the RS6 might be reasonable. Economy of scale. It could be a sort of prototype of the Panamera.

[QuattroFun]

Just to remind, Audi is a very strong brand in Europe and in fact some European consumer studies show that Audi drivers are typically higher income/wealthier than corresponding MB & BMW drivers so it being lesser than MB & BMW and thus having to be cheaper than key rivals applies to the US and maybe some parts of Asia only. Of course, Porsche is something quite else in this context not to mention Bentley, Aston etc..

Weight is a real problem for everything from engine to brakes to suspension - still, I just hope they make the RS6 really good and something to be proud of without cutting cost corners even it means that it will not sell well in the very price sensitive US market. It will be small volume in any case and there will be plenty of demand for the car if it delivers elsewhere where it is considerably more expensive anyway .

[Tom C]

I highly doubt that the new RS6 will have a twin-turbo V-10. From what I have read, the new R8 sports car will have an optional 520hp version of the N/A 5.2L V-10 (standard engine is the RS4 V-8). There will be no coprorate justification to slap on the twin turbo set-up just for the RS6. Especially since they will have met their goal of topping the M5's 507hp and E/CLS63's 510hp without having to resort to forced induction. I also don't think their will be a significant weight gain from the S6. In fact, I think they may have left room for a more extensive use of light weight materials that could actually bring the weight down from the S6's 4,250lb curb weight.

Tom

[moldowan]

Tom,
I believe your right on the money! 520hp N/A a bit lighter than s6 20-30lbs maybe.
Thats my wager and i feel confident-
-moldy

[SpinEcho]

Originally posted by clam
Weight does not effect handling. The grip of a tyre depends on how much weight is on it. That's what downforce is about. Weight is sort of a natural downforce. So a heavy car does generate a lot of lateral force in a corner, but the vertical force on the tyre also generates more grip. So it evens out.
They say the Veyron handles the twisties like a Lotus Elise, and if I'm not mistaken, it is heavier than the RS6 will be.

Your definition of handling sounds like my definition of grip - in fact, you use the words interchangeably. You can have all the grip in the world, but sh*t handling - and that pretty much sums up the RS6.

Handling to me means: road feel, turn-in, balance, adjustability while cornering, etc. In general, lighter cars do all these things better than heavier ones.

[clam]

Good observation. Handling = grip.

The tyres' grip are the only thing that connect the car with the road. The tyre's grip is the thing that translate all the forces into action. A car basically runs on grip. Without it, every thing else is futile.

Handling is the balance of grip.
understeer: more rear grip
neutral: equal grip
oversteer: more front grip

When you controle the distribution of grip, you controle the car. B/c grip is the thing that moves the car. Grip makes a car accelerate or stop. Grip makes a car change direction.

Have you ever seen an F1 car loose its aerodynamics aids? It becomes useless. It's has to limp back to the pits slower that a family car with a Diesel. Why? B/c it has no grip. It's too light for those fat tyres. At that point, it would help to be a little heavier.

[MJN]

Originally posted by clam
Good observation. Handling = grip.

The tyres' grip are the only thing that connect the car with the road. The tyre's grip is the thing that translate all the forces into action. A car basically runs on grip. Without it, every thing else is futile.

Handling is the balance of grip.
understeer: more rear grip
neutral: equal grip
oversteer: more front grip

I disagree with you. Handling is about so much more than just the tyres. In your point of view, a car with a neutral balance can have a good handling, but if the're isn't any grip at all, the handling is still bad, no matter how good the balance is.

Handling is the way the car handles in the corners, the time it takes to translate steerinput to an action on the road, weight balance, damper/spring ajustments etc etc. The balance of the grip is just a part of it. Handling is definitely not just grip.

And it's b*llsh*t to say that weight doesn't matter for an RS6, because we want the RS6 to become nimble and edgy, instead of heavy and numb. An comparison to the Veyron is also nut true, because that has 1001 bhp, a figure which the RS6 can't reach and therefore the RS6 has to think about it's weight.

Why would F1 cars be only 600 kg and the teams working round the clock to save 10 grams of the car?

[Leadfoot]

Originally posted by MJN
Why would F1 cars be only 600 kg and the teams working round the clock to save 10 grams of the car?

The real reason F1 team fight for every grams, is at this point light weight help the car accelerate and brake.

I do agree with most of what you say about handling. Grip is not the be all and end all, a M6 or RS4 may near enough match a 997 Carerra S around the ring, but in no way can you say they handling as well as to the Porsche. Steering feel is every bit as important as grip if not more so, without it you will never know when a car will break free (lose grip) and this is why most cars company add in understeer in to a car's set-up as a safety feature, this includes Audi. Nobel is one car which does not understeer at all, but has possibly one of the best steering feels about, but it is an extreme sportscar.

I personally would prefer a little less grip for a bit more steering feel and everytime I drive the brother's Boxster I say this. I would rate the Boxster/Cayman the best handling cars out there, they corner better than a 997 but aren't as twitchy on the road, and are one of very few rwd cars which handling just as well in the wet. If only it had the other qualities of Audi it would be the car for me, but alas it doesn't so my only hope is for Audi to add this small thing in to future cars.

I reackon the main reason to keep the weight down from a handling point of view is with less weight the springs, dampers, roll bars etc. don't have to be as heavy and this will aid ride comfort, any Lotus is proof of this. Heavy cars have more weight to keep in check and this normally means very hard suspension and poor ride comfort, eg. Audis. The RS4 is really the first to buck the trend and lets hope not the last.

[clam]

It's all about slip angle really. Which is a consequence of grip.

Slip angle is the actual direction of a wheel. A wheel does not always go the way it is pointed. In a corner, the rear wheels for instance point outside the corner. But its direction follows the corner.
There is a momentum trying to make the car go straight in the corner (Newtons 1st law of motion), and there is a force that resists it (grip). The combination of these two forces determins the slip angle of the wheel. The slip angles of the four wheels together determin the direction of the car.

So the grip effects the direction of the indiviual tyres, and the car as a whole. The grip in turn is effected by the forces on the tyre.
There is the vertical force, there is the lateral force, and there is the longitudinal force.

Vertical;
will increase grip. It's the law of friction. If you push down on something, it's resistance to motion will increase.
A car is able to accelerate b/c the contact patch is resisting motion. If it didn't resist, then the wheels would just spin, and the car would not move.

Rubber has a strong elastic property. That will increase the friction it can generate. A solid wooded wheel for instance would not be able to generate that much friction.

The vertical force is the mass of the car, or aerodynamic downforce.

Lateral;
will decrease grip. This is one of the forces that tries to move the object. So it works against the friction. How much of this force a car can handle, depends on how great the friction is.

The lateral force is centrigual force. A combination of speed, turn radius, and mass of the vehicle. In this case, the mass is working against the grip.

Longitudinal;
will decrease grip. This is again a force that works against the friction that the contact patch has with the ground. Just in a different direction.

These forces are the result of acceleration and deceleration.


To recap. Grip determins the direction of the wheel, and it is effected by mass, downforce, speed, turn radius, acceleration, and deceleration. The combination of the grip of the four wheel determin the direction of the whole car.

The total mass of the vehicle works in both ways. It offers more friction, but also increases the forces that counter that friction. The balance between the two will be determined by the choice of tyre, suspension tuning, etc... Both heavy and light cars will have to find that balance. In practice, light cars like the Lotus Elise and the McLaren F1 have had trouble finding the balance. The original F1 was only able to generate 0.86g of lateral resistance. While the Citroën Xantia of that period, with its hydrolic suspension, performed 0.94g on regular street tyres. Later on, the Mclaren F1 LM got special tyres that pulled its performance up to 1.01g.
The total mass of the vehicle does not effect its grip ability, as long as a good balance is found.

Mass distribution will effect the forces on the individual tyres. Just like the total mass, the effect will work both ways. Positive (vertical), and negative (lateral). The combination of which will effect the total direction of the vehicle.

The pivotal point also plays a role. The car turns around a certain point. The further the mass is from the point, the harder it will have to accelerate to reach a certain point. This will require more grip from the tyres. This point is toward the rear (b/c the rear wheel don't turn), so weight should be towards the rear.

RWD, FWD, AWD:
Acceleration will effect the grip in a negative way. This gives RWD a unique feature. You can change the slip angle, aka the direction, of the rear wheels independently from the slip angle of the front wheels. You can also independently effect the direction of the front wheels, with an invention called the steering wheel. This independent controle over the grip of the front and the rear is why RWD is considered the best handling car from a drivers' standpoint. RWD gives a kind of controle that is not possible with FWD or AWD.

With FWD the acceleration force effects the front, which leaves no direct controle over the direction of the rear. You only have direct controle over the front.
AWD effects all the tyres equally, so the balance of grip between the front and rear doesn't change directly with acceleration. Again, you only have direct controle over the front, with the steering wheel. And only a indirect controle of the rear.

Understeer is build in b/c it is easy to compensate. You just turn a little more. Oversteer is not easy to react to, b/c you have to countersteer. That means bring the wheels into the opposite direction. Which requires a lot more effort from the driver, than reacting to understeer.
Neutral steer is the ideal. But since so many changing factors come into play, it could change into oversteer. So it is not a safe option for the suspension tuning of a road car. It is the fastest way around a corner though, so racecars will try to achieve this balance. It will be different for every track. Hard braking corners will bring more force on the front, for instance.


The grip is the force that moves the car. Many forces act on the car, and it's the grip that combines all these forces into motion. If a car handles great, it means you have a great direct controle over the grip of the tyres. If a car has a good 'feel', it means the controle over the grip feels very natural. It means the designers have made sure you can accuratly predict how your actions will effect the grip balance of the car. Being able to predict the grip means more controle. But a lot of factors have to be dealt with.
RWD is easier to predict, b/c the rear is independent from the front. So RWD handles better.

I will restate that it all comes down to grip.

[Leadfoot]

Clam,

You lost me at slip angle. Technically you know way more than me, I only have experience in understanding put to do when grip is lost. Though I don't know any thing about most of that post, one thing I do disagree with is your way with which you would deal with understeer. Understeer is a safety net for inexperienced driver, namely joe public. When you enter a corner to fast the car is basically designed to understeer (let the driver (he/her) know when grip has be lost) the normal reaction is to lift off the throttle which in turn regains grip, not as you stated turn the wheel a bit more. In rallying you are taught to take off turn to regain grip, the more turn you add the more it understeers and I can't believe there would be any difference between gravel to road. The only real difference between rallying and racing is the line taken through the corner.

Rwd is the easiest for an experienced driver to control, but unlike fwd you have a choice on how you regain grip when understeer happens, either lift throttle to make to nose come into line or if the car has enough power add throttle to break grip at the rear which in turn returns grip to the front. Awd is different from rwd in that adding throttle bring on not oversteer but four wheel drift which is the maximum forward motion.

With oversteer rwd differs from both fwd and awd, with it you steer into the slide, unlike fwd and awd which you add throttle to control the slide. But neither oversteer or understeer is best for a quick lap, ask any racing driver.

[clam]

Slip angle is the angle between the direction the wheel is pointed in, and the direction it moves in.
The slip angle of the car as a whole is the angle between the way the car is pointed, and the actual direction of the car. With oversteer, for instance, the car is pointed towards the inside of the corner it is taking.
If the car is sliding sideways across a road, then the slip angle is 90°.
I forgot to add that in my explanation, and I can see how it can be confusing for someone not familiar with the term.

A car with dailed in understeer is understeering at any speed. The front is always sliding outside the radius. It always has a certain slip angle. Even at 5km/h.
The media uses the term only when the traction has been lost, but understeer is present an any speed. It means there is an angle between the way the car is pointing, and the direction it has. With understeer the car is pointing outside its radius. This can be as little as 1°.

I agree that in the extreme situation that the front tyres are at their limit, understeer can't be fixed by turning more. I'll just make you loose the grip completely.
But for normal driving, this isn't the case. The front is always slipping a little bit. And you compensate by turning more, b/c the tyres still have enough grip to deal with the extra slip. Only when the maximum grip has been reached, do you need to resort to tricks like lift off oversteer to pull the car straight.