I'm hopping that the new Sport Quattro/Project Anniversario might bring that performance edge back to RS models.
I'm hopping that the new Sport Quattro/Project Anniversario might bring that performance edge back to RS models.
Audi, somehow, allways late behind others...
RS 5 obviously have 4.2 V8 only in order ''to prolonge'' stronger 3.0 T...
Why Audi can't be the first when it comes to engine development... For instance, Merc' has canceled 4.0 V8 diesel in S class, so its obvious that they are preparing twin turbo V6, BMW did that long time ago, while Audi is presenting new A8 with V8 diesel...
Merc' droped 5.5l V8 n/a in favour of 4.7l V8 twin turbo, BMW did that, also, long time ago, while Audi is presenting new A8 with 4.2l V8 n/a...
Problem is, Audi will be doing same things as MB and BMW, but ALLWAYS with several years later...
Is Audi somehow destined to follow...?
It becomes very clear that they can't be first in anything, technicaly speaking, comparing to concurention.
And one more thig!
Why is now easyer to choose MUCH more BMWs and MBs with four wheel drive than Audi!
Audi is nown for its quattro, but concurention has more AWD cars on offer!
Auto' gearboxes issue is also on table... Many of the most interestin Audi model are still not available with Auto' gearbox, witch is in 21 century APSURD!
Dear Friends,Audi, somehow, allways late behind others... Problem is, Audi will be doing same things as MB and BMW, but ALLWAYS with several years later...
well- actually those engines are ready and will be shown soon.
Qisha
PS: in the end it is not about being first but to be the most profitable... not always what a enthusiast would expect- i know.
For years there has been rumours of a v6 bi-turbo diesel, will this engine ever make it to production?Originally Posted by Qisha
Dear Friends,
well- actually those engines are ready and will be shown soon.
Qisha
PS: in the end it is not about being first but to be the most profitable... not always what a enthusiast would expect- i know.
There is little doubt that Porsche as well as Audi could make good use of such an engine.
whats about a tri-turbo. when audi uses the slogan "vorsprung durch technik" then audi must be the first with such a motor. but bmw again, has it under devoplement
~~~And God did ask the stones... wants their Quattro to drive... the stones answered..." no we“re not hard enough".~~~
I don't think it's quite that bad, but you certainly have a very good point.
But I do agree the space for the "best driver's car" is open for someone else to "park" there. Just do it...!
RS6.com Owner and Admin. The PRISM of RS6.com - Click here to send me an e-mail
Bmw m400whats about a tri-turbo. When audi uses the slogan "vorsprung durch technik" then audi must be the first with such a motor. But bmw again, has it under devoplement
RS6.com Owner and Admin. The PRISM of RS6.com - Click here to send me an e-mail
This is very true, but 5 years of engine leadership help a lot with the perceived brand image. The aura of cutting edge engine development brings positive press which helps establish the brand and last but not least drives sales.PS: in the end it is not about being first but to be the most profitable... not always what a enthusiast would expect- i know.
For me Stronic/DSG was the quintessential example of vorsprung durch technik and Audi should push for a top to bottom Stronic range as soon as possible wherever it makes sense. (A8 and Q7's target is probably better suited by the 8speed ZF).
If the rumored BMW triturbo 3.0 diesel checks wins over the V8 4.2 TDI in all categories it's going to be another big image win for BMW.
I belive they are ready, but BMW and Merc' have them for so many years now...Dear Friends,
well- actually those engines are ready and will be shown soon.
Qisha
BMWs 3.0l R6 twin turbo diesel was launched in 2004 !!!
BMWs 2.0l R4 twin turbo diesel and Merc's 2.2l R4 twin turbo are here for some time now, while I havn't heard about VAGs 2.0 TTDI...
Dear AndyBG,
the main problem is, engineering a V-Layout staged induction diesel engine is a pain. Mostly because of heat leading to reliability issues etc.
The 3.0 V6 TDI in its latest evolution has a great potential, there is no need for a staged or double forced induction to get 300HP and 650NM out of it, with daily driving comfort and continued reliability.
Qisha
That is 100% true, problem is, for instance, on markets where you pay taxes based on the volume of the engine, not power, everybody is buying smaller engines with more power... BTW 2.0 TDI is streight 4 engine, why there isn't twin turbo one...?Dear AndyBG,
the main problem is, engineering a V-Layout staged induction diesel engine is a pain. Mostly because of heat leading to reliability issues etc.
The 3.0 V6 TDI in its latest evolution has a great potential, there is no need for a staged or double forced induction to get 300HP and 650NM out of it, with daily driving comfort and continued reliability.
Qisha
Second thing is, Audi scholud make, if it allowed for them, a breaktrough, and be first in something, technicaly speaking...
RS 5 was great oppurtunity for high perforamance 3.0 T to be introduced, not to FOLLOW BMW and Merc' with big V8, their cars were presented with those enfines several years ago... Specially when we all now that next M3, not that far away, will be 3.0 TT... In this situation, I certenly can guess that next RS 4/5 will be 3.0 T...
Still, I would like to adress ''quattro'' and Auto' gearbox questions once again... It is essential for Audi to have biggest offer of 4WD cars, and it has to have same level of Auto'gearbox offer...
Best example is, you can't have A4 2.0 TDI quattro with any kind of auto' gearbox! BMW have 320d xDrive with steptronic, MB even have C 250 CDI 4MATIC with any kind of transmision. Maybe not that much interesting for this site, but certanly very interesting for Audi, B/C it is a great potential seller... This is high volume selling car...!
quattro and automatic transmision must be offered in wider range of
audi cars!
I have to agree that Porsche is overall 1-2 notches ahead of Audi (and also BMW & Merc) in terms of both performance and prestige and VW has so far not diluted this fact. Hopefully things stay this way and at least the Lambo experience is encouraging. That said, a few issues aside, I feel that we are too harsh on Audi. The RS5 is NOT overall technically a failure by any means and nor is the R8 V10. Audi just got too greedy on the pricing, weight is a cronic problem and Audi remains undecided on what it want the cars to be relative to competition in terms of character. More and better communicated development focus will certainly help. A weighty GT such as the RS5 should have a lot more torque and be more comfortable - but yet be well built with lots of feelgood and agile and fun enough such as the current iteration is. I.e. a more sporty Bentley Continental GT. Audi should better play its strengths rather than trying to copy others.
QuattroFun,
I agree, I think we are being a bit too hard on Audi. Overall, its cars are excellent - I had to go away from the brand and buy something else to realize that: my Lexus was an expensive mistake. Let's face it, Audi currently makes five truly outstanding engines, the 2.0-litre petrol and diesel fours; the 3.0-litre petrol and diesel V6s; and the 2.5-litre five. When the 4.2-litre V8 came out, Jeremy Clarkson described it as one of the great engines. It may be old now, but it has rendered excellent service. Moreover, the new 4.0-litre V8 will be spectacular. So, soon we'll be able to add a sixth engine to the line-up.
Ultimately, my own choice of a performance model depends on the engine. A great engine is the beating heart of a good car. I think Audi has an edge over BMW now. As for Mercedes-Benz, look how long it has taken to introduce direct injection.
What we all universally seem to be complaining about is Audi's pricing. The TT-RS is an amazing car. For all it's merits, it just doesn't have the focus, driving pleasure, street credibility and ownership kudos that a Cayman/ Boxter does. So charging more money for the TT-RS doesn't stack up in my book. This is true for quite a few Audi models. I think it represents over-confidence, perhaps even arrogance, on behalf of Audi senior management. McLaren's Ron Dennis always says that confidence is a weakness: it breeds complacency.
There's something else about pricing: from the original Quattro, to the RS2, to the RS4 and RS6, Audi consistently produced very conservative looking cars: "Q"cars, that humbled focused sports cars costing twice as much. The original Quattro was quite superb in this regard. It had a mere 220 bhp! £80,000 for the latest RS6 was absurd and destroyed the concept.
What all this reflects is that the many RS owners and fans on this forum appreciate great engineering above badge snobbery. We buy Audi's because they are brilliant cars, not because they reflect wealth, status or some other non-driving related badge. In that respect, we are people who care about value. Audi should not forget this.
^
in this respect, we should all thank Audi for start making more driving focused cars as it wasn't the case just few years ago! We cannot just make reference to the rs2, which was built with porsche, and rave about unforgettable past and piss on new models! Audi has never been better than today, even though going into too many niches! Even the B7 RS4 was never a real driving car with amazing dynamics! It only destroyed the previous M3 thanks to its engine (which is again something that Audi achieved and seems like it's not recognized enough!).
And no, am not defending them blindly but we have to be objective and take our hats off this time to the guys from our beloved marque (if it still is to someone of you!?)
cheers!
One think is clear : we all love Audi for all what we have been mentionning on this post (and others). But Audi is currently at a turning point and all our (constructive) remarks are hopefully being taken into consideration through Qisha and others. This is up to Audi to get the right "inflow" to get to the next level and really be unanimously recognise as trully good option to BMW, Porsche and others on driving pleasure and fun factor.
I am convinced that more and more car enthusiastics will be looking to pure pleasure cars delivering fun and sensations no matter the driving style. Allround/allweather super fast "trains" are less and less objectively usable due to stricter speed limitations, controls, etc... I remember myself completing record times on various well known vacations/week end trips (mixed of highway, B roads, mountain with rains, night and day) with my TT and especially with my former S4 biturbo. But this type of trips are now probably over because too risky (fines).
We do not want Audi to "destroy" the E46 M3 (5 years older at that time...) with the B7 RS4. We want the RS5 and upcoming (hopefully soon) new RS4 to "destroy" the E92 M3, C63, etc.
Can i kindly disagree with many of You guys? I do not really think that Audi has done anything wrong in the past 10 years. They went through a huge development in every way a carmaker can.
Four wheel drive and auto gearboxes? Here is an example:
A guy i know has recently wanted to purchase a new car-BMW 5 was his first candidate, a 530D accurately, really nice car isn't it? But after talking to BMW dealer (in the capital city, BMW is not available in our hometown) they offered a audacious high price, plus refused to count in any of his current cars. In our climate zone and conditions, 4 wheel drive is a thing which is simple necessary if you want to travel during winter and 530D is not available with AWD yet. Then he turned to Audi (which is in our hometown with full service availability) and they offered him a A7 3.0 TDI Quattro with about the same price taking in two (!) of his old cars. Such a shame he bought an Infinity because of insanely low price, but this represents a thing- Audi (and VW also) is desperate about supporting costumers by taking in old cars and servicing as many places as possible, not only in big towns. At least in Europe. This is much more important in the status of 'premium brand' than having a few stuffs looking very good on paper.
You've also mentioned bi-turbo engines which are very good, but i don't see so much need of a 3.0 Bi-turbo in current range for example. The place where i would like to see an engine like this is probably a ~2016 B9 S4 replacing current V6 with an equivalent diesel one. That would be a breakthrough. The same doesn't refers to the 4 cylinders, current 2.0 TDI's need a change, but VW's Bi-TDIs are almost there at least in new Passat CC and i don't think it will take long to find it's way to A4 as well with both 180 and 204 hp versions.
It is not always the perfect way to do what others do, why we need a V8 biturbo in A8 if the 4.2 FSI consumpts less fuel while going faster than 750i? We will need it in S6/S7. It won't be enough against the new Mercedes bi-turbo V8 but by the time Audi will finaly release the V8 TFSI as well i think.
I don't know how many of you have driven the new A8 4.2 TDI yet but i did so and all is can say it is absolutely mind blowing, i can not see simply any chance for BMW to touch that with a 3.0 tri.turbo or whatever especially in a heavier car.
Going back on topic-refering to Porsche, of course Porsche is a few steps ahead of Audi in sportscar territory, yet. But don't forget what these two car manufacturers are about: Audi started to become a premium brand in the early '80s with producing excellent luxury and sports cars based on plain simple front wheel driven every-day VWs and now they ahead of BMW and Mercedes in building sports cars. Porsche was always on of the best race and sportscar manufacturer in the world, give Audi a few years after current R8 and i bet they will be equal. This is what they were excellent throughout the years-building premium products from what they had, not like it's competitors.
I hope You all understand what i mean and sorry for the long post..
Regars,
Tom
5 Audis so far...currently:
2007 Audi A4 B7 2.0 TDI Multitronic
The first part of your post simply refers to one specific case of "not top" client feedback after contacting BMW who finally ended up to Audi with a nice product choice. This is not really showing any Audi strenght as the contrary is for shure happening as well.
Audi do have (as previously said) a great evolution and products but the consensus feels that they are still lacking to be the first one getting someting really new especially engine wise.
Then getting back to the title of the topic we all agree there is no match eventhough Audi first attempt with both R8 is a truly fantastic achievement and it has for shure opened an interesting door for Audi but it needs time (and much other thinks...) to get to the level of a 40 years pure sports car manufacturer like Porsche. Finally, this is not what we are asking Audi to achieve.
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