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Thread: New theory about RS5 engine

  1. #19
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    So, most members here wants new 4.0 TFSI in RS5...

    OK, let's look at potential numbers for 3993ccm V8 biturbo engine...

    465ps/6000-6500rpm(as minimun value-upper limit is at 480ps)
    530Nm/1500-6000rpm
    10,5:1 Kompression ratio
    Engine weight about 20kg more(YES!!!) then HDZ 4.2 FSI(450ps)

    Here is part of the problem-how good is 7speed S Tronic for this usage? Remember that 550Nm is upper limit. So, with tuning we could see some broken S Tronics... Next thing is turque limit for current Sport Diff... Again-about the same as for S Tronic 550Nm(just beware that Torsen quattro can handle up to 100% of power on rear wheels if needed)...

    Other interesting reason is that current 7speed S Tronic is phisically too long for V8 engine. It can fit as Audi shown in some test mules but, gearbox was suffering from overheating... So, new-different 7speed S Tronic is needed(in develoment-intro 2011).

    BTW, first Audi model that will get new 4.0TFSI will also use new 8speed Tiptronic with it...

  2. #20
    Registered User The Pretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    BTW, first Audi model that will get new 4.0TFSI will also use new 8speed Tiptronic with it...
    All to be introduced in the next Gen A8.

    Jarod.
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  3. #21
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    KresoF1,

    I see your point
    RS5 is not technically ready to meet this new engine

    So we will see it first in S7 then:-) -I mean tuned version not basic one with 400PS
    RS7 will be fitted with RS6 engine

  4. #22
    Registered User tailpipe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    So, most members here wants new 4.0 TFSI in RS5...

    OK, let's look at potential numbers for 3993ccm V8 biturbo engine...

    465ps/6000-6500rpm(as minimun value-upper limit is at 480ps)
    530Nm/1500-6000rpm
    10,5:1 Kompression ratio
    Engine weight about 20kg more(YES!!!) then HDZ 4.2 FSI(450ps)

    Here is part of the problem-how good is 7speed S Tronic for this usage? Remember that 550Nm is upper limit. So, with tuning we could see some broken S Tronics... Next thing is turque limit for current Sport Diff... Again-about the same as for S Tronic 550Nm(just beware that Torsen quattro can handle up to 100% of power on rear wheels if needed)...

    Other interesting reason is that current 7speed S Tronic is phisically too long for V8 engine. It can fit as Audi shown in some test mules but, gearbox was suffering from overheating... So, new-different 7speed S Tronic is needed(in develoment-intro 2011).

    BTW, first Audi model that will get new 4.0TFSI will also use new 8speed Tiptronic with it...
    Very interesting point. So RS5 could not use tuned version of existing 4.2 litre NA engine for same reason? Is it therefore possible that RS5 will use a Tiptronic box, existing or new 8-Speed?

  5. #23
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    No, you did not understand my post.

    4.2 HDZ FSI with 450ps/450Nm can be mated with current 7speed S Tronic without any problem.

  6. #24
    Registered User The Pretender's Avatar
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    It make no difference what engine comes under the bonnet, all depends on the weight of the thing.

    Jarod.
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  7. #25
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    i really dont want a 4.2l HDZ. i dont like NA . i want to see the 4.0 TFSI. also the 4.2l HDZ wont be "vorsprung durch technik" that would be the 4.0 TFSI with better economy and emmissions compared to the M3 and C63 AMG
    ~~~And God did ask the stones... wants their Quattro to drive... the stones answered..." no we´re not hard enough".~~~

  8. #26
    Registered User The Pretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvrfan View Post
    i really dont want a 4.2l HDZ.
    Ditto.

    Jarod.
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    Geniuses with the ability to become anyone they want to be.....

  9. #27
    Registered User tailpipe's Avatar
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    I think you will need at least 450-460 bhp in RS5 to make it worth considering above the C63 - which by all accounts, i.e. sales is the benchmark for the category. Would an S-Tronic gearbox handle the extra torque put out by 460 bhp engine? I don't know, but beefing-up the output of the existing 4.2 FSI engine would incur a significant fuel economy penalty. That's why I don't think RS5 will go NA. It isn't a step forward. But then again the 5.2 litre Lamborghini engine in the R8 is hardly a step forward either, so you could be right.

    I still interpret Qisha's remarks to imply that the 4.0 litre V8 is coming in the RS5. God I hope I'm right.

  10. #28
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    Aren't RS 5s main rivals M3 Coupe and future E 63 AMG Coupe...?

    E 63 AMG Coupe is expected with 514 hp.

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tailpipe View Post
    I think you will need at least 450-460 bhp in RS5 to make it worth considering above the C63 - which by all accounts, i.e. sales is the benchmark for the category. Would an S-Tronic gearbox handle the extra torque put out by 460 bhp engine? I don't know, but beefing-up the output of the existing 4.2 FSI engine would incur a significant fuel economy penalty. That's why I don't think RS5 will go NA. It isn't a step forward. But then again the 5.2 litre Lamborghini engine in the R8 is hardly a step forward either, so you could be right.

    I still interpret Qisha's remarks to imply that the 4.0 litre V8 is coming in the RS5. God I hope I'm right.
    The M3 sedans and C63 sedan are the biggest sellers. M3 convertible outsells M3 coupe.

    I think the V10 RS6 torque is less than what it can actually make. A 4.0T would be at the limit of the S-Tronic gearbox like the RS6 is at the limit of the RS6 tiptronic.

    The V10 R8 has the same fuel economy as the V8 R8. If the next RS4/RS5 continue to use the naturally aspirated V8 they will likely get quite a bit better fuel economy than the B7 RS4. I think the reason why the B7 RS4 (and R8) gets fairly poor fuel economy is the poor gearing (RPM too high at highway speed) 7 speed S-Tronic would solve such problems. The B7 RS4 had fuel economy of 13.4 liter (in combined driving) A hypothetical B8 RS4/5 (S-Tronic) with the high rev V8 should match the M3 and use a liter less than the B7 RS4 (12.5 or maybe a little less) A twin turbo V8 could possibly knock off yet another liter in fuel consumption (11.5?) The current S4 is 9.4-9.7.

    I think earlier reports said that the RS5 would have been shown @ Detroit. It wasn't, which could indicate that Audi is changing engines. Of course there can be many other reasons for the delay.
    Last edited by chewym; February 10th, 2009 at 02:38.

  12. #30
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tailpipe View Post
    I think you will need at least 450-460 bhp in RS5 to make it worth considering above the C63 - which by all accounts, i.e. sales is the benchmark for the category. Would an S-Tronic gearbox handle the extra torque put out by 460 bhp engine? I don't know, but beefing-up the output of the existing 4.2 FSI engine would incur a significant fuel economy penalty. That's why I don't think RS5 will go NA. It isn't a step forward. But then again the 5.2 litre Lamborghini engine in the R8 is hardly a step forward either, so you could be right.

    I still interpret Qisha's remarks to imply that the 4.0 litre V8 is coming in the RS5. God I hope I'm right.
    QuattroGmbH chose to use the N/A V8 and uprate it so they could use the S/Tronic, that's my belief and yes it will be more economical than the previous version of the engine, my guess is 10~15% more economical. The sooner we move pass this thing of is it this or isn't it that engine the better, it's a HDZv8 and it may surprise you just how good it really is.

    Tailpipe, you can interpret Qisha's remarks and think it implies that it's a 4.0TFSi but it's not and no amount of wishful thinking will change that fact. I was told long ago that the RS5 would be running a N/A v8, long before everyone believe Detroit would be it's launch and it has been reaffirmed since that date that nothing has changed and the RS5 is still using the same engine choice. There must be a very good reason for choosing the N/A engine and I reckon that reason is the S/Tronic gearbox and Sportdiff. No other gearbox would be accepted for this class of car, sure there could be a manual and probably will be but every other manufacturer in this class are prompting DCT gearboxes, for Audi to not have this option then it will be seriously limiting it's selling appeal and the RS5 needs Sportdiff to match the involvement for the driver that the rest of the cars in it's class have.

    If things change and I hear different I will be right on my keyboard informing you lot but so far NOTHING has changed.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tailpipe View Post
    But then again the 5.2 litre Lamborghini engine in the R8 is hardly a step forward either, so you could be right.

    I still interpret Qisha's remarks to imply that the 4.0 litre V8 is coming in the RS5. God I hope I'm right.
    So, for you Audi's 5.2 FSI HDZ V10 in R8 is nothing special... First, it is Audi's engine since Audi owns Lambo. Even first Gallardo engine was designed on Audi Block. It is Audi's engine that is using different exhaust and ECU mapping for LP560-4.
    Second, Audi is world leader in DFI engine development. Did you know that Ferrari bought two R8 4.2 FSI for evalution since they do not have any experince with DFI's? Result is California DFI engine that is using almost the same ECU layout as R8's 4.2 FSI...

    Now look at this lists...

    High reving NA DFI engines:

    Audi R8 5.2 FSI
    Audi R8 4.2 FSI
    Ferrari California

    Mid reving(up to 7600rpm) DFI engines:

    Audi A4 3.2 FSI
    Jaguar XK 5.0
    Porsche 997.2 Carrera S
    Porsche 997.2 Carrera
    Porsche Cayman S

    Kompressor DFI engines:

    Audi S4
    Jaguar XKR

    Biturbo DFI engines:

    Audi RS6
    BMW 335i
    BMW 750i


    For your information only Nissan GT-R engine is old technology as is Porsche 997 Turbo's. Even new 997.2 GT3 is using old GT1 block based 3.8L engine without DFI.

    Audi's engines are pure SOTA IMHO.

  14. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    So, for you Audi's 5.2 FSI HDZ V10 in R8 is nothing special... First, it is Audi's engine since Audi owns Lambo. Even first Gallardo engine was designed on Audi Block. It is Audi's engine that is using different exhaust and ECU mapping for LP560-4.
    Second, Audi is world leader in DFI engine development. Did you know that Ferrari bought two R8 4.2 FSI for evalution since they do not have any experince with DFI's? Result is California DFI engine that is using almost the same ECU layout as R8's 4.2 FSI...

    Now look at this lists...

    High reving NA DFI engines:

    Audi R8 5.2 FSI
    Audi R8 4.2 FSI
    Ferrari California

    Mid reving(up to 7600rpm) DFI engines:

    Audi A4 3.2 FSI
    Jaguar XK 5.0
    Porsche 997.2 Carrera S
    Porsche 997.2 Carrera
    Porsche Cayman S

    Kompressor DFI engines:

    Audi S4
    Jaguar XKR

    Biturbo DFI engines:

    Audi RS6
    BMW 335i
    BMW 750i


    For your information only Nissan GT-R engine is old technology as is Porsche 997 Turbo's. Even new 997.2 GT3 is using old GT1 block based 3.8L engine without DFI.

    Audi's engines are pure SOTA IMHO.
    Nice one info BTW
    BMW has only two good DFI engines...
    997,2 Turbo soon will join the competition - after the FL, I hope

    But Audi's engines are masterpieces really...

  15. #33
    Registered User tailpipe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KresoF1 View Post
    So, for you Audi's 5.2 FSI HDZ V10 in R8 is nothing special... First, it is Audi's engine since Audi owns Lambo. Even first Gallardo engine was designed on Audi Block. It is Audi's engine that is using different exhaust and ECU mapping for LP560-4.

    Audi's engines are pure SOTA IMHO.
    KresF1,

    The world has changed. Even Mercedes-Benz admits that the horsepower war is over. We live on a planet with finite resources. It's time to drive performance cars that are more energy efficient and pollute less.

    "Go drive an electric mini, then!" I hear you say. The thing is I still want performance. I want power AND economy. That's why the S4 is so appealing. It is full clever tech. It was a brave car that shows Audi's leadership IMHO.

    That said, the 4.2 litre FSI is still a mighty engine. Jeremy Clarkson described it as one of the greats. After owning an E46 M3, the RS4 converted me to Audi. The penalty was dire fuel consumption. London to Italy (which I do regularly) required way too many fuel stops versus the M3, (5 versus 3). So in the end, I saw the car as more of a toy than a real world, everyday car. So it went. (I bought a Lexus instead- which was the biggest mistake of my life, but that's a whole other story.)

    Now I want a fast Audi with Quattro again. I liked the old RS6, but am not convinced that its 5.2 V10 is really significantly better than 4.2 V8. The S4 has certainly got me interested. But, you know what, i want a V8.

    I looked at C63, but despite mighty performance, it is really a Merc version of RS4 and again very thirsty, but at least it has a bigger petrol tank. So am thinking about S4 or two cars: a replacement for A2 and something fast. Sadly it wont be an RS5. I need the extra doors.

    That's me.

  16. #34
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    Tailpipe, looks like it could be RS4 B8 for you:-) in 1,5 years
    or new BMW M5 in 2 years.

  17. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by artur777 View Post
    Nice one info BTW
    BMW has only two good DFI engines...
    997,2 Turbo soon will join the competition - after the FL, I hope

    But Audi's engines are masterpieces really...
    ...well the petrol engines are, the diesel ones are definitely not top of the class. BMW and now Jaguar (with their new twin sequential turbo v6 configuration) are the best IMHO. Audi need to up their game here.

  18. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    ...well the petrol engines are, the diesel ones are definitely not top of the class. BMW and now Jaguar (with their new twin sequential turbo v6 configuration) are the best IMHO. Audi need to up their game here.
    audi is really disapointing in diesel technology. they always say they are the diesel kings. ok V12 TDI is a masterpiece. but where is the longwaited 335d or 535d competitor from audi? the 3.0tdi is already old. bmw has offered superb diesel engines and there 286hp diesel engine is almost 5 or 6 years old and audi isnt even thinking about to deveplmonent such an engine. thats disapointing.
    ~~~And God did ask the stones... wants their Quattro to drive... the stones answered..." no we´re not hard enough".~~~

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