Audi without VW???

[tvrfan]

hey guys, i have one question. could audi successfully survive independent from VW and stay with the competition like BMW ???

what do you think???

[RXBG]

nope. no way.

[AndyBG]

You have asked SF question...!

[RXBG]

in other news- i don't think VW would do well without audi either. audi is the revenue crown jewel of the vw company.

[tvrfan]

You have asked SF question...!

what means SF???

[AndyBG]

Science Fiction!

[tvrfan]

i like "SF". and i like to know what will be in future. i know also that maybe nobody knows what will happen

[RXBG]

Science Fiction!

LOL. yeah right.

[Benman]

nope. no way.

Why is it so impossible? Afterall, what automotive giant is keeping BMW propped up? Why can BMW do it, but not Audi?

Last, sorry, clicked on "edit post" instead of "quote". Didn't touch it.

Ben

[Z07]

Could Porsche have survived without VW?

[AndyBG]

Could Porsche have survived without VW?

For sure, no...!
They are all together for such a long time... all manufacturers in world are searching someone to merge, and asking q' could Audi go by itself is apsurd...

[tailpipe]

Benman,

BMW is in trouble. I know that may sound ridiculous, because both sales and profits have grown year on year for some time. But the truth is both Mercedes-Benz and the Volkswagen Group are rapidly outpacing BMWs growth through larger model ranges, greater sales growth and greater profitability. The question on the Auto Industry's lips is how long before this relative decline becomes a rout? BMW is becoming a niche player. The 1-Series has made little impact in a segment that BMW needed to succeed in to have any hope of remaining competitive, which is why it has invested so much on a range of new FWD budget hatchbacks. Will a revised 1-Series be able to beat VWs Golf or the A-Class? Or even the Ford Focus? I doubt it. Meanwhile, both the Audi A4 and C-Class have eaten into 3-Series territory. The 5-Series is standing up well, but the 7-Series continues to be an also ran. So what car company is propping up BMW? Mini. But even the Mini is getting attacked by the FIAT 500 and now the Audi A1.

[Joker]

Benman,

BMW is in trouble. I know that may sound ridiculous, because both sales and profits have grown year on year for some time. But the truth is both Mercedes-Benz and the Volkswagen Group are rapidly outpacing BMWs growth through larger model ranges, greater sales growth and greater profitability. The question on the Auto Industry's lips is how long before this relative decline becomes a rout? BMW is becoming a niche player. The 1-Series has made little impact in a segment that BMW needed to succeed in to have any hope of remaining competitive, which is why it has invested so much on a range of new FWD budget hatchbacks. Will a revised 1-Series be able to beat VWs Golf or the A-Class? Or even the Ford Focus? I doubt it. Meanwhile, both the Audi A4 and C-Class have eaten into 3-Series territory. The 5-Series is standing up well, but the 7-Series continues to be an also ran. So what car company is propping up BMW? Mini. But even the Mini is getting attacked by the FIAT 500 and now the Audi A1.

Don't know how you can say that, for a start BMW is much smaller than either of them, especially VAG which is enormous in comparison, then there is the profits argument, I am sure I read somewhere that VW itself isn't very profitable at all and it's the likes of Audi to are keeping them afloat, might explain why the Golf versions are changing more frequently to improve building cost to a more acceptable level. As an independent I reckon BMW are quicker to change direction that either of it's competitors and this is being seen in the list of engines that are soon to be introduced. Just look how quick they have adapted to customer's needs, the X6, the X1, the 5GT, all cars that a niche in design to meet what people want and their popularity shows they are getting it right simply because they had the jump on everyone else. The Mini is the success of the last decade, look at VW's attempts to rekindle past glories, where as the Mini captured the heart of world the Beetle was a flop.

Audi might be in my blood but I can still admire the efforts of it's competitors.

[tailpipe]

Don't know how you can say that, for a start BMW is much smaller than either of them, especially VAG which is enormous in comparison, then there is the profits argument, I am sure I read somewhere that VW itself isn't very profitable at all and it's the likes of Audi to are keeping them afloat, might explain why the Golf versions are changing more frequently to improve building cost to a more acceptable level. As an independent I reckon BMW are quicker to change direction that either of it's competitors and this is being seen in the list of engines that are soon to be introduced. Just look how quick they have adapted to customer's needs, the X6, the X1, the 5GT, all cars that a niche in design to meet what people want and their popularity shows they are getting it right simply because they had the jump on everyone else. The Mini is the success of the last decade, look at VW's attempts to rekindle past glories, where as the Mini captured the heart of world the Beetle was a flop.

Audi might be in my blood but I can still admire the efforts of it's competitors.

Joker, my point is that BMW used to be as big as both the VW Group and Mercedes-Benz. It isn't now, because, as much as BMW has grown, it simply hasn't kept pace with its main German competitors. Besides, my point about relative size and competitiveness has nothing to do with the quality of BMW products. It's about how BMW's increasing lack of scale and the need to sell its cars at more or less the same prices as Audi and Mercedes-Benz has reduced its relative profitability. It has less cash available to reinvest in new products. This is what is eroding its competitiveness. This lack of resources has let both Audi and MB expand their product portfolios to BMW's detriment. BMW's engines have always been excellent, this is its core competency. It also has excellent engineers, but the facts unavoidably and objectively suggest that it has lost the momentum it used to have. A recent article in the FT quoted a major parts supplier who remarked on how BMW's buying power had shrunk. So this isn't my uninformed view, it is a synthesis of what a great many insiders are saying. I think that is interesting and significant, which is why I mentioned it.

I would dispute whether the X6 and 5-Series GT are the successes you believe them to be. They simply aren't best sellers, not only because of their niche status but also be cause of their price. They needed to be mainstream new-category-creating models, like Mercedes-Benz's CLS or Audi's All-road versions of the A4 and A6. AFAIK, the X6 has been a monumental failure given its overall return on investment. Conversely, what has also helped VW is its multi-brand portfolio. Subtle variations of individual models have been tailored to suit different buyer tastes.

Finally, I agree with you about the Mini. It has been a great success. Indeed, without it, BMW might no longer be independent. I believe it is only a matter of time before the Quandt family are forced to sell-up and BMW partners with another player.

[Benman]

Tailpipe, I think you make great points but I'm not fully convinced BMW is "in trouble". True, the mega giants may have more purchasing power, but then, so did GM.

I think in the end, the way a company is run is the defining aspect of what success they have. My original point was simply, if BMW can do it, why not Audi? And yes, I realize VW will never sell Audi, I am just stating it is not that impossible for a "smaller" company to pull it off.

Ben

[tailpipe]

Ben, you make interesting points too. But, it's okay to disagree.

I'd love to bet you a stiff drink or two that BMW will partner with another major player within 2 years.

[Benman]

I'll take that bet. That will not however include the price of the plane ticket to Southern California.

Ben