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Thread: Forget DSG, this is the real deal.

  1. #1
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Forget DSG, this is the real deal.

    Some of you may have heard me talk about the Torotrak gearbox. Well new development are a foot in an area even I am surprised at.

    A recent release from Torotrak

    Torotrak PLC
    05 June 2007


    Torotrak and Xtrac transmission expertise will help F1 teams develop new, highly
    efficient, mechanical kinetic energy recovery systems ... technology also
    applicable to road cars

    5 June 2007

    Toroidal traction drive specialist Torotrak plc and vehicle transmission design
    and manufacturing company Xtrac Ltd are pleased to announce that on 4 June 2007
    they entered into a licence agreement to enable Xtrac to develop highly
    efficient and compact continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) for use in the
    new kinetic energy recovery systems (KERS) proposed for Formula One ('F1') motor
    racing.

    In 2009, F1 is introducing new rules that will lower the environmental impact of
    the sport. Part of this is to recover deceleration energy that can be stored for
    acceleration. Xtrac will exploit Torotrak's full-toroidal traction drive
    technology for use in kinetic energy recovery systems within the motorsport
    industry, to assist its customers in meeting these new obligations.

    Commenting on the co-operation between the two companies, Peter Digby, managing
    director of Xtrac, said: 'The transfer of world-class transmission technology
    from Torotrak, combined with the added value of Xtrac's expertise in the design
    and manufacture of transmissions for motorsport - and with clear potential to
    feed the resulting technical solution back into mainstream automotive use - is a
    good example of what I believe FIA President Max Mosley had in mind when he
    announced that Formula One should embrace an energy efficient future and open up
    the world of motorsport to new manufacturers'.

    Dick Elsy, Chief Executive at Torotrak, added: 'We are delighted to be working
    with Xtrac on this exciting new application of our transmission technology, to
    provide a highly efficient KERS solution for initial application in motorsport,
    but with a clear opportunity to apply the system in mainstream road cars to
    provide performance, economy and greenhouse gas emission benefits.'

    Background

    Some of the new KERS systems under development will be mechanically based and
    will utilise a flywheel to recuperate, store and subsequently discharge a moving
    vehicle's kinetic energy, which is otherwise wasted when the vehicle is
    decelerated. The kinetic energy is stored during a braking manoeuvre and is then
    released back into the driveline as the vehicle accelerates.

    The toroidal traction drive variator, being developed with Torotrak and using
    Torotrak's patented technology, is a central element in these mechanical
    flywheel-variator KERS systems as it provides a continuously variable ratio
    connection between the flywheel and the vehicle driveline, via the vehicle's
    gearbox. Torotrak has granted a licence to Xtrac to design, manufacture,
    assemble and distribute components or complete variator systems, which
    incorporate Torotrak's technology, to its F1 customers.

    The innovative combination of a Torotrak variator - providing mechanical
    efficiency that should be in excess of 90 per cent - with a flywheel of advanced
    construction, results in a highly efficient and compact energy storage system.
    Whilst Xtrac will supply variator units to its customers, the flywheels for
    these energy recovery systems are being developed separately by the Formula 1
    teams themselves and their specialist suppliers. Torotrak will provide the
    control system expertise.

    Torotrak and Xtrac believe that the variator-flywheel solution provides a
    significantly more compact, efficient, lighter and environmentally-friendly
    solution than the traditional alternative of electrical-battery systems.

    'The variator weighs less than 5kg in these applications and provides a high
    level of mechanical efficiency, enabling the overall mass of the mechanical KERS
    systems to be minimised,' says Chris Greenwood, technology director at Torotrak.
    'This mechanical efficiency, combined with the variator's ability to change
    ratio very rapidly, helps to optimise flywheel performance.'

    The two companies consider that the system is applicable to other motor sports
    and everyday vehicles and see the potential for wider applications -
    particularly on high-performance road cars - as an aid to performance and also
    as a means of developing future products with reduced CO2 emission levels.

    The system supports the current trend in powertrain design for engine
    downsizing, by providing a means of boosting acceleration, overall performance
    and economy independently of the vehicle's engine and without the need for
    complex electrical-battery hybrid architectures.

    A CVT-controlled flywheel is particularly suited to stop-start driving
    situations when real-world fuel economy is often at its worst. In these
    conditions, the variator-flywheel system can assist the launch of a vehicle
    which has slowed down or come to a standstill, by utilising the kinetic energy
    stored in the flywheel. In heavily congested traffic, where a car is frequently
    stopped and restarted, the system can help alleviate the heavy fuel consumption
    and emissions of greenhouse gasses normally associated with these conditions.

    For the F1 applications, the stored kinetic energy can be applied by the driver
    on demand whenever required - at a rate and for a time period set by the
    regulations - to boost performance for rapid acceleration. The device is
    particularly beneficial when exiting corners or for tricky overtaking
    manoeuvres.

    'The mechanical efficiency, compactness and mass of the variator system is
    critical since it directly influences the size and the ability to package such
    as system into an F1 car, or into a road vehicle,' says Adrian Moore, technical
    director at Xtrac. 'The size, torque capacity and response of the unit is
    critical to take the full advantage of having a flywheel KERS system.'
    When this is released it will be the biggest thing in motoring history since the rubber tyre.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  2. #2
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    This is a publishment from Citywire

    Torotrak gains traction on fuel-saving F1 transmission aiming for street

    Published: 12:50 Tuesday 05 June 2007
    By Colin McClelland, Shares Editor
    Shares in vehicle transmission company Torotrak revved up after it announced a technology licensing deal for F1 cars to save energy, an innovation that could one day be transferred to sedans in the street.
    The deal’s financial details were not disclosed, but it would see Torotrak license its technology to Xtrac to develop F1 car gear boxes using a kinetic energy recovery system.
    The technology relates to F1 regulations proposed for 2009 to make the sport less polluting. The aim is to capture energy during braking and apply it to acceleration.
    There could be spin-offs into regular cars, Xtrac’s managing director Peter Digby said, citing ‘clear potential to feed the resulting technical solution back into mainstream automotive use’.
    The aim would be to use the technology as a performance aid and also to help develop future cars with reduced CO2 emission levels. It could be most beneficial in the start-stop of congested traffic when miles per gallon ratings dive and exhaust chokes the air.
    In racing the driver can store the energy then apply it as needed. ‘The device is particularly beneficial when exiting corners or for tricky overtaking manoeuvres,’ the companies said.
    Shares in Torotrak added 4.5p or about 10% to 46p, valuing the £54,55 million.
    One investor in Torotrak is Blue Oar Securities, which received a glowing endorsement by Chris Blackhurst in the Evening Standard yesterday for being a broker that takes a hard, critical look at the companies it backs.
    Blue Oar bought into Torotrak at 1.29% recently, although the same group held a slightly smaller stake when it was known as Corporate Synergy.
    Other investors include Barclays Stockbrokers with about 9.7%, Squaregain at about 7.7%, Waterhouse with about 7%.
    Cavendish has about 3.4% and Hargreaves Lansdown has about 2.55%
    The Torotrak technology uses a flywheel to store and subsequently discharge a moving vehicle's kinetic energy, which is otherwise wasted when the vehicle is decelerated. The kinetic energy is stored during a braking manoeuvre and is then released back into the driveline as the vehicle accelerates.
    Torotrak’s contribution is the toroidal traction drive variator to provide a continuously variable ratio connection between the flywheel and the vehicle driveline through the vehicle’s gearbox.
    Torotrak has granted a licence to Xtrac to design, manufacture, assemble and distribute components or complete variator systems, which incorporate Torotrak’s technology, to its F1 customers.
    Torotrak and Xtrac believe that the variator-flywheel solution provides a significantly more compact, efficient, lighter and environmentally-friendly solution than the traditional alternative of electrical-battery systems, the companies said.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  3. #3
    Registered User AndyBG's Avatar
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    Way to complicated for street, IMHO... at least for now...

    But we will see, same things were told about hibryd cars to...

  4. #4
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Trust me, this is only months away from production in a family car. The reason it has been so long coming is they were getting all the patents in place in all the countries, IT'S THAT BIG and all the major companies have been testing it over the last 3 years.

    I close friend has already sample a demo in a Rover I think and the reports back were it was amazing, you can travel at 70+mph and the engine can show only 1200rpm. But the real advantage it has is in acceleration where the gearbox matches the peak torque of the engine instead of reving all over the place like a normal box.
    Search and you will find the truth.

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    Moderator Ruergard's Avatar
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    Interesting, very interesting... seems like THE gearbox. Thanks for sharing!

  6. #6
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Yeah I know, I have had shares in this company for over 6 years now and when they finally start production these will go sky high. The most interesting thing about the gear is the multiple applications for it, in farming the gearbox can produce up to 70% of it's engine torque to anything attached to the tractor, in a normal tractor that percentage is more like 30%. In public transport the gearbox provide measurable fuel savings over the standard automatic in buses and in commercial to lorries the are smaller engines can pull greater loads. There is to be a version for SUV etc which if provide greater control over the engine for off-road use plus greater acceleration and fuel savings, something every SUV requires.

    But of interest to us the what difference it will give the hi-performance car and here we will see better performance with much greater fuel economy.

    Exciting times ahead and I only hope that Audi are on the band wagon as I know BMW have been there from the very start.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  7. #7
    Moderator Ruergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Yeah I know, I have had shares in this company for over 6 years now and when they finally start production these will go sky high. The most interesting thing about the gear is the multiple applications for it, in farming the gearbox can produce up to 70% of it's engine torque to anything attached to the tractor, in a normal tractor that percentage is more like 30%. In public transport the gearbox provide measurable fuel savings over the standard automatic in buses and in commercial to lorries the are smaller engines can pull greater loads. There is to be a version for SUV etc which if provide greater control over the engine for off-road use plus greater acceleration and fuel savings, something every SUV requires.

    But of interest to us the what difference it will give the hi-performance car and here we will see better performance with much greater fuel economy.

    Exciting times ahead and I only hope that Audi are on the band wagon as I know BMW have been there from the very start.

    Lucky man!

    Sounds just awesome, can't wait!
    Agree on that one, Audi HAS to be there. Otherwise they are hugely behind.. :/

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    I'm sorry I cannot share your excitement.
    To me it sounds like a normal CVT gearbox with a hybrid-/electro-engine-thingy?!

    Can you tell why it's so superb - also compared to DSG or Zeroshift-transmission?

    Thanks in advance

  9. #9
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geist View Post
    I'm sorry I cannot share your excitement.
    To me it sounds like a normal CVT gearbox with a hybrid-/electro-engine-thingy?!

    Can you tell why it's so superb - also compared to DSG or Zeroshift-transmission?

    Thanks in advance
    There is parts of the design and application that are similar to a CVT box but CVT is much more limiting plus their torque capacity is also limiting. IVT ratio is infinite, so while a CVT can maintain it's gear ratio to match maximum torque the period it can do this is limited unlike the Torotak design which can match it for ever and that equals maximum acceleration, plus the design can cope with what ever amount of torque is thrown at it.

    DSG is great but like all boxes with fixed ratios they are only efficient when these ratios match the torque producted by the engine. Also DSG changes gear in 0.2ms where as IVT doesn't change gear so there is 0.0ms of lose.

    A question to those geeky boys there know about gearboxes.
    In acceleration, how much time does a engine and gearbox stay in that sweet spot of torque?

    I only know a small amount of the technology and most of my experience comes second-hand through a friend who has actually drove a test example of the gearbox and his opinion is that it the next biggest thing to hit the motor industry since the gearbox was invented.
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  10. #10
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    This is to show how close the new Torotak gearbox and regeneration technology is to being introduced in to F1 racing. And by the way, Torotak can make it's gearbox act like a semi-automatic if required.

    Statement from Car about the Ferrari Mille Chili

    No. From 2009, F1 cars will be able to regenerate and re-use 60kW of power. The same system will be adapted for road cars from 2012. A battery and electric motor will briefly deliver a slug of torque to the rear wheels to cover the gap when shifting. By then, shift times could be as low as 30 milliseconds; even the current F430 takes 150ms.

    The result will be shifts as seamless as a twin-clutch, DSG gearbox, which Ferrari is also developing but remains sceptical about. Including an electric drive element would be a huge leap for Ferrari; engineers won’t speculate about developments beyond 2012, but this system could be the precursor to a performance-oriented full hybrid.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  11. #11
    Registered User Payne's Avatar
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    Looks very interesting

  12. #12
    Moderator Benman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Trust me, this is only months away from production in a family car.
    Leadie, very exciting tech, but there is no way it will actually be in a production car within months... a couple years maybe, but not a couple of months. Manufactures would need far longer lead times...

    But you're right about having the engine in that "sweet spot". In fact, this application would be the cat's meow in a liter bike! My goodness, it'd be hard to stay on the darn thing!

    Ben
    Einstein once said, "I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details."
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  13. #13
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Ben,

    I'm not sure if they have considered bikes yet, but they will. As for it being in production in months, if I had said years that might make people think it was 5+ years away which it isn't. It has been tested in some brands (sorry no names) for over two years now and the only reason it isn't in production already is that they are trying to tie-up as many countries with patents as possible before it makes it first public appearance in a car/suv, so revolutionary is the technology.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  14. #14
    Moderator Benman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Ben...
    Read you loud and clear...

    If you wouldn't mind PMing me the ticker #, I'd be interested in checking the activity over the last few years...

    Ben
    Einstein once said, "I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details."
    Ron Paul Fan

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