Brake upgrade: Should I spend $ or $$$...or $0?

[7:53 RS6]

PS: ESP should not be trusted to 100%.

Many times the ESP dont have a chance to react if for ex. to much G forces in wet, damp contitions, oil e.t.c.


"learn by Doing"

[CarbonFibre]

I stopped reading the posts but it seems that it's time to get a custom made front mount intercooler and then get cooling ducts put in the sides where the intercoolers were. This would cool your big brake kit that you don't have yet .

[Nordschleife]

8:50 RS4

I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations.

Experienced drivers have a separate over-ride switch fitted to fully disable it.

The conditions you describe are transient, unfortunately for you, you were not able to retain control of the car, the designers of the ESP system expect the car to be driven within a certain handling envelope. Perhaps a little training would help you to maintain control in these situations.

Drivers who favour extreme and prolonged manoeuvers on a track often fall foul of ESP when they first encounter it. If you plan every corner, and set the car up for the corner, you will find that the ESP rarely cuts in, in fact you can use the ESP like a driving instructor, if it cuts in, you were on the wrong line or were not smooth enough in your handling of the car.

It is very noticable that when you are on the track with a world class driver, there is very little wheel movement, all the inputs are smooth and quite slow, yet the car is travelling mammothly faster than those where the driver is sawing away at the wheel and the ESP is going off all the time.

I hope you can follow what I am saying here.

R+C

[Erik]

As far as I know from the A4 1.8T that I've driven on various Audi quattro Driving experiences they have a seperate switch to control the ESP and ABS. I guess the just short circuit it.

If you drive your normal Audi and switch ESP to off, ESP will be on the millisecond you push the brakes.

[7:53 RS6]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
8:50 RS4

I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP willcome back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations.

[

So not tru, I have my self correkted things up when driving whit out ESP(controlled powerdrifting not spun out of track)Ive been to many track events and seen pepole spinn out of track,whit s4, rs4, m3, etc this should never hapend if it was like you say.
If The case you say whit the ESP not being able to disconekt where tru i would never bought the car im sitting in period!. (As said erlier a im not an driving instuctor, Not getinging paid to drive cars. )Come on how many guys can hold the perfect line and breaking points around a track like Green Hell?.

About my practic, i will be more than happy to chace you around Nurburgring the 7 of April whit my stock rs6!!!

Theori is one thing practik an other
"learn by doing"

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by 8:50 RS4
[

So not tru, I have my self correkted things up when driving whit out ESP(controlled powerdrifting not spun out of track)Ive been to many track events and seen pepole spinn out of track,whit s4, rs4, m3, etc this should never hapend if it was like you say.
If The case you say whit the ESP not being able to disconekt where tru i would never bought the car im sitting in period!. (As said erlier a im not an driving instuctor, Not getinging paid to drive cars. )Come on how many guys can hold the perfect line and breaking points around a track like Green Hell?.

About my practic, i will be more than happy to chace you around Nurburgring the 7 of April whit my stock rs6!!!

Theori is one thing practik an other
"learn by doing"

Having ESP does not mean that the car will not spin, if you drive with sufficient commitment, you can spin the car with the ESP on, if you turn it off, you can, as you notice, spin the car, the fact that the spin continues does not mean that ESP does not engage, it means that the spin was beyond ESP to control.

OK, are you with me so far, well bear with me a little more - look at Eric's post above,
Question: why do you think Audi fit separate switches to switch of ESP and/or ABS?
Answer: Because the ESP will come back on, even if it is sswitched off under certain circumstances, one of which is braking , others include instability.


I do not know why you bought the car you are sitting in, as you say you are not a driving instructor, and are quite obviously not a very experienced driver - you have NOT noticed how the control and safety systems in your car work.

In order to completely switch off the ESP on the RS4 you have to have a separate switch - OK?

R+C

[JP4]

Originally posted by Nordschleife

Experienced drivers have a separate over-ride switch fitted to fully disable it.

The conditions you describe are transient, unfortunately for you, you were not able to retain control of the car, the designers of the ESP system expect the car to be driven within a certain handling envelope. Perhaps a little training would help you to maintain control in these situations.

Drivers who favour extreme and prolonged manoeuvers on a track often fall foul of ESP when they first encounter it. If you plan every corner, and set the car up for the corner, you will find that the ESP rarely cuts in, in fact you can use the ESP like a driving instructor, if it cuts in, you were on the wrong line or were not smooth enough in your handling of the car.

It is very noticable that when you are on the track with a world class driver, there is very little wheel movement, all the inputs are smooth and quite slow, yet the car is travelling mammothly faster than those where the driver is sawing away at the wheel and the ESP is going off all the time.

I hope you can follow what I am saying here.

Indeed I can follow what you are saying here and I'm in agreement with your comments. Especially those relating to the smooth slow steering inputs. And YES YES YES...I could and WILL benefit from further instruction in these situations.

JP4

[7:53 RS6]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nordschleife
[B]Having ESP does not mean that the car will not spin, if you drive with sufficient commitment, you can spin the car with the ESP on, if you turn it off, you can, as you notice, spin the car, the fact that the spin continues does not mean that ESP does not engage, it means that the spin was beyond ESP to control.

Dont lose the thread,Mr you said erlier that=I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations.
It has never came back when swiched off in 3 rs4 i owned, never came back on my rs6. So you meen all off this time when esp whas off in my cars over years it meens that ESP was out off control as you say.....come on its allmost the same as off or isent it?? Whit ESP on you cant powerslide the car (well some time it wont react and the car could slide but rearly) But turn it off,I right it once more TURN IT OFF and you can easy slide the car on DRY Tarmac(Guess you never done this cause you need to bild up pretty much speed to let it drift on dry tarmac(overall god grip in rs6). If you tried we would not have this discusion)You should insted try this at snow or gravel that way you nerly need no speed at all,(sems to suit you better) buy still you can throw the car in any directions you like whit full 4w drift..and its fun to. Finnaly try to Sum this up, you control the car the way you want ESP OFF. Or the car controls you ESP ON. Any way this is in my WORLD and many others . Of course we are not Proffesionals(geting paid driving cars on track,) nor are we Audi Experienced test driver as you self?
Hope to see you down att Green hell 7april, "Learn by doing"
By the way Walter Röhrl drives the new Carrera GT 10seconds faster round Nurburgring whit out ESP, i guess the GT ESP system is more advanced then ouer rs6.

[Nordschleife]

8:50 RS4

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


Because you apparently can't notice when the ESP has come on, it doesn't mean it hasn't come on.


Instead of bringing your car to the Ring, why not invest in some Audi Driving Courses, then you will be better able to enjoy your cars, and might notice what they are doing.

Every time you say the ESP does not come back on, you show how little experience you have.

R+C

[Erik]

Guess who?



VW Transporter chasing an english RS4. This VW has a Porsche engine installed...
Note the brake lights are on the VW.

[7:53 RS6]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nordschleife
[B]8:50 RS4

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


Because you apparently can't notice when the ESP has come on, it doesn't mean it hasn't come on.

Well its pretty easy to feel when its on. Thats the onley reson why I put it of in the first place. You probabley not building up your speed so its not a problem for you. If the RS4/6 ESP was programed to alow more agresiv driving before cuting in I may wont turn it of.
Nortschlife you cant run away from this one# =I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations. Read my last post and try the Snow or gravel.

I Quote
# I can assure you that on the RS4, the ESP will come back on when you have switched it off in extreme situations# No way after trying what said in my last post!!

Why do you think the csl have a track mode esp that alows more befor cuting in, think about it. Even that system interferc to much i have herd. A frind of my have just got a new one and he is coming down from Berli to the ring the 7 april damn I be lucky to try it.

[andyp]

My comments on the brakes:

- They work well at the track but experience heavy wear of front pads
- after track use Brakes squeeked at 5-0 mph, Rotors showed score marks, pads had hairline cracks between piston pressure points
- after a 2-3K miles, squeek went away and rotors even smoothed somewhat. Pagid commented on photos of pads, stating that hairline cracks are normal and not of concern
- My next track event is at the end of this month and I have changed the fluid to Motul 600 and will fit Pagid recommended track pads.

Two comments on thread above:

1. Pads are very easy to change and this can easily be accomplished trackside - I recommend a lightweight hydraulic jack, a cordless impact wrench (like the Craftsmen Professional) and a torque wrench - if anyone knows the correct torque for the lugs, please let me know. in the meantime, I'm using 90 ft/lb

2. If you are changing the brakes, an alternative to Movitt might be Alcon who supplied the Champion racing team.

Andy

[eph94]

Originally posted by andyp
after track use Brakes squeeked at 5-0 mph

Funny, for me, my brakes were squeaking at 5-0 mph BEFORE I took the car on the track and by the end of the day the 5-0 mph squeak was gone. I did get the same scoring of the rotors and my brakes actually felt gritty for a day or so afterwards. I had the dealer check them out and the techs said there was nothing wrong.

I'm getting the brake fluid changed next week at my local tuner and I'm going get their opinion on the brakes while I am there. I am considering replacing the brake lines, pads, and going to a higher-boiling point fluid. Replacing the front brakes with Mov'its is a little too costly for my blood at the moment. The recommended 370x35mm kit costs 4850 Euros. If you have 19" wheels, then you can get the 380x32mm kit for 5250 Euros. Mov'it's recommened rear brake 342x28 mm kit runs 3250 Euros. The weak dollar doesn't help at all.

For you other folk who have tracked the RS6, doesn't it feel HEAVY? I loved it on the straights, where I was able to create some space, but each turn was an epic battle. I felt like the Champion RS6 guys plugging up the field in the turns. I'm almost hoping for rain one of these track days to even things up a bit, except those speedly little WRXs and EVOs will still be lighter than me!!

[JAXRS6]

FYI I have seen my ESP light flash when I disengage it & do maneuvers bordering on extreme. I suspect the flashing (vs. light being on constantly when ESP is turned off) means that ESP sometimes works even when it is turned off. Why else would it flash?

[JAXRS6]

Originally posted by andyp
if anyone knows the correct torque for the lugs, please let me know. in the meantime, I'm using 90 ft/lb

90 is correct. I think I read it in the owner's manual when changing a flat tire to the deflated spare (US) a couple of nights ago.

BTW thanks for your 1st hand story re brakes at track. Informative & also encouraging, in that I don't feel pressured now to do major upgrade for a single track event at Sebring.

[AlanN]

Hmmm.
Squealing tryes and sideways car attitudes on a race track = SLOWER LAP TIMES >.<
There is a world of difference between a gentle drift induced by being just about on the limits of available grip and hooning a car into a corner waggling it's ar5e around (easily done by using Nordy's recommended "Finnish Flick" manouver), fine for rallying where you don't get a chance to practise the corner but not for the race track

Two week's ago I did one of Audi's courses here in the UK (the third one I've done) and the instructors, who were all guys from Audi headquarters as this was the first of a three-year run of these in the UK, were indeed using ESP to illustrate "correct" racing lines and technique.

Now I have experienced this before (on an BMW M-Power course) and IMHO it works extremely well as long as you know what is causing the systems to cut in, i.e. what you are doing wrong.
Using this technique I have managed to get very close comparitive times with ESP both on and off, ok I can always go that bit quicker with it off but if you really concentrate you would surprise yourself in as much as if you get it right with the systems on and they don't actually intervene, one can still post some VERY respectable times.
I know, I've done it.

I can also back up what has been said about ESP re-activating" itself, this IS THE CASE,
On the day in question we were driving RS6's, S4's and TTDSG's, and a part of the day was demonstrating what EXACTLY happens in very extreme situations both with systems on and off.

As has been pointed out, the systems WILL re-activate in an extreme situation but cannot normally do too much about it, other than prevent an even worse spin.
This was adequately demonstrated to me when I was coached to induce a 130+mph spin with ESP "off", and then did the same thing in the car (an RS6 Avant) with a separate, "ESP-is-off-and-will-stay-off" switch.
Whilst I managed to control the car ok the second time, I did not pull up in anything like the time as when the system kicked back in.

And I couldn't "feel" it doing anything and I think I'm failry experienced when it comes to spinning cars

[Nordschleife]

When are you bringing the Ultima over to the Nuerburgring?
Hopefully, I'll have my hands on a Gallardo by then

R+C

[Erik]

Originally posted by AlanN
I can also back up what has been said about ESP re-activating" itself, this IS THE CASE

That's even the case in Porsches. When you brakes the ESP goes back into action.

Also what has been said about ESP being use as a guide it correct.

I did the M3 driver's training on the GP-circuit (Nürburgring) last year and after a few laps I discovered that the ESP light was on out of many corners. I was too busy driving (basically high speed driving with 5-6 cars in a line with only a few meters in between) and the sunlight prohibited me from seeing the flashing light.
When I focused on not letting the ESP flash the car behaved much better, and my speed out of the corner increased. It would not cut the power and also the line became better so it felt like the driving improved a lot. The fact that the ESP would not set off would also improve braking performance when it is really needed - since the brakes are applied on/off all the time with ESP on and aggressive driving.

In any case it was a lot of fun!

I leave on wednesday morning in an RS6 Avant for Nordschleife, staying all weekend. Hopefully the pagids will arrive on time...
Time will tell if we're spending the time driving or waiting at Ring Racing fixing the brakes... :eye:

Everybody's welcome! pm me for my mobile.