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Thread: R8 competition heats up.

  1. #55
    Registered User tazsura's Avatar
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    I don't hold high hopes for the LF-A. It 'looks' good (first time i've said that about a lexus...) but i would be really suprised if Lexus nail the sports car seen. Don't know of all the offerings in the US, but the SC430 was the closest thing to a sports car from Lexus here in the UK. It was crap. Wasn't a cruiser...wasn't a sports car. Most people talked about it's Stereo, and that was it!

    Steering feel, vocal attributes, real-feel....all traits that have not been seen in ANY lexus before.

    On paper it looks good, I just doubt if they can relay this to the road. IMHO

    Taz
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  2. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazsura View Post
    Leadie,

    'Now, coming back to TOPIC!' - This wasn't intended for you...it was for me! Your reply to my post was too quick (!)and i didn't get my 2nd post in before yours. Sorry for any confusion buddy!

    And I know where your coming from too, hence my response to previous commets about the Gallardo, M5 et al. Some things just need to be said!

    Bang on with the REAL R8 rivals. They offer the complete package while offering subtle differences to one another. The F430 and Gallardo are obviously the more overtly sporting of the group, while the Vantage and 997 offer greater versatility. I can't wait to see how the R8 compares. I really do feel that this car is going to be much quicker than figures are suggesting. I know i keep going on about it..but the engine from the RS4 is just an absolute peach...and it is engine is perfect for the R8. Much the way the Roush designed V12 is the defining piece in the Mclaren F1, IMO the V8 in the R8 will be to.

    P.S...that 276BHP rule is a joke and should be scrapped...no way are the NSX et al producing ONLY 276BHP.

    Taz
    The 276 agreement was scrapped, they no longer adhere to it.

    Roush designed V12 for the Mclaren??? BMW ended up being the choice for the motor manufacturer for th McLaren F1 when Gordon Murray couldn't get Honda.

  3. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazsura View Post
    Last one from me on the 'off-topic' with-in this topic! I promise....

    I'm sorry, im sorry, but i just don't understand where this CLEAR Advantage reasoning the F430 has over the Gallardo comes from. Sticky, you keep using the term 'bloated'...in what context? Forgive me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the F430 have a kerb weight of 1450Kg and the Gallardo 1470Kg (ish)? Considering it has 2 more cylinders and 4WD...this is not bad at all. Yes the F430 does 'feel' lighter on its feet, but also much much less assured with its nervous rear end. Around a track the F430 has not been proved to be that much faster, and on everyday roads and day-to-day driving the Gallardo trumps it. It suffers minimnal understeer and is planted in all conditions. The only complaint coming from testers seems to be initial brake pedal feel.

    As for 50/50 weight distribution...hmm. I agree Front engined RWD configuration is very good. But if 50/50 is the way forward, why does the Maser Quattroporte lap the EVO track faster than the M5 even though its Kerb weight is 1940Kg and it doesn't have the much-hyped SMG AND is down on power. ? Maybe the 46:54 distribution of the Maser is the way forward.....

    The E90 M3 Vs B7 RS4 WON'T be, like you suggested, the B6 S4 Vs E46 M3 contest. The RS is completely different to the S4. The E90 M3 will be fantastic IMO. It don't really see how it can fail to be. I do however hope its V8 is like the M5 V10.....because then the V8 in the RS4 will already trump it in terms of sound...NO CONTEST. The BM V10 sounds horrid....and is no contest for the vocal delights of the Lambo V10 or the Porsche V10.

    Straight line test may be the be-all in the US...but here (in the UK) when the roads get twisty and both driver ability and handling come into focus, the merits of a sure-footed, well resolved car come to the fore-front.

    I'm done on this topic now.....

    Taz
    I don't know what weight measurement they use for the euro weight, curb, with driver, or dry. The weight I go by is what they measure in the states putting the gallardo at 3500 vs. the F430's 3200. The gallardo isn't "bloated" unless it is compared to the F430. Cars are getting so heavy that 3500 doesn't look that bad, it is about what the 997 turbo weighs in at. However, porsche has lighter options.

    The sound is in the RS4's court, but we need to wait and see what crank BMW went for in the M3 V8 which will have great affect on the sound. Who knows how it will sound, but the RS4 does sound great.

    The straight line isn't everything it is just the easiest aspect to compare. I am sure the R8 will be spectacular in the turns and with feedback as if it feels anything like the gallardo then it will be a winner. The issue is if it is outgunned in power at that 100k mark.

  4. #58
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    The 276 agreement was scrapped, they no longer adhere to it.

    Roush designed V12 for the Mclaren??? BMW ended up being the choice for the motor manufacturer for th McLaren F1 when Gordon Murray couldn't get Honda.
    Roush are one of the top engine consultants so tazsura may be right, BMW might have enlisted the help of Roush to develop the engine like they do for lots of companies including F1 teams.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  5. #59
    Registered User tazsura's Avatar
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    Yes, and it was BMW's Paul Rosche who was in charge of the engine to be precise.

    Taz:blush:
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  6. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazsura View Post
    Yes, and it was BMW's Paul Rosche who was in charge of the engine to be precise.

    Taz:blush:
    This is correct, there is a big difference between Roush and Rosche.

    Roush did not have anything to do with the BMW motor.

  7. #61
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    This is correct, there is a big difference between Roush and Rosche.

    Roush did not have anything to do with the BMW motor.
    sticky,

    How sure are you that you're right?

    BMW, Porsche, Ferrari all of them use outside help when designing things, they all use gearboxes made by outside sources, the electrics are sourced, the suspension systems are sourced, why does it sound so outrageous for BMW to use an outside source to help develop an engine, Audi used Cosworth with the RS4 Mk1 engine prior to acquiring them.

    I know you think very highly of BMW engineering and I agree it's up there with the best, but why are you so sure that Tazsura isn't correct.

    Surely there is someone on the forum that can shed a little light on this debate.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  8. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    sticky,

    How sure are you that you're right?

    BMW, Porsche, Ferrari all of them use outside help when designing things, they all use gearboxes made by outside sources, the electrics are sourced, the suspension systems are sourced, why does it sound so outrageous for BMW to use an outside source to help develop an engine, Audi used Cosworth with the RS4 Mk1 engine prior to acquiring them.

    I know you think very highly of BMW engineering and I agree it's up there with the best, but why are you so sure that Tazsura isn't correct.

    Surely there is someone on the forum that can shed a little light on this debate.
    Rosche designed the E30 M3 motor and headed the engine development of the motorsport division. When Murray came to BMW asking for help with designing a motor for the McLaren F1, they set to work. The motor was a fully internal BMW design which was set to meet a certain weight and torque goal, which it exceeded. I have never heard of any external collaboration on the design of the motor. Roush does all kinds of work all over the world with many companies, but I have never heard their name in connection with BMW and the McLaren F1.

  9. #63
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    Rosche designed the E30 M3 motor and headed the engine development of the motorsport division. When Murray came to BMW asking for help with designing a motor for the McLaren F1, they set to work. The motor was a fully internal BMW design which was set to meet a certain weight and torque goal, which it exceeded. I have never heard of any external collaboration on the design of the motor. Roush does all kinds of work all over the world with many companies, but I have never heard their name in connection with BMW and the McLaren F1.
    All I was saying is one can't rule it out. The fact that they work with such famous name and in the F1 circles there is a likely hood that what Tazsura is saying maybe right. It won't make BMW work or the engine itself any less an achievement for BMW, I just find it amazing you dismiss it out of hand just because you haven't heard the name associated with BMW or McLaren, hell there is lots that both companies keep quiet from the general public, but just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    I say keep an open mind until there is proof otherwise.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  10. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    All I was saying is one can't rule it out. The fact that they work with such famous name and in the F1 circles there is a likely hood that what Tazsura is saying maybe right. It won't make BMW work or the engine itself any less an achievement for BMW, I just find it amazing you dismiss it out of hand just because you haven't heard the name associated with BMW or McLaren, hell there is lots that both companies keep quiet from the general public, but just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    I say keep an open mind until there is proof otherwise.
    Umm, I can't find anything anywhere of Roush working with BMW on the McLaren F1 motor. There are videos out there on McLaren, tons of fan pages, and pages from BMW motorsport themselves.

    Keeping an open mind is always the right thing to do but everyone knows BMW motorsport designed that motor, it is common knowledge. There is nothing out there connecting Roush in any form, how is that for proof? The only time Roush has been mentioned with BMW and development of the F1 motor has been in this thread. I don't know what proof to find as there is nothing out there to say, "Roush did not work on this motor," because there is no association and it has never been brought up. BMW motorsport created this V12, basing it on their existing V12 block from the 850csi. Of this, I am 100% certain.

    I am not dismissing it because I haven't heard the name associated, I am dismissing it because I have read many things on the McLaren F1 and the official McLaren book along with everything ever written on the motor doesn't mention Roush, only BMW Motorsport. That is why I dicount it, I don't know what else to say.

    Unless there is some secret agreement we all don't know about I suppose there is a chance. There is also a chance ferrari worked on the motor, ford, and chevrolet as well, we can't rule them out just in case.
    Last edited by sticky; January 13th, 2007 at 23:40.

  11. #65
    Registered User Lateknight's Avatar
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    I think there is a confusion here between Rosche and Roush (obviously)

    I'm with 'sticky' on this - Roush have nothing to do with the 6.1 ltr BMW designed engine used in the F1.
    Roush do modify Chrysler 6.1ltr Hemi engines, though.

    At best, it maybe the right thing to agree to disagree on this one.

  12. #66
    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Agreed, I was only making the point that I didn't have any knowledge otherwise so I couldn't rule it out of hand. The McLaren F1 has never interested me personally so my knowledge is limited to what the magazines has wrote on the subject. I know that the old M3 was meant to be half of it's block, but other than that, I know very little.

    I was keeping an open mind because I know of Roush's involvement in motorsport engine development in the same way as Cosworth is and I know that numerous companies have used their expertise, why not Roush's.
    Search and you will find the truth.

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