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Thread: C5 RS6 timing chain - number of links

  1. #1
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    C5 RS6 timing chain - number of links

    C5 RS6 timing belt. We got the car with -8 and -13 timing in block 093.
    Finally got around doing the timing belt service. But now struggling to identify the correct chain link numbers.
    Too many photos NOT really showing what I think I am seeing.
    First: on the RS6 (like other Audi V6) is bank 1 right side (passenger side)?
    Second: is the RS6 cam/sprocket chain situation the SAME as 2.7T?

    If so: I see bank 2 (driver side, left bank) with the valley (roller pin) at the timing marks on the cam. Counting the pins/rollers INCLUDING the ones on the cam mark (square), what is the number of rollers?
    If so: I see bank 1 (passenger side, right bank) to have the cam marks on the teeth of the sprockets. Including the rollers before and after the "mark teeth", what is the number?

    I always liked this schematic, but "banks" are reversed compared to what I think I see on our RS6:
    https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.aud...cdd495a6c6.gif


    Cam mark 'teeth'/'valley' photos 2.7T bank 2: mark on teeth
    https://www.audiworld.com/forums/att...s-left_cam.jpg

    Cam mark 'teeth/valley' photos 2.7T bank 1: mark on valley (or one valley, one almost valley)
    https://www.audiworld.com/forums/att...right_cam1.jpg

  2. #2
    Registered User Bigglezworth's Avatar
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    Left is drivers side and right passenger. They are DIFFERENT requirements for setting on the BCY engines vs. the smaller 2.7 models. Scrap any refernece to 2.7 before you make your life more difficult.

    LEFT
    The distance between both -arrows- or colored markings consists of 15 rollers of the drive chain.

    RIGHT
    The distance between both -arrows- or colored markings consists of 16 rollers of the drive chain.

    PM me with your email and I will send you the instruction manuals for both heads if you would like.
    '02 S6 Avant Silver - Pokey | Carbon Black/Ebony RS6 w/ stuff - darn quick | '03 Daytona Grey/Ebony RS6 w/ more stuff - quicker yet | '91 NSX CDN issue with 6spd & BBSC - quicker yet and then some | '87 Buick GNX OEM clone w/ lots of stuff - quickest hands down

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    Registered User Aronis's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Left Side.pdf 
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    get the correct manual LOL

    Mike
    '18 BMW M5, '19 Porsche Boxster GTS
    (prior '94 325is, '97 M3, '00 A6 4.2,'03 RS6,'08 A4 Cab,'13 A8L,'15 Q7,'16 BMW M2,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigglezworth View Post
    Left is drivers side and right passenger. They are DIFFERENT requirements for setting on the BCY engines vs. the smaller 2.7 models. Scrap any refernece to 2.7 before you make your life more difficult.

    LEFT
    The distance between both -arrows- or colored markings consists of 15 rollers of the drive chain.

    RIGHT
    The distance between both -arrows- or colored markings consists of 16 rollers of the drive chain.

    PM me with your email and I will send you the instruction manuals for both heads if you would like.
    Thank you. I stopped trying to make sense with the flood of 2.7T search hits and no (really clear, at least for me) RS6 specific description.

    PM sent.

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    Thanks for the schematics. Not a big fan of the Bentley way of showing it (IMO). I marked them up to see if my interpretation is correct:

    Left:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/yxJu52RB9X2UZ8092
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RS6 cam timing chain left side txt.jpg 
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    Right:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/0Dz0OxTY8zk4EvpJ2
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RS6 cam timing chain right side txt.jpg 
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    It's been a few months since I messed with mine, but if I recall correctly, block 93 is affected by the position of the cam sprockets on the cams. When you change the TB, if you don't get the cam sprockets lined up perfectly with the crank at TDC, then you get a variance in the block 93 values. That said, I thinks it's almost impossible to get them exactly 0 because of the slight flex in the timing belt. Even using the cam and crank lock tools, the belt will almost always shift things a bit when you release everything. I know I went back a few times to reset the cam sprockets until I was comfortable that they were positioned correctly.

    This thread has some good info: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ition-question

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggPDX View Post
    block 93 is affected by the position of the cam sprockets on the cams.
    Block 93 is effected by both, the timing belt/cam sprocket and the timing chain links. There seems to be no 'real' data/information available, but my assumption is that it measures the position of the intake cam (with the cam sensor) and the crank (with the engine speed sensor "crank sensor"). There is no information out there what the output means (a dimensionless number without reference), since it is NOT degrees.

    With only 2 sensors, there is unfortunately no telling what is causing the deviation. It is even theoretically possible to have totally wrong timing and still show zero in block 93 (compensating a wrong number of timing chain links (relative 'timing' of intake valves to exhaust valves) with a wrong position of the cam sprockets (naturally, the cam marks won't align, and the cam lock bar would be off; but possible).

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtraudt View Post
    Block 93 is effected by both, the timing belt/cam sprocket and the timing chain links. There seems to be no 'real' data/information available, but my assumption is that it measures the position of the intake cam (with the cam sensor) and the crank (with the engine speed sensor "crank sensor"). There is no information out there what the output means (a dimensionless number without reference), since it is NOT degrees.

    With only 2 sensors, there is unfortunately no telling what is causing the deviation. It is even theoretically possible to have totally wrong timing and still show zero in block 93 (compensating a wrong number of timing chain links (relative 'timing' of intake valves to exhaust valves) with a wrong position of the cam sprockets (naturally, the cam marks won't align, and the cam lock bar would be off; but possible).
    yeah, that's true, and I guess the tensioner itself could mess up the numbers if it's failing or stuck. In my case, I put in new tensioner pads and TB, and tried really hard to get the cams set correctly, but still ended up with -4 in one of the blocks. Not a big deal, but annoying. Next time the engine comes out, I'll go through and try to get them dialed-in perfect

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    Registered User Bigglezworth's Avatar
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    I've said this before a couple of times in other posts regarding TB service, but I find it extremely successful to loosen off the cam sprokets each time I do a TB in order to overcome any variances. This lets you rotate the sprockets and fine tune things. Once you set the tensioner, and then let release the piston to tension up the idler, you are as taught and in as good alignment as you can get. You can then torque down the sprockets and remove your cam bar and crank pin.
    '02 S6 Avant Silver - Pokey | Carbon Black/Ebony RS6 w/ stuff - darn quick | '03 Daytona Grey/Ebony RS6 w/ more stuff - quicker yet | '91 NSX CDN issue with 6spd & BBSC - quicker yet and then some | '87 Buick GNX OEM clone w/ lots of stuff - quickest hands down

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigglezworth View Post
    I've said this before a couple of times in other posts regarding TB service, but I find it extremely successful to loosen off the cam sprokets each time I do a TB in order to overcome any variances. This lets you rotate the sprockets and fine tune things. Once you set the tensioner, and then let release the piston to tension up the idler, you are as taught and in as good alignment as you can get. You can then torque down the sprockets and remove your cam bar and crank pin.
    That is what the TB instructions call for if timing needs to be corrected/changed. If block 93 (and timing marks/TDC/lock bar) are good: I just mark the old belt and transpose markings to the new belt.

    Regarding crank lock pin: I found it impossible to get the crank lock pin in (on the RS6 in particular, but even on 2.7T no fun). Any good tips that make it worth the effort to get that last bit of slop out that the harmonic balancer (crank pulley; bolt holes play) has (amounting min/max to about 1/2 a tooth)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtraudt View Post
    Regarding crank lock pin: I found it impossible to get the crank lock pin in (on the RS6 in particular, but even on 2.7T no fun). Any good tips that make it worth the effort to get that last bit of slop out that the harmonic balancer (crank pulley; bolt holes play) has (amounting min/max to about 1/2 a tooth)?
    What kind of trouble were you having? When I did my TB, the engine was out, so access was not an issue. Maybe you need to drop the lower intercooler hose on that side to get to the pin-hole. Someone who has done the TB with the engine installed might be able to help answer that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggPDX View Post
    What kind of trouble were you having? When I did my TB, the engine was out, so access was not an issue. Maybe you need to drop the lower intercooler hose on that side to get to the pin-hole. Someone who has done the TB with the engine installed might be able to help answer that.
    Can't even SEE the darn thing, let alone take VSS out and put pin in. Haven't found that the slight play of the crank pulley (leading to some in accuracy of the TDC timing mark) is a real issue. But then gain: certainly would put the pin in if it can be done without removing half the engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtraudt View Post
    Can't even SEE the darn thing, let alone take VSS out and put pin in. Haven't found that the slight play of the crank pulley (leading to some in accuracy of the TDC timing mark) is a real issue. But then gain: certainly would put the pin in if it can be done without removing half the engine.
    The pin-hole on the RS6 is not the VSS hole, it's on the block kinda behind the drivers side motor mount. It has a hex-drive plug in the hole and it's hard to see, but if you feel around up there, you can find it and get a hex-socket in it. The lock pin actually fits into a hole on the crank, so it should thread in pretty far and lock positively when it's lined up right.

    I think this pic shows it: http://i39.tinypic.com/2v82tdk.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggPDX View Post
    The pin-hole on the RS6 is not the VSS hole, it's on the block kinda behind the drivers side motor mount. It has a hex-drive plug in the hole and it's hard to see, but if you feel around up there, you can find it and get a hex-socket in it. The lock pin actually fits into a hole on the crank, so it should thread in pretty far and lock positively when it's lined up right.

    I think this pic shows it: http://i39.tinypic.com/2v82tdk.jpg
    Is the RS6 crank lock pin different from the one used for the 2.7T and 1.8T?

    I will be 'down there' today again and take a look for future reference

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtraudt View Post
    Is the RS6 crank lock pin different from the one used for the 2.7T and 1.8T?

    I will be 'down there' today again and take a look for future reference
    I think it's specific to the V8, this is the one I used: https://www.amazon.com/3242-Audi-Cra.../dp/B00I2IF79Q

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggPDX View Post
    I think it's specific to the V8, this is the one I used: https://www.amazon.com/3242-Audi-Cra.../dp/B00I2IF79Q
    Its the same (see the 'fit' in the listing).

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