New M3 no match for RS4/RS5.

[Iceman]

The new M3 have a ultra light 420 hp V8 engine and a Carbon fibre roof and still weigh 1655 Kg.
The RS4 have also a 420 hp V8 + Quattro and weigh 1650 Kg.
If Audi put a RS4+ or leight RS5 on the street the M3 will have no chance what so ever IMHO.

Hans.

[Thrives]

Interesting data points you have there ...

are you sure that that the new M3 will weigh that much?

[Leadfoot]

Hans,

Alas we have forgot to take away the 75kgs that BMW add for driver etc. in their figures, but even so chances are there won't be that much between them in an overall road test.

I do reckon the with what I have been told regarding the RS5 engine specs that it will take an M3 CSL to have a chance of working with it and that only with Quattro GbmH's present thinking, we all thought that the RS6 will have 520~530hp and we are now looking at 585hp, the RS5 we reckon will come with 440hp but if the RS6 is anything to go by then expect 480hp.

[sticky]

Interesting data points you have there ...

are you sure that that the new M3 will weigh that much?

He doesn't know what he is talking about and the M3 isn't on the streets yet. Pretty obvious that the M3 will be lighter than the RS4 considering it gained 50 pounds over the E46. IMHO his honest opinion is worthless.

[sticky]

Hans,

Alas we have forgot to take away the 75kgs that BMW add for driver etc. in their figures, but even so chances are there won't be that much between them in an overall road test.

I do reckon the with what I have been told regarding the RS5 engine specs that it will take an M3 CSL to have a chance of working with it and that only with Quattro GbmH's present thinking, we all thought that the RS6 will have 520~530hp and we are now looking at 585hp, the RS5 we reckon will come with 440hp but if the RS6 is anything to go by then expect 480hp.

Maybe we should deal in fact not in fiction? A lot of people heard the R8 would have more hp. A lot of people heard there would be a DSG in it. A lot of people heard the S5 would have more hp. A lot of people heard this and that. How can you go by the RS6 when the RS6 isn't even confirmed?

[Iceman]

Interesting data points you have there ...

are you sure that that the new M3 will weigh that much?

It states the EU weight of the vehicle is 1650 kg.
But on the footnote you will notice the following definition of EU weight:
1. 90% of fuel tank
2. 68kg passenger
3. 7 kg load.

The petrol tank is ±63 litre, so 90% is 56.7 litre
Petrol weighs 0.737kg/litre @ 16 degrees C is 41.8kg
If you remove the weight of the Petrol, Passenger and Cargo 1650-(42+68+7)= 1533 kg
Curb weight is 1533+42 is 1575kg > depending on the fuel amount of 90%.

Hans.

[Leadfoot]

Maybe we should deal in fact not in fiction? A lot of people heard the R8 would have more hp. A lot of people heard there would be a DSG in it. A lot of people heard the S5 would have more hp. A lot of people heard this and that. How can you go by the RS6 when the RS6 isn't even confirmed?

Was the same thing not said by some of you BMW guys on this very forum about the M3 getting 440~450hp based on past experience with their over the magic 100hp/L from their old M3 engine but what did it end up with.

I agree about the S5, I for one thought is would have had more than a 10hp gain, past experience showed the S4v8 getting close to the RS4 Mk1 in power only 30hp down so we predicted the same might happen this time round which would have meant the S5 getting something like 380hp but this wasn't the case. I think the reason being that we were guessing on the normal 1~2years of the previous versions, instead the S5 came out right away.

As for the RS6's power, I trust the person who gave me the figures and unless he is being feed BS which I very much doubt then the figures are correct and like-wise the lap time of the ring which will give me a great laugh watching you guys try and work out an argument as to why it's so much quicker than the M5.

[sticky]

Was the same thing not said by some of you BMW guys on this very forum about the M3 getting 440~450hp based on past experience with their over the magic 100hp/L from their old M3 engine but what did it end up with.

I agree about the S5, I for one thought is would have had more than a 10hp gain, past experience showed the S4v8 getting close to the RS4 Mk1 in power only 30hp down so we predicted the same might happen this time round which would have meant the S5 getting something like 380hp but this wasn't the case. I think the reason being that we were guessing on the normal 1~2years of the previous versions, instead the S5 came out right away.

As for the RS6's power, I trust the person who gave me the figures and unless he is being feed BS which I very much doubt then the figures are correct and like-wise the lap time of the ring which will give me a great laugh watching you guys try and work out an argument as to why it's so much quicker than the M5.

I don't speak for others but how many hp per liter is 420 from a 4.0 liter? Puts it right in that zone doesn't it? Once we see dynos I bet you will find it is very close to 440 hp.

If the RS6 has a twin turbo v10 the power levels will be nothing but impressive. What if it doesn't have two turbos? Let's not jinx it.

[Leadfoot]

I don't speak for others but how many hp per liter is 420 from a 4.0 liter? Puts it right in that zone doesn't it? Once we see dynos I bet you will find it is very close to 440 hp.

If the RS6 has a twin turbo v10 the power levels will be nothing but impressive. What if it doesn't have two turbos? Let's not jinx it.

I was pure working out what the increase would be from the old 3.2L M3 with 343hp to the new 4.0L M3 with 420hp, lots here said it would be putting out a lot more especially with lot the F1 technology that is meant to be in it. Don't get me wrong, the new M3 engine is a very impressive piece of kit, but I wouldn't said it's that much if any better than the RS4 engine.

As for the RS6, yes we will see.

[Leadfoot]

It states the EU weight of the vehicle is 1650 kg.
But on the footnote you will notice the following definition of EU weight:
1. 90% of fuel tank
2. 68kg passenger
3. 7 kg load.

The petrol tank is ±63 litre, so 90% is 56.7 litre
Petrol weighs 0.737kg/litre @ 16 degrees C is 41.8kg
If you remove the weight of the Petrol, Passenger and Cargo 1650-(42+68+7)= 1533 kg
Curb weight is 1533+42 is 1575kg > depending on the fuel amount of 90%.

Hans.

Hans,

I was under the impression that Audi didn't include the above things in their figure was this wrong of me?

[Lateknight]

Oh dear. Seems there is a bit more confusion about weights again.

BMW M3 unladen weight is 1580kg (source WCF)

BMW M3 EU weight is 1655kg (EU weight - adds 75kg - dont ask, it just does)

Audi RS4 unladen weight is 1650kg (source : http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwa...che_daten.html) Leergewicht means unladen.

Therefore EU weight for RS4 is 1725kg.

Both cars in basic form without additional optional extras.

BMW is lighter by 70kg -or about 1 person- (unless your a bloater)

Consider BMWs use of exotic materials and the Audi has 4WD and is a 4 door saloon (not a 2door saloon/coupe), thats still not a lot of weight difference.

I expect any forthcoming RS5 to be of similar (maybe a little less) weight than the S5. So it will still be heavier than the M3 by about 30/40kg.

[Leadfoot]

Lateknight,

I reckon Audi are through Quattro GmbH getting more and more serious about their performance cars being more than just hi-speed Autobahn machines. They have seen how M division and AMG have improved the public opinion of the rest of the range, increasing the standard models sales because of the media coverage the top models are receiving.

Audi wants and needs this to achieve the sales target it has set itself for 2015, the percentage of M3 sold in ratio to the rest of the 3 series coupe range is very high, much higher than all other brands and this is solely down to media coverage though good reviews. Audi has started with the RS4 Mk2 to take this seriously and all the hi-performance models seems to have two underlining goals, weight and weight balance. The next RS5 will improve on both counts over the S5, quite possible improving the weight by as much as 60Kgs and weight balance by another 1~2 percent.

The M3 has had it too easy for far to long but no longer, the new improved Audi RS range has arrived with a vengeance.

[chiphead]

The Rs5 will be expensive. I'm betting at least $10k USD over the M3. At this point, Audi is pricing itself out of contention. Even with 500+hp what's the point? A Carrera S will run circles around it.

[Iceman]

The most inportend thing to do for Audi is loose weight for the RS5, at leased 200 Kg on the S5's weight.
Futher introduce Valve-lift and give it 450 hp.

Hans.

[Leadfoot]

Hans,

You are ever the optimist. The only way Audi could make the RS5 lose 200kgs would be to leave out the engine.

For starters BMW as used carbon fibre for it's roof in the M3 and it's only dropped 20kgs off the 335i's weight. Now when you consider that the 335i is using a iron block and two turbos with the piping it makes you wondered where all the weight saving went in to the M3, heck the engine must already weigh less than 20kgs to start with.

So I ask you how in the heck will Audi lose 200kgs?

There is no doubt that manual seats are a sure thing just like the RS4, but there is already quite a lot of alloy already in the front of the A5 to help with the weight balance, adding more alloy to the rear will only change the balance for the worse. I doubt Audi will adopt the Carbon Fibre roof that BMW are using and losing sound proofing will only alienate a lot of customers that choice it because they don't want to go down the noisy route of 997 etc. I think at best 50~60kgs is a possibility but no more than that.

As for the power increase there is still a possibility that Audi might go down the forced induction route for the RS5 or maybe the v10. As yet nothing is set in stone with this car, the launch time window is what will decide which engine will be chosen, if the date is 2008 then chances are it will be the treaked RS4 engine but if it's 2009/10 then anything is a possibility. Either way I agree that 450hp is more than likely the minimum power we will see from this car.

[PeterJohn]

The M3 will be a fast car. And I'm sure BMW will try to make it faster than the RS4, and will succeed. There's more involved then weight/power ratio. Then Audi will respond with an even faster car. So on, so forth... it's what competition is about.

Painting BMWs as loosers doesn't help Audis image. It's not honorable to beat a weaker opponent. If you respect BMW for making some of the best sports cars, and then make a better one, then you can say you've achieved something.

The advantage that BMW has had for a long time is that even the entry level models are designed as sportscars. My heavy, surprizingly economical cruiser can cut corners like a housefly. All BMW has to do the make an ///M is drop in a big engine. Audi neglected this for a long time. The current doctrine is that you can be all you can be if you work hard enough, but the reality is that you need good genes to reach the top. If one leg is shorten than the other, you might be able to train yourself to run above avarage, but you will never in your life beat the world record. With the engine hanging over the front, Audi is not genetically blessed.

Audi is changing its ways, and building 'sports' into the chassis, instead of retrofitting it. However, the RS4 is old school Audi. They've done a great job with it. It is as sharp as the e46 M3, which is nearly fysically impossible, considering there's a V8 where the radiator should be, and a radiator where the number plate should be. Audi has a crack engineering department, no doubt. But the e46 was ready for the museum when the RS4 came out, so it's not an honorable victory. The new BMW will take the next evolutionairy step(s), and be faster. Period.
Maybe not the allrounder, if the marketeers demand another videogamesque-gadget mobile like the M5, but faster nontheless.

The RS5 is a different animal. It is build like a BMW. A genetic sportscar. But it is bigger than the e92. It's almost the size of a 6series, yet it will get 3series engines. Good for allrounder-ness, but not an advantage is terms of laptimes. BMW is no stranger to saving weight, and the e92 is a better platform to do that than the S5, simply b/c it is a smaller car. So I doubt that the RS5 will dramatically kick the bimmers ass, unless they fit it with an engine from the Quattro GmbH A6 program.

[Iceman]

The 200 Kg is ment sarcastic mate.
I know it's not possible to loose 200 Kg on the weight of the S5.
Futher the V10 will not fit in the engine bay of the A5 body IMHO.
I have take a closer look and there is not much room in front of the V8 engine.
I doubt that they can get the V10 in.
It will be a RS4 V8 engine for the RS5 IMHO with 420-450 hp and i doubt they will go the Bi-turbo way for the RS5.

Hans.

[Leadfoot]

The RS5 is a different animal. It is build like a BMW. A genetic sportscar. But it is bigger than the e92. It's almost the size of a 6series, yet it will get 3series engines. Good for allrounder-ness, but not an advantage is terms of laptimes. BMW is no stranger to saving weight, and the e92 is a better platform to do that than the S5, simply b/c it is a smaller car. So I doubt that the RS5 will dramatically kick the bimmers ass, unless they fit it with an engine from the Quattro GmbH A6 program.

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwa...che_daten.html
http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/neuwa...messungen.html

http://www.connectxt.co.uk/m3_coupe_catalogue.pdf

These links to both cars prove that apart from width, the two cars are all but identical in size, in fact the 3 series has the slightly bigger wheelbase. But overall the A5 has a small 60mm greater frontal overhang, not something that will really hurt the handling on entry to the corner and with the benefit of quattro will in fact allowing better grip while in the corner and better traction exiting out of the corner and with it's potential power increase over the M3 will again help it down the straight in which it will be accelerating sooner because of the advantage of quattro.

I personally don't think the M3 or 3 series coupe in general is a bad in fact it's more than likely the best rwd coupe of it's size, but like all here on this site who own or have owned a quattro car will agree that Audi make an even better one. You likely said what Audi achieved with it's nose heavy design that was the RS4 is bordering on unearthly so what can they not achieve when these restrictions are no longer in the way.

The mind boggles.:trash: