definitive tire, wheel, and offset thread

[Other_Erik]

Erik I pulled the trigger on the set of slicers described above. I understand that I will need 4x57.1->66.56mm hub bore adapters, 5x112 bolt pattern however not clear on the 4x20mm 5x112 bolt pattern spacers they seem to have spacers for both the 57.1 & 66.5 hub bore wheels since I am adapting to 66.56 I suspect I need the first ones listed below

20mm Hubcentric Wheel Spacer Kit Fit Audi A5/S5 2009-2012 Bolt Pattern: 5x112 Center Bore: 66.5 Thread Type...


20mm 5x112 Hubcentric Wheel Spacers for Audi A4 A3 A6 VW Jetta Golf GTI (57.1 Bore)


However not sure, please confirm so I can idiot proof my plan before ordering. Thanks again for your knowledge and help on this topic!

Hopefully I'm not too late to help.

You _can_ use either of those spacers. It's all a question of how you sandwich the stack. I would recommend you go this way:

Hub-->Adapter-->Spacer-->Wheel
In which case you would want the 57.1->66.56mm adapter and the 66.56mm spacer

If you've already ordered everything and picked up the 57.1mm spacer, you'll need to sandwich them like so:

Hub-->Spacer-->Adapter-->Wheel
I only say that I don't recommend this because it means putting your wheel lugs through the wheel and the adapter into the spacer, and I know what a pain in the ass it is to mount wheels by hand without a magic stick...

Erik

[Other_Erik]

It's a long thread,just throwing out my latest tire dilemma: Input is welcomed.
Despite my initial excitement on the new RE11's (275/30-19), and fantastic traction, if not nearly amazing, another change seems needed. Not thrilled with flat spotting when parked. It's far worse than the S04's. Tried various tire pressures.
-- Thinking of switching back to Michelin.
But what size and load index, if that matters in the real world in terms of ride quality? Intended use is just summer and prefer the 30 series handling and slightly wider contact than 35's offer.
Anyone here with PSS's in 275/30? Really curious how the ride quality, but most importantly it's resistance to flat spotting is. Tire kid at America's Tire said they wouldn't sell this size due to low load index. Not worried....the 96XL rating should be fine, and is what the RE11's are.
But the 35's have a much higher load rating. Wondering if it makes a noticeable difference, or in helping to keep the tire round-- in the Michelin brand? Waiting 2-7 miles for tires (RE11's or S04's) to warm up, round out, smooth out, is driving me batty on the 16 mile daily commute. And it's not good on the suspension....
Considering (19"):
265/35 (easy fit, higher load, reduced contact patch)
275/35 (high load, tight fit, may need to raise front end)
275/30 ("preferred") slightly under OD helps clearance, increases WHP, widest tire.
Michelin seems like a "big" tire based on my AS3's. Bigger than Bridgestone for a given size? May be a factor?
Running OE wheels and Michelin AS3's until the dilemma is sorted. Rides like butter and handles OK for the KW3's.
What to do? Anything else I should consider?

No matter which direction you go, make sure your tires have a load index rating of 99 or higher. One of the big reasons you'll get flat spots is due to the load on those tires that aren't rated for it. Another thing to consider is if you curb your wheels (yeah, yeah, I know, we're all expert drivers here, only our wives/valet/etc have ever rashed the wheels), the softer ply of the tires that have a lower rating will be more likely to gash the sidewall at the seat bead, ruining your tire.

I understand that with a higher load rating, the ride is a bit harsher. If that's a major concern, I don't recommend upsizing your wheels. On 19's, your exact (within 0.25%) match tire options are:
255/35/19
295/30/19
Either of which has roughly the same height of sidewall (~3.5") compared to the roughly 4" of sidewall that you'll want on an 18" rim. That half-inch may not sound like much difference, but in ride quality terms, it makes a noticeable difference.

You're well on your way to really "getting" what is important - I see you talking about contact patch. Yes, the more contact you're making with the road, the better. That said, your stock tires make contact at 10" wide by anywhere from 4-6 inches long patches. Going in the median of that, that means ~50in^2 per tire contact. Going with wider tires adds very little to that patch (this isn't some old Honda, where you're going from 145-wide to 225-wide, net gain 50%) - talking about going from a 255-wide to a 275-wide is a net gain of ~8%, and softer ply means you'll make a bit more contact length to the tune of maybe a percentage or two. Call it a 10% gain in dry, straight-line contact. Having talked with folks who've done big builds on their vehicles, stock tires have done them right up to 550whp. They can floor it and get a chirp as the Quattro kicks in and mangles their Torsen diff. If you're making anywhere near stock power, you're probably not going to need that additional contact patch. Where this all changes is if you're trying to get better cornering, wet, or snow traction.

For cornering traction, brother, you are in the wrong vehicle. 4400lb curb weight and a tendency towards body roll are not your friend. Anyway, you'll do more for yourself swapping in the Hotchkis sway bars than any amount of wider tires could do for you. You could also look into spring limiters for a stronger damping at the extremes of suspension travel. I'm not an expert by any means, but I play one on TV...

For wet and/or snow traction, it's all about the tire itself. Wet traction, you want a traction pattern that does 2 things - maximize the contact patch with the road, and minimize the amount of water allowed under the tire (usually, via ducting out existing water along chevron-shaped grooves that give the water a path of least resistance pointing outward). Snow traction is a whole 'nother beast, and my only recommendation here is Blizzaks for everyday, and chains/studs if you're talking deep snow with possibility of ice. The Blizzaks will wear faster than your typical passenger tire (24k mile rating compared to 40k+), but on an AWD system like we have, it's like a mountain goat compared to rolling around on bowling balls in very slick conditions.

I've gone and gotten all wordy again. Let me know if this helped/hurt/didn't make a difference. If you've got any questions, I'm here more than I probably should be, but it never hurts to PM me and say "Hey, I posted a question in the tire/wheel offset thread, could you take a look?"

Thanks
O_E

[nistah]

Hopefully I'm not too late to help.

You _can_ use either of those spacers. It's all a question of how you sandwich the stack. I would recommend you go this way:

Hub-->Adapter-->Spacer-->Wheel
In which case you would want the 57.1->66.56mm adapter and the 66.56mm spacer

If you've already ordered everything and picked up the 57.1mm spacer, you'll need to sandwich them like so:

Hub-->Spacer-->Adapter-->Wheel
I only say that I don't recommend this because it means putting your wheel lugs through the wheel and the adapter into the spacer, and I know what a pain in the ass it is to mount wheels by hand without a magic stick...

Erik

THanks! Yeah I followed Corbett's advice and got the 57.1 Hub Centric Wheel Spacers W/ 14x1.5 Lug Bolts to match up to the 57.1->66.56mm adapter. I am having a tire shop handle the mounting so hopefully it will not make much of a difference.

[nistah]

On 19's, your exact (within 0.25%) match tire options are:
255/35/19
295/30/19

OK so I am looking at 255/35/19 which I suspect was the OE tire size. Do the 295's provide any tangible benefits over the 255's? Because the 295's seem to cost way more than the 255's…. Also on tire choice… I know folks swear by the Michelin PSS line. So I am looking into those. Any other recommendations will be helpful. Cheers

[Other_Erik]

OK so I am looking at 255/35/19 which I suspect was the OE tire size. Do the 295's provide any tangible benefits over the 255's? Because the 295's seem to cost way more than the 255's…. Also on tire choice… I know folks swear by the Michelin PSS line. So I am looking into those. Any other recommendations will be helpful. Cheers

Can't recommend a brand since I've only had the one set of summer tires so far. I can say I'm ordering PSS in 255/40-18 for my RS6 in Michelin PSS. Best bang for the buck from what I've heard.

As far as 255/35/19 vs 295/30/19 - the only tangible benefit is going to be if you're making ridiculous high HP/TQ numbers, more meat on the road (~15% more contact patch) - the folks who've done 550+WHP/High 500's lb/ft TQ have attested that the standard size 255 fronts are no problem, and some have gone to 275's in the rear (messing with revs/mile calculations, but that's their problem, not mine).

If you're making anywhere near stock power levels, no tangible benefit.

TL;DR: 255/35/19 PSS's will be your friend. Don't bother looking anywhere else. Oh, and make sure you get the XL (eXtra Load) rating - a little harsher ride, but you won't get flat-spotting as easily.

[Avus-RS6]

275 30 19 Nitto NT-05 tires on 19 x 9.5 et 26 fits great, looks stellar. HRE M40 rims. Haven't cornered hard yet, bolted them on last night then took the wife out to dinner (no hard driving). Car is fairly low, on PSS9's, but not dumped. Will report on any rubbing once I put it through the paces. Worse case, I'll have to roll the fronts a hair which I'm not too worried about, she's not a garage queen.

[bmlee007]

OK so I am looking at 255/35/19 which I suspect was the OE tire size. Do the 295's provide any tangible benefits over the 255's? Because the 295's seem to cost way more than the 255's…. Also on tire choice… I know folks swear by the Michelin PSS line. So I am looking into those. Any other recommendations will be helpful. Cheers

I'm a recent convert to PSS from Continental. I've driven about 500 miles since putting them on two weeks ago. Contis were 255/40/18 and PSS are 255/35/19, ride quality is about the same even with the shorter sidewall. Less noise on most roads around my place, asphalt or concrete. It sat for 4 days at the airport and had no issues with flat-spotting in 80+ degree weather. My last 3 sets of tires on various cars were Contis, but I'm already feeling like the switch to Michelin was worth the extra $20 on each corner.

[nistah]

I got the 19" peelers installed on my beast yesterday. Like the way they look & how they fill the wheel well area. Special thanks to Other Erik without whom this would not have been possible.I do have a follow up question: the spacer kit I bought came with 14x1.5 Lug Bolts installer suggested that these lugs were a tad too short, said I was only gripping 6 threads and that I needed 8 threads grip. Does anyone know where I can find the next longer sized lugs bolts? are they 3.5 inch lugs? also is there any danger in running these shorter lugs? Installer said no, not for the time being but to replace within a month. Looking for a second opinion. Cheers!
http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...psb2ffdb51.jpg

[Dmb408]

I am pretty sure ECS tuning has varying thread length bolts for our car since they sell spacer kits...

[bmlee007]

I've read somewhere that 7-8 threads is optimal. Our lug bolts are 14x1.5, and I believe the original length was 27mm for stock wheels. The short answer would be to add the thickness of the spacer to come up with the correct length.

However:

The best course of action would be to remove one bolt and measure the thread length, and add 3mm to that. Since the pitch is 1.5mm, the two threads you need would add up to 3mm. I say this is the best way to determine what you need, because the wheel hub thickness may be more than what you had originally.

On my recent purchase, I bought OZ wheels from Tire Rack, and spacers and bolts from ECS. I used my original thinking, and ordered 37mm bolts based on original length of 27mm plus a 10mm spacer. When I went to bolt them up, I was only getting about 1.5 threads. When I checked the wheels, there was more material at the mounting hub than my original wheels, so I had to order new bolts. Your peelers may be the same thickness as your original wheels, but measuring is the quickest and best way to get what you need.

As a side note, I have a brand new set of black ECS M14x1.5 37mm lug bolts I don't need, if anyone is interested.

[ttboost]

I bought spacers and bolts from Tire Rack.

[nistah]

Thanks found out the place I bought the spacers will exchange the lugs @ no cost. I notice that in the beast with 19" wheels speed bumps need to be taken more slowly!

[Avus-RS6]

Follow Up:

275 30 19 Nitto NT-05 tires on 19 x 9.5 et 26 looks great on my lowered RS6 with PSS9's. Fronts rub badly on cornering, finally got to take a sporty jaunt with a willing passenger in the right seat. I'll be getting the fenders rolled to clear. I am somewhat disappointed I have to do this but the car really needs the wide rubber and looks great on the HRE's!

[G2]

Nistah, I got extra bolts from Bahnbrenner and spacers. I use bolts that go all the way thru the drive flange. There's plenty of room on the backside.

One of the reasons I do this is because import/china fasteners typically are rounded and the first 1-2 threads don't properly engage. Where as the OE German bolts do.

Common sense, but when I worked in Engineering that consideration (thread engagement) was something we had to closely follow. I want to source OE quality grade wheel bolts for the summer wheels, but have not so far. Probably should before I do a track day at PIR this year, where 130+MPH is realistic on the big straight (right before threashold braking is needed; talk about wheel torque!).

Err on the side of safety and run the bolts long on this car, IMHO.

[G2]

Follow Up:

275 30 19 Nitto NT-05 tires on 19 x 9.5 et 26 looks great on my lowered RS6 with PSS9's. Fronts rub badly on cornering, finally got to take a sporty jaunt with a willing passenger in the right seat. I'll be getting the fenders rolled to clear. I am somewhat disappointed I have to do this but the car really needs the wide rubber and looks great on the HRE's!

What's the load index on those tires?

There's screws under the front lip (12 o'clock) that can be removed. Curious how the fender rolling works out. I can't see how it can be rolled anymore w/o damaging paint.....please update if you have that done.

[G2]

No matter which direction you go, make sure your tires have a load index rating of 99 or higher. One of the big reasons you'll get flat spots is due to the load on those tires that aren't rated for it. Another thing to consider is if you curb your wheels (yeah, yeah, I know, we're all expert drivers here, only our wives/valet/etc have ever rashed the wheels), the softer ply of the tires that have a lower rating will be more likely to gash the sidewall at the seat bead, ruining your tire.

I understand that with a higher load rating, the ride is a bit harsher. If that's a major concern, I don't recommend upsizing your wheels. On 19's, your exact (within 0.25%) match tire options are:
255/35/19
295/30/19
Either of which has roughly the same height of sidewall (~3.5") compared to the roughly 4" of sidewall that you'll want on an 18" rim. That half-inch may not sound like much difference, but in ride quality terms, it makes a noticeable difference.

You're well on your way to really "getting" what is important - I see you talking about contact patch. Yes, the more contact you're making with the road, the better. That said, your stock tires make contact at 10" wide by anywhere from 4-6 inches long patches. Going in the median of that, that means ~50in^2 per tire contact. Going with wider tires adds very little to that patch (this isn't some old Honda, where you're going from 145-wide to 225-wide, net gain 50%) - talking about going from a 255-wide to a 275-wide is a net gain of ~8%, and softer ply means you'll make a bit more contact length to the tune of maybe a percentage or two. Call it a 10% gain in dry, straight-line contact. Having talked with folks who've done big builds on their vehicles, stock tires have done them right up to 550whp. They can floor it and get a chirp as the Quattro kicks in and mangles their Torsen diff. If you're making anywhere near stock power, you're probably not going to need that additional contact patch. Where this all changes is if you're trying to get better cornering, wet, or snow traction.

For cornering traction, brother, you are in the wrong vehicle. 4400lb curb weight and a tendency towards body roll are not your friend. Anyway, you'll do more for yourself swapping in the Hotchkis sway bars than any amount of wider tires could do for you. You could also look into spring limiters for a stronger damping at the extremes of suspension travel. I'm not an expert by any means, but I play one on TV...

For wet and/or snow traction, it's all about the tire itself. Wet traction, you want a traction pattern that does 2 things - maximize the contact patch with the road, and minimize the amount of water allowed under the tire (usually, via ducting out existing water along chevron-shaped grooves that give the water a path of least resistance pointing outward). Snow traction is a whole 'nother beast, and my only recommendation here is Blizzaks for everyday, and chains/studs if you're talking deep snow with possibility of ice. The Blizzaks will wear faster than your typical passenger tire (24k mile rating compared to 40k+), but on an AWD system like we have, it's like a mountain goat compared to rolling around on bowling balls in very slick conditions.

I've gone and gotten all wordy again. Let me know if this helped/hurt/didn't make a difference. If you've got any questions, I'm here more than I probably should be, but it never hurts to PM me and say "Hey, I posted a question in the tire/wheel offset thread, could you take a look?"

Thanks
O_E

O_E,

Thanks for all the input. I can see it's also written as general info and to help others. Always good.

The flat spotting issue seems far worse with low profile tires, irrespective of the Load Index. You hadn't asked, but the S04's were a 100 index and sized 275/35-19. Those tires were annoying but not terrible for flat spotting. The semi-exception to this rule was an OE set of B-stone RE760's i was forced to buy hours after my car purchase. They were poor in my opinion, but once warmed up rode very nice and quiet, with decent handling. But with a major flaw..

The contact patch issue is also a safety factor for me. Not just going fast, spinning wheels and or cornering Those RE760's didn't stop anywhere near what the brakes are capable of. My Ridgeline with EBC brakes and A/T tires stopped better. Even the wife noticed the difference. But the same sized tire in a Michelin stop better due to the rubber compound.

However, in terms of contact patch width (not area), it's 8" as it sits, with 9" a max width (extreme braking for example). The RE11 275/30's are 9.25" and 10" respectively.

Naturally we are aware the RS6 is heavy (mine weighs 4260lbs), but Dude, these cars can corner, pretty darn well . I bought those RE11's because traction was the missing element. The other points hold water to help, but have already been done. (see my car specs in sig). Ride quality is commesurate to handling for me. Part of the root issue is my shocks need further adjusting. Increasing the compression damping helped reduce the tire flat spot kickback.

With that said, it won't ever handle or corner like my 2100 lb street/track car, but the RS6 is a bit faster in straight line (despite having double or more the power). I hope, and think that anyone buying a luxo GT car realizes it's a compromise machine. I knew perfectly well the RS6 is a street and highway "Brawler". Able to take down, as it were, formidable opponents. But also easy to drive.

Tires just seem to be the weak link for this car. I'm happy with AS3, despite the lower load index (96, Y speed). Talked with my tire guy for some time on the pro's and con's.

A new set of 275/30 PSS's (96Y) are coming next week (295's won't fit; not going staggered). I don't expect the same traction as the RE11's, but overall hoping it's a better compromise, but better steering feel. Eventually a set of track day wheels/tires will find a home on the Beast (and RE11's might be fine for that). But the other Audi will get a set of AS3's this fall, probably the best all-season and light snow/winter tire I've used. See if the PSS's can handle some track time, w/o chunking. Maybe they will be worn down enough not too by then

Like yourself, I should be doing other things. But thanks again for wrangling some of these issues best as you could.

[nistah]

Originally Posted by nistah
Erik I pulled the trigger on the set of slicers described above. I understand that I will need 4x57.1->66.56mm hub bore adapters, 5x112 bolt pattern however not clear on the 4x20mm 5x112 bolt pattern spacers they seem to have spacers for both the 57.1 & 66.5 hub bore wheels since I am adapting to 66.56 I suspect I need the first ones listed below

20mm Hubcentric Wheel Spacer Kit Fit Audi A5/S5 2009-2012 Bolt Pattern: 5x112 Center Bore: 66.5 Thread Type...


20mm 5x112 Hubcentric Wheel Spacers for Audi A4 A3 A6 VW Jetta Golf GTI (57.1 Bore)


However not sure, please confirm so I can idiot proof my plan before ordering. Thanks again for your knowledge and help on this topic!

Hopefully I'm not too late to help.

You _can_ use either of those spacers. It's all a question of how you sandwich the stack. I would recommend you go this way:

Hub-->Adapter-->Spacer-->Wheel
In which case you would want the 57.1->66.56mm adapter and the 66.56mm spacer

If you've already ordered everything and picked up the 57.1mm spacer, you'll need to sandwich them like so:

Hub-->Spacer-->Adapter-->Wheel
I only say that I don't recommend this because it means putting your wheel lugs through the wheel and the adapter into the spacer, and I know what a pain in the ass it is to mount wheels by hand without a magic stick...

Erik

Since installing the 19X8.5 43MM offset peeler wheels from a 2012 S4 I sometimes get an annoying squeaking noise when going over bumps.

I used 57.1->66.56mm hub bore adapters and 4 Pc Audi 5x112 20 MM Thick 57.1 Hub Centric Wheel Spacers to fit the wheels. Thought the squeaks may have been from increased load however mechanic took a look and suggested spacers were too large and thus rubbing. Anyone know what size spacer I should try next?? If I was to order the 20 MM 66.56 hub spacer could that eliminate the squeaking problem or would I need another size.

[Other_Erik]

Originally Posted by nistah
Erik I pulled the trigger on the set of slicers described above. I understand that I will need 4x57.1->66.56mm hub bore adapters, 5x112 bolt pattern however not clear on the 4x20mm 5x112 bolt pattern spacers they seem to have spacers for both the 57.1 & 66.5 hub bore wheels since I am adapting to 66.56 I suspect I need the first ones listed below

20mm Hubcentric Wheel Spacer Kit Fit Audi A5/S5 2009-2012 Bolt Pattern: 5x112 Center Bore: 66.5 Thread Type...


20mm 5x112 Hubcentric Wheel Spacers for Audi A4 A3 A6 VW Jetta Golf GTI (57.1 Bore)


However not sure, please confirm so I can idiot proof my plan before ordering. Thanks again for your knowledge and help on this topic!



Since installing the 19X8.5 43MM offset peeler wheels from a 2012 S4 I sometimes get an annoying squeaking noise when going over bumps.

I used 57.1->66.56mm hub bore adapters and 4 Pc Audi 5x112 20 MM Thick 57.1 Hub Centric Wheel Spacers to fit the wheels. Thought the squeaks may have been from increased load however mechanic took a look and suggested spacers were too large and thus rubbing. Anyone know what size spacer I should try next?? If I was to order the 20 MM 66.56 hub spacer could that eliminate the squeaking problem or would I need another size.

Did you use any lubricant on the metal-metal contact surface of the spacer? Recommend brake anti-squeak compound, shouldn't need too very much of it. Sorry, have been doing my own wrenchwork so long it never even occurred to me to suggest that. Should also help keep the rust buildup at bay (for now)

O_E