New RS4 vs New M3?

[buyalemon]

Guess this will be a close match (as the last time)! Which car will be the best? ....and why? Audi must have been considering what the next M3 will be like when they developed RS4 ....the same ofcourse goes for BMW!

//Magnus

[kujo]

I'll buy the new RS4 over the new M for the same reasons I bought my S4 over the current M3.

Styling, 4 doors and AWD.

The interiors of the BMW's are just not what I dig.
Plus, M's in So Cal are a dime a dozen.
Every chump, wanna be actor type drives them.
Or attempts to.

Not that I'm dissing the M3/5, it's a great car.

Just too many of em here.
And not what I love.

My S will give up the garage to an RS at years end.
(or whenever the RS4 arrives in America)

It'll be fun though,when the both arrive.

kj

[Benman]

Originally posted by kujo
I'll buy the new RS4 over the new M for the same reasons I bought my S4 over the current M3.

Styling, 4 doors and AWD.

Not that I'm dissing the M3/5, it's a great car.

Just too many of em here.
And not what I love.

kj

Ditto. RS 4 over M3, although expect a very LARGE price premium.

Ben

[kujo]

Do you mean premium above sticker ?

or just the msrp ?

I can probably get you one at or below sticker !!

kj

[A4toS4]

Originally posted by kujo
Do you mean premium above sticker ?

I can probably get you one at or below sticker !!

kj

hey...what about me?!!?!?!?!?

p.s. thanks for calling me! I was waiting all friggen night!
see ya when i get back from ur home town!
maybe i'll bring you something from mike's pastry.


p.p.s. RS4 to replace my S4 as well :-)
I wish this stupid year would just hurry up already.
Bring on 06!

[kujo]

You already know that I'll hook you up, since your 'other'guy is not at that 'other'dealer.....

kj

[A4toS4]

Originally posted by kujo
You already know that I'll hook you up, since your 'other'guy is not at that 'other'dealer.....

kj

good answer. maybe i'll bring you some chow-daa as well
oh wait..i forgot i have to bring two suit cases of the missus clothes back with me.
I guess you're only getting mikes!

go to sleep!

[tailpipe]

BMW is very aware that the current M3 has become too popular and thus too common. It has been delighted by the success of the E46 model. I own one presently and can only congratulate them on producing the finest car I've ever driven. For anyone who hasn't driven an M3, it really is worth checking out.

The rub with the M3 is that while it is a true driver's car, it is not a great ownership proposition. I have been deeply shocked at the extent to which quality at BMW has fallen down. I have no end of problems with my M3. Engine repaired twice under warranty. Traction control failure. Electrics failure. Headlining falling off after barely 16 months of ownership.

And, yes, it is terrible in winter conditions. In fact I'd almost say terrifying. For all these reasons, i shall be upgrading to an RS4, which is available as an Avant, so is likely to keep my wife and kids happy as well as me!

So what of the next M3? First, expect it to cost much, much more. In the UK it presently costs around £42,000 loaded with vital extras. The next one will be nearer £50,000.

Yes, the E90 M3 will have a V-8 and 400 bhp. It will be a focused drivers's car as before, but will retain many of the same limitations. I expect the straight line performance of both M3 and RS4 to be quite close. In terms of handling, I think that on a dry road or track, the M3 will have the edge, but it should be much closer than before - although we really need wait and see a comparison with the current M3 before we draw any conclusions. One thing I do not doubt, however, is what will happen on a wet road in winter: the RS4 will stomp all over the M3. In short, the RS4 will be the car for the real world, or as Audi bills it, the 365 day a year performance car.

In the final analysis, the choice you'll have to make will be the same as before: BMW a totally agile, responsive driver's car with a 50:50 weight balance, rear-wheel drive that oversteers on the limit. The Audi RS4: benign and predictable handling versus being able to feel with your backside what the car is doing, still a nose-heavy AWD car based on a front wheel drive chassis that understeers on the limit.

For me, the BMW is a total thrill, but only sometimes; whereas the Audi inspires total confidence in all conditions all of the time. The choice is yours...

[Spada]

Well put tailpipe. That pretty much sums up the difference between the cars. I test-drove the m3 before I got my s4: It was a cold, damp, winter's day, and I made up my mind very quickly that it felt like a go-kart, and that wasn't what I wanted. The interior was absolutely no comparison either. The m3 might be a good deal lighter than the s4, but when you're inside it, it feels like they saved the weight purely by their choice of the plastics which surround you.

[Benman]

Originally posted by kujo
Do you mean premium above sticker ?

or just the msrp ?

I can probably get you one at or below sticker !!

kj

I mean a large premium over the M3 price. Right now M3s sell for @$55K. Even if BMW hikes the price to $65K (Which seems possible) it will still be @10K LESS than the RS 4.

My point is only that your not buying the RS 4 for the price, but because you


Ben

[kujo]

Got ya !!!

[buyalemon]

I haven't seen any pictures of the upcomming M3 ...but the ordinary E90 looks like a crash between 1-series and a Nissan
(D-A-T-S-U-N) Primera! If they are going to use the old M5 V8 ...it will certainly move forward ...but it might be too big!?

[RXBG]

correction. the current M3 when fully loaded tops at about 65K. the RS will be 70K fully loaded. the RS is in a different performance league than the current M3. this justifies the price premium which isn't much if you ask me.

[M&M]

Originally posted by RXBG
correction. the current M3 when fully loaded tops at about 65K.

I cannot believe how grown men carry on to defend their brand. It's just a car man: Here's a fully loaded M3 with SMG which is THE most expensive option.



E90 330, pricing has just been released here. Has more power, features & is bigger but is 2% more expensive that the E46 330. So 415hp E90 M3 will not be over $60K.

Then BMW claim E46 M3 does 0-100 in 5.2.

AMS 1/2003 it was tested:

http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/m32003-2.htm

0-100 in 4.8 & 0-200 in 16.8. (1/4 mile 13.0 @ 173).

So it COMFORTABLY beat the claims. Maybe this test was a once off fluke. Well, actually almost every test of the M3 in Germany has beaten the claims.

Here's a test done 2 years later by the same mag:

http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/m3e462005-1.htm

0-100 in 4.8 & 0-200 in 17.6 & the test car was heavy as it was fitted with almost every optional extra you can fir on an M3.

M3 CSL BMW claim does 0-100 in 4.9 & 0-200 in 17.2.

http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/m3cslst2003-1.htm

Tested it got 0-100 in 4.8 & 0-200 in 16.7.

The same with the E60 M5. BMW claim 0-200 in 14.5. There have been numerous tests that get in in the high 13's & 2 tests that got mid 13's. BMW claim 0-100 in 4.7 & the 2 tests already posted on here got 4.4.

NOW, so we see that some OEM's like to underpromise & over-deliver. Not picking on Audi but I find it weird that they struggle to match their claims, especially the NA cars.

Audi RS6, 450hp

Performance
0-62 mph (0-100 kmh) 4.9 sec. (manufacturer's claim)
0-124 mph (0-200 kmh) 17.8 sec. (manufacturer's claim)

http://www.einszweidrei.de/audi/rs62002-1.htm

Sport Auto 9/2002 got the sedan to 100 in 4.9 (matched the claim) & to 200 in 18.7! The fact that it did 0-100 in 4.9 on that run proves there was nothing wrong with it.

Here's a 488hp chipped RS6 sedan that just manages to match the claims for the stock car.

http://www.einszweidrei.de/audi/rs6wimmer2002-1.htm

Audi claims the RS6+ 480hp is EVEN faster than the RS6, but here it does 0-200 in 18.0:

http://www.einszweidrei.de/audi/rs6plus2004-2.htm

& here's a different RS6+ that did 17.8. So it's not just that car:

http://www.einszweidrei.de/audi/rs6plus2004-1.htm

There is one RS6 that did beat the claims but it was weird because it was faster than the MTM RS6.

But it's when we get onto the NA S4 that things get ugly. Audi Claim 0-100 in 5.2 & 0-200 in 19.0:

http://www.einszweidrei.de/audi/s4l2003-1.htm

5.4 & 19.9 for sedan

5.7 & 21.0 for sedan (talk about way off the mark!)

5.6 & 21.1 for Avant

So my question is this. The RS4 is coming for around $70K. Audi claim 4.8 to 100 & 16.6 to 200. That would make it about as fast as the stock E46 M3 Sport Auto tested IF THE RS4 MATCHES ITS CLAIMS.

I reckon it will match its 4.8 claim to 100, but 0-200 it will do low 17's, instead of high 16's.

[M&M]

More proof that Audi are struggling to match their claims. They claim the S4 does 0-100 in 5.2. As does BMW claim for the M3 & AMG for the C32.

As you can see this is a shoot-out where the cars are tested on the same day. Seems Audi are the only ones not doing what they said they would. BMW beat their claim again:




Here's some 0-60. The M3 is SMG which is slower than manual:



Here AMG & BMW beat their claims:



SO the lesson to be learnt here is that the RS4 might not even match its claims of 4.8 to 100 & 16.8 to 200. I hope for Audi's sake that it does, as the RS4 will be here for a good few years & it will have to do 16's to beat the current competitors.

[Nordschleife]

you make one fundemental error

you believe what journalists write

please base your opinions of cars on your OWN experience NOT what you read in magazines. We all read magazines for ourselves.

If you were ever unfortunate enough to have to actually work with motoring journalists you would realise that very few of them can drive, and almost none of them have any regard for anything more profound than the appearance of accuracy.

I'll agree that Paul Frere knows what he is writing about.

R+C

[M&M]

OK that's a good argument. However, I would counter that by saying that I have posted 3 shootouts. These cars were tested on the same day by the same driver. The C32 & M3 had no problems beating their claimed numbers. In fact in my link there are 5 different M3 tests from different countries & the M3 beats it claims in all of them.

Why is it necessary to always say the magazines are biased when Audi doesn't do well? I don't think Sport Auto are biased anyway.

[Nordschleife]

posting what is in magazines is a waste of space - we all buy magazines and read them for ourselves.

It is useful when you write about your OWN experience, not what you have pulled out of a magazine. When you do this, you will realise what rubbish goes into the articles that you are quoting from.

R+C