RS4 to target BMW M5

[tailpipe]

There is an article in this week's Autocar Magazine on the new RS4. It shows the black mule we've already seen that may or may not be an RS4 prototype lapping the Nordschliefe.

It confirms what I think we can now regard as fact: the engine is an extremely exotic development of the current 4.2 litre V-8 engine as used in the S4, A6 and A8 models. THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO TURBOS - but don't worry because the naturally aspirated development they intend to put in it will punch harder than Lennox Lewis on steroids and has quite a few trick bits that really lift its game. Moreover, it revs well beyond 8,000 rpm to deliver a healthy 425 bhp. Performance is above and beyond both existing RS4 and RS6 models, with 0-100 kph achieved in under 4.9 seconds and a top speed limited to 250 kph. Apparently, quite a few kilogrammes have been shed but it still weighs in at a flabby 1600 kg. The article reports that a 6-speed manual box will be offered as standard with the option of DSG box, although the latter seems to be speculation rather than fact.

I spoke to someone at Audi about this article and can tell you that it only tells half the story. What you need to know is that the new RS4 is not merely designed to blitz the BMW M3 or Mercedes-Benz C55; it's true target is the new M5. This is the reason why they've chosen a high-revving naturally aspirated engine. It's a development of the existing 4.2 engine because this is a proven motor and therefore a much more reliable start-point for tweaking.

By contrast, the new engine in the BMW M5 has not yet been perfected. Even though the car has been announced, its release may actually be delayed because they are having all kinds of problem with reliability - there is talk of engines detonating and so on. Of course, they'll get it right, but my sources tell me that it is far from production ready as things stand.

The new RS4 will be Audi's top-of-the-line sports car until the new RS6 arrives and therefore the engineers are doing everything possible to make it absolutely fantastic - including hiring some of BMW's best engineers to complement Audi's own home.

You may remember another recent article that reported Audi believes there are better ways to deliver performance than a sheer horsepower battle. This car should prove that. Let's hope so.

[steve]

Sounds very good. I do hope the weight will be kept as low as possible. Still I'd like to see turbo's on an RS... but this NA rocket will be pretty good I guess

[7:53 RS6]

Tail, do you know any thing on its suspension?

[Benman]

Originally posted by tailpipe
Apparently, quite a few kilogrammes have been shed but it still weighs in at a flabby 1600 kg.

I wouldn't be too harsh about the target weight. If in fact it does weight in at 1600kg than that would mean it weights less than the old RS 4 (by over 100 lbs), and with the trend towards car continually weighing more and more I'd say job well done.

Ben

P.S. consider the M3 CSL weights over 3200lbs and if you added 4 wheel drive you won't be far off from 1600kg!

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by 8:29 RS6
Tail, do you know any thing on its suspension?

Revised DRC.

'Better' brakes - not holding my breath.

Only new 6 speed manual gearbox.

Now only the engine is ahead of the front axle.

Designed to be America friendly.

R+C

[Benman]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
Revised DRC.
R+C

Sounds interesting.

[Erik]

Originally posted by 8:29 RS6
Do you know anything on its suspension?

I'd like to see the "magnetic ride control" system (i.e. adjustable) that has been showed on exhibitions. Since some Chevys have it already it shouldn't be rocket science.

Anyone coming to Geneva with us?

[QuattroFun]

Sounds nice, I also have (too?) high hopes but...

First, we can all do the power-to-weight math and it more or less tells us that the above mentioned speccs will not make even the RS4 sedan version a new M5 slayer as regards straightline acceleration times - especially not in 0-160kmh (M5 less than 10s) & 0-200kmh (M5 some 14s). If the RS4 gearing is close to that in the S4 and if we optimistically suppose the weight claim is true, then other things being roughly equal (such as traction/power loss to wheels etc) the new RS4 should do 0-200kmh at somewhere around 16s - i.e. a tad below current M3 territory.

Second, I for one am sceptical about 1600kg in the real world although I surely hope I am wrong. The current S4 sedan is supposed to come in at 1660kg EU unladen (no stereo and other things probably). Not a single real world example is this light with the gas tank filled - the lowest test figure I have seen is 1730kg and mine is 1735kg. The RS6 was also well over 100kg above the claimed weight in all speccs I have seen whereas the M3 CSL truly weighs 1450-1490kg. If they put in 19" wheels, a beefier transmission, brakes and suspension and maybe also more electrical machines/electronics they have to undo 50-80kg of added weight vs the S4 just to keep it at par - changing the bonnet and front side panels to aluminium undoes only 30-35kg. So there really has to be maybe ceramic brakes (too expensive) or many other panels in lightweight materials (again, expensive) to in net terms shed 60kg on the S4.

I know, I am a pessimist and what do I know about what Audi truly plans - but number crunching at least comes some way into analysing the plausibility of all claims/hopes floating around. But, again, I hope I am proven wrong and that the Rs4 is the perfect vehicle for less than 8min Ring laps even in my hamfisted hands...

[Finnus]

I also don't see how the specs given by Tailpipe create an M-5 slayer. At an "under 4.9" 0-100kph, that's potentially less than the advertised 4.7 for the RS-6 (which I've come to believe can only be achieved in an as yet unknown perfect environment) and the 4.7 advertised for the new M-5.

Nordschliefe, what is, "Designed to be America friendly.
" ?

Finnus

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Finnus

what is, "Designed to be America friendly." ?

you tell me, but I fear for overly comfortable suspension to cope with pot-holed roads, high ground clearance, icebox aircon, 'comfortable' seats, gear ratios set for 1/4 mile times, cheap to service and simple exhaust.

R+C

[A418TQTip]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
you tell me, but I fear for overly comfortable suspension to cope with pot-holed roads, high ground clearance, icebox aircon, 'comfortable' seats, gear ratios set for 1/4 mile times, cheap to service and simple exhaust.

R+C

Yeah, right. Blame it on the US market...

Folks, ALL car companies are getting more and more on the soft side.

That's particularly true when it comes to BMW and Audi. M and S/RS cars became "status" symbols. In order to appeal to soccer moms and "badge seekers", these cars are getting soft and lacking soul. Shareholders don't give a damn. All they care about is profit.

I just wish someone would go back to basics... I'm pretty sure my next car will be an EVO MR or a WRX STi.

Edit: We didn't get the B5 RS4 in the States. Still, Quattro used to sell a suspension upgrade, right? Why? The stock suspension was overly comfortable?

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by A418TQTip
Yeah, right. Blame it on the US market...

Folks, ALL car companies are getting more and more on the soft side.

That's particularly true when it comes to BMW and Audi. M and S/RS cars became "status" symbols. In order to appeal to soccer moms and "badge seekers", these cars are getting soft and lacking soul. Shareholders don't give a damn. All they care about is profit.

I just wish someone would go back to basics... I'm pretty sure my next car will be an EVO MR or a WRX STi.

Edit: We didn't get the B5 RS4 in the States. Still, Quattro used to sell a suspension upgrade, right? Why? The stock suspension was overly comfortable?

Fortunately, for those of us who like cars, the US market is becoming less important for the world's car manufacturers.
Am I being harsh on the US, no, just realistic. Porsche is still the exception in that the US market is very important, for the others the several European markets and China are much more significant in agregate, prices are maintained and currency risk is avoided.
Why does this matter, mostly because in an automotive sense, the US is on another planet, different rules about everything, from safety, to emissions to measurement standards, different expectations about service and warranties, different driving capabilities, different returns on sales.
Almost every really interesting car from leading European manufacturers has not been imported into the US, GT3RS, M3CSL, RS4, RS2, TVR, the list goes on. These cars are good for several reasons, in part because they are not compromised by the requirements of the US market.
If you want really interesting cars hope that they are not Federalised and get an expert to bring them in through the grey market.
Your outlook on the world is entirely UScentric, do try to see beyond the borders of the 48 States and adopt a global view of what is happening in the automotive world. The soccer-mom is a US phenomenon, in the rest of the world the game is football and its played by men, you might have heard of 'the beautiful game'.
Your point about quattro offering alternative suspensions, is entirely irrelevant, their firmer setups are aimed at drivers usually resident in Germany who are able to take advantage of that country's mostly excellent roads, the standard cars have suspension which is too stiff for the US market, so there is usually a selection of suspension set ups available.
I am not knocking the US, nor am I anti-US, I am realistic about automobiles in the US and the ethos surrounding them. As a former Nevada Honor Guard officer, a descendent of a President of the Continental Congress, and the happy son, brother, uncle and main squeeze of US citizens and residents, it would be odd if I were knocking the US, even though it is often very difficult to persuade my European and Antipodean friends and relations that the country has not taken on the mantle of the 'Evil Empire'.
R+C

[Artur Costa]

About the M5 engine having realiability problems is not what you probably are thinking!
The current 5L 507BHP engine has no problems!
The problems as in the engines that produce 30nm more and nearly 550bhp!
I lead to belive that in early 2007 there will be new specs for the M5 and that will be the 5L engine puxed to the max... 550bhp? I think so!

About the RS4 I dont believe it will ever get close to the M5 if they have lesse power! Remeber the quattro is not the way to but horsepower on the ground but only torque!You can see that in the RS6 Vs E39 M5... when the power comes to judgment the M5 is faster and has less 50bhp...

Still I would prefer to onw a manual RS4 with 425bhp than a SMG M5.... but I will get used to the idea of no clutch pedal

[A418TQTip]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
Fortunately, for those of us who like cars, the US market is becoming less important for the world's car manufacturers.
Am I being harsh on the US, no, just realistic. Porsche is still the exception in that the US market is very important, for the others the several European markets and China are much more significant in agregate, prices are maintained and currency risk is avoided.
Why does this matter, mostly because in an automotive sense, the US is on another planet, different rules about everything, from safety, to emissions to measurement standards, different expectations about service and warranties, different driving capabilities, different returns on sales.
Almost every really interesting car from leading European manufacturers has not been imported into the US, GT3RS, M3CSL, RS4, RS2, TVR, the list goes on. These cars are good for several reasons, in part because they are not compromised by the requirements of the US market.
If you want really interesting cars hope that they are not Federalised and get an expert to bring them in through the grey market.
Your outlook on the world is entirely UScentric, do try to see beyond the borders of the 48 States and adopt a global view of what is happening in the automotive world. The soccer-mom is a US phenomenon, in the rest of the world the game is football and its played by men, you might have heard of 'the beautiful game'.
Your point about quattro offering alternative suspensions, is entirely irrelevant, their firmer setups are aimed at drivers usually resident in Germany who are able to take advantage of that country's mostly excellent roads, the standard cars have suspension which is too stiff for the US market, so there is usually a selection of suspension set ups available.
I am not knocking the US, nor am I anti-US, I am realistic about automobiles in the US and the ethos surrounding them. As a former Nevada Honor Guard officer, a descendent of a President of the Continental Congress, and the happy son, brother, uncle and main squeeze of US citizens and residents, it would be odd if I were knocking the US, even though it is often very difficult to persuade my European and Antipodean friends and relations that the country has not taken on the mantle of the 'Evil Empire'.
R+C

See, first you say the upcoming RS4 is designed to be "US friendly". Now you're saying the US market is becoming less important...

Funny you should mention Porsche. The 997 is more back to basics compared to its predecessor and guess what? It will be sold here... Go figure...

Let's just agree to disagree.

[7:53 RS6]

__________________________________________________ __

Originally posted by Artur Costa

!You can see that in the RS6 Vs E39 M5... when the power comes to judgment the M5 is faster and has less 50bhp...

__________________________________________________ __

Well, it could have someting to do whit the RS6 and it having a atomatic transmission. And in my experience its onley from say some wher around 400m the E39 is pulling.

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by A418TQTip
See, first you say the upcoming RS4 is designed to be "US friendly". Now you're saying the US market is becoming less important...

Funny you should mention Porsche. The 997 is more back to basics compared to its predecessor and guess what? It will be sold here... Go figure...

Let's just agree to disagree.

Go drive a 993, a 996 and a 997 Porsche, the latter with PASM, then tell me its back to basics. Quoting (ignorant) journalists and marketing material doesn't cut it. Any 'basics' are simulated, it is an excellent car, but it isn't about basics and I'd rather have a 997 than a 996, but you know you can feel what the car is actually doing far better in a 993 than either the 996 or 997.

There is no conflict, the new RS4 is compromised by being designed for the US market as well as the ROW, and fortunately the US market is becoming less important, so that in the future we might not have cars which fall between two stools, as the present S4 does, for example.

R+C

[A418TQTip]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
Go drive a 993, a 996 and a 997 Porsche, the latter with PASM, then tell me its back to basics. Quoting (ignorant) journalists and marketing material doesn't cut it. Any 'basics' are simulated, it is an excellent car, but it isn't about basics and I'd rather have a 997 than a 996, but you know you can feel what the car is actually doing far better in a 993 than either the 996 or 997.

There is no conflict, the new RS4 is compromised by being designed for the US market as well as the ROW, and fortunately the US market is becoming less important, so that in the future we might not have cars which fall between two stools, as the present S4 does, for example.

R+C

I have driven 993s and 996s. No doubt the 996 is soft compared to its predecessor. Now, is that due to the US market? I don't think so...

I still have to go drive drive a 997, but the new Carrera S lapping the ring 20s faster than the 996 means something to me.

Sorry, but I fail to see how basics are "simulated" in Sport mode, when most of the "defense mechanisms" become far less intrusive...

I never disputed the fact that new generations are getting more and more isolated - see my first post. All I said is that blaming it on the US market is BS. After all, poseurs are everywhere...

[QuattroFun]

The current S4 is in many ways too compromised. However, none of the 6000+ RS4's may have been sold to the US, but it was - whilst a fine car - also very compromised in its basic design and intent (Avant, no real weight saving intended and packed with luxury items) and the RS6 was not exactly a car for purists either although only a 1000 or so of the 8000 produced went to the US.

Being based on the S4/S4 Avant, the new RS4 with perhaps 6000-10000 total sales target is more likely in spirit to be closer to the M3/M5 than the much more focused, expensive and in sales targets more limited M3 CSL - hopefully with some weight savings through lighterweight materials and designs, though.

What possible point would there with an excessively stripped EUR85K CSL Avant with no air con and radio in the first place? A sparetime track car for the family father?