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Thread: R8 competition heats up.

  1. #19
    Moderator RXBG's Avatar
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    the F430 CS already exists

    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    What exactly does ferrari have to fear? Lambo needs to launch a more powerful gallardo to catch up to the current 430 and by that time ferrari will launch a challenge stradale version of the 430 that will again put them well ahead of the gallardo in performance.
    and it is a hardcore, non daily drive version of the basic car. same will be true of the gallardo sv. one cannot compare these cars to the basic versions they came from. a race version of the R8 could also be produced and that would be a fair comparison with the above cars.

    the bottom line is that the gallardo/R8 will soon face an ID crisis. and with porsche's say i would highly doubt that lambo will remain an audi owned company. lambo, believe it or not, is in danger of being sold........

    i do not know how audi plans to distinguish the V10 R8 from the gallardo. i do not suspect the gallardo will produce more than 550 hp in final form (the last expected updated before an all new model that is at least 3 years away b/c lambo R&D is now operating on it's own profits and sans audi funding). only diff between the two will be the more daily livability/comfort of the R8. (while achieving 9/10ths of the performance at a 50K minimum savings- which could buy you a heffner kit that will kill just about anything this side of a zonda)

    and finally, the V10 in the R8 is expected to be a high rev NA engine... iow- an RS4engine with two more cylinders. and not requiring a computer to release 100 more hp from it. that is scary brilliant stuff....and imo shall be a much superior engine to the one in the M5 and M6......
    Past- A4, TT, S4

    Present- R8 V10

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    Registered User Cale24's Avatar
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    @ Tazsura :

    Exactly. There seems to be a myth that the F430 is much faster, when in fact the lastest Gallardo SE is in fact quicker in a straight line, as well as around numerous race tracks (eg.EVO handling circuit). And the 997 GT3/ GT3 RS is faster than both on any track.

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    Registered User Leadfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cale24 View Post
    @ Tazsura :

    Exactly. There seems to be a myth that the F430 is much faster, when in fact the lastest Gallardo SE is in fact quicker in a straight line, as well as around numerous race tracks (eg.EVO handling circuit). And the 997 GT3/ GT3 RS is faster than both on any track.
    Well you do have to remember that sticky is believing BMW's Bull about 50/50 weight and rwd so why wouldn't he believe the hype about the Ferrari.
    Search and you will find the truth.

  4. #22
    Registered User Cale24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    Uh, one step at a time, the car isn't even here yet. And another thing, one limited production car doesn't make you the top manufacturer. Audi has a long way to go to catch BMW. The S6 barely matches up with a 550i. The 335i is spanking S4's. The new M3 is coming to lay the smack down on the RS4. Not to mention that BMW's will always be the purer driving car with RWD, less weight, and having weight in the right spot to begin with. You are getting way ahead of yourself, and supposedly BMW is at work on a mid engine car using a 5.5 liter of the M5 V10 which is the best V10 out (short of carrera GT.)

    The R8 is the first audi to not have all it's damn weight in the front.

    The car isnt even here yet, yes, and neither is this 'supposed' V10 BMW supercar, which is even further from reality and yet you discuss it? As for Audi having a long way to go to 'match' BMW, thats subjectivity if ever. Why does a B6 S4 lap the Top Gear race track faster than an E46 M3? Why does the latest RS4 beat an E60 M5 and M3 CSL(E46) while also getting stellar reviews, even from former BMW owners? The two companies both make great cars and will always one-up each other with a new model. The new E90 M3 4 door is the accurate match for the B7 RS4- lets see who wins (and the latter looks, from what I have seen of the M3, ten trillion times better). The S5/ RS5 will take care of the new M3 coupe, you can count on it. Concerning RWD vs Quattro, both have advatages of their own. And in case you didn't know, BMW xi/ xd models have their weight in the same place as an Audi, thanks to four wheel drive requirements. Plus, the R8 will thump an M6 anywhere, I'd bet my life on it.
    Long way to go? Before you know it, BMW will have a long way to go to catch up.

  5. #23
    Registered User Damienr8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Oh, please. The S6 as already won in two tests against the M5 never mind the 550i in Germany, ok it might not be as quick but if that's your only agrument then give up. The 335i against the S4 that will be interesting but it has beat the old M3 so if the 335i has the better of the S4 then too the M3. We will have to see if the new one can lay the smack down on the RS4 as you put it, but that will be short lived as the S5 will be out soon.

    To say the rwd is the purer driving experience, in what sport? Anytime awd has entered a form of motorsport it has destroyed the competition and been banned, that is apart from rallying which, oh yes is done on roads & forests. Your being suckered into BMW ads if you think 50/50 weight is the holy grail of what makes the pure driving experience, just ask Porsche about that.
    Nice reply Leadfood, I would have came up with something like this but I was fairly busy finishing up some work. And yes, 50/50 weight distribution is not the holy grail of what makes a driving experience pure. Its a culmination of more than just that one factor. Ahh, back to work. *Whip crack*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalmix View Post
    That info may be true, but BMWs have always been a bandwagon brand to me where as Audi has that extra touch. I rather pull up in a MTM modded RS4 than a 2008 M3 anyday. (downsyndrome looking tail lamps, lol...)
    True of course, if you want exclusivity audi has that over BMW to an extent. There are plusses and minuses to this, aftermarket, places to service, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Oh, please. The S6 as already won in two tests against the M5 never mind the 550i in Germany, ok it might not be as quick but if that's your only agrument then give up. The 335i against the S4 that will be interesting but it has beat the old M3 so if the 335i has the better of the S4 then too the M3. We will have to see if the new one can lay the smack down on the RS4 as you put it, but that will be short lived as the S5 will be out soon.

    To say the rwd is the purer driving experience, in what sport? Anytime awd has entered a form of motorsport it has destroyed the competition and been banned, that is apart from rallying which, oh yes is done on roads & forests. Your being suckered into BMW ads if you think 50/50 weight is the holy grail of what makes the pure driving experience, just ask Porsche about that.
    Audi got banned in their rally racing. Winning a race has nothing to do with how the car feels when YOU drive it. I really don't think you are taking your audi and entering it in a race everytime you hit the road. It should be very simple to understand that RWD is lighter, allows more power to the wheels, and allows easy power on correction.

    Porsche puts their motors in the back, so don't know how you are using this to bolster your argument. Out of manufacturers that put their motor in the front, BMW is the most consistent at keeping a perfect weight distribution. One thing we can agree on, Audi's understeer compared to BMW's due to the weight in the front.

    Did you read the tests where the S6 won? What pushed the S6 over? It certainly wasn't the performance as the M5 is in a different league. It was the price, when that is taken out of the equation, the S6 matches up better with a 550i and e550 than an M5 or E63. Those cars both are cheaper and offer up the same performance. You are insane if you think the S6 even holds a candle to the M5 or E63, the performance difference is worlds apart, and perfomance is what the M5 and E63 are about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tazsura View Post
    The current Gallardo gives a good fight to the F430 and is by no means out gunned enough to say it is an easy victory to the Fezza, and the uprated Lambo will no doubt move the game on further. As for a riposte to the Challenge Stradale, there has long been talk of an SV version of the Gallardo, and i'm sure that this would more than take the fight to the F430CS with less weight, more power and RWD. Just my two cents.

    Taz
    As it stands today, ferrari has the clear advantage. There was talk of an SV gallardo, nothing materialized. We know the challenge stradale of the 430 is coming for sure, that is the difference. The gallardo with 520 hp and shorter gearing (SE) still trails very far behind and is bloated in comparison. The challenge stradale will be even lighter, and if it is anything like the last one, the best driving experience short of the supercars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RXBG View Post
    and it is a hardcore, non daily drive version of the basic car. same will be true of the gallardo sv. one cannot compare these cars to the basic versions they came from. a race version of the R8 could also be produced and that would be a fair comparison with the above cars.

    the bottom line is that the gallardo/R8 will soon face an ID crisis. and with porsche's say i would highly doubt that lambo will remain an audi owned company. lambo, believe it or not, is in danger of being sold........

    i do not know how audi plans to distinguish the V10 R8 from the gallardo. i do not suspect the gallardo will produce more than 550 hp in final form (the last expected updated before an all new model that is at least 3 years away b/c lambo R&D is now operating on it's own profits and sans audi funding). only diff between the two will be the more daily livability/comfort of the R8. (while achieving 9/10ths of the performance at a 50K minimum savings- which could buy you a heffner kit that will kill just about anything this side of a zonda)

    and finally, the V10 in the R8 is expected to be a high rev NA engine... iow- an RS4engine with two more cylinders. and not requiring a computer to release 100 more hp from it. that is scary brilliant stuff....and imo shall be a much superior engine to the one in the M5 and M6......
    Lambo is in danger of being sold? According to who? At least provide a source don't just pull things out of thin air.

    The heffner kit? It is over 50,000 dollars! No one is going to buy that. It requires new internals, doesn't work correctly with e-gear, and requires months of labor. To remove it later would be impossible. Not only that, it takes the car to low 11's at 128. Nothing short of a zonda will touch it? Sorry, 997 turbo's are surpassing that with BOLT ON'S, not even going to mention the Z06.

    Isn't the motor in the gallardo a high rev NA 10? Why would the R8 get a better v10 than the gallardo which is what it would take to match up to BMW's v10?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cale24 View Post
    @ Tazsura :

    Exactly. There seems to be a myth that the F430 is much faster, when in fact the lastest Gallardo SE is in fact quicker in a straight line, as well as around numerous race tracks (eg.EVO handling circuit). And the 997 GT3/ GT3 RS is faster than both on any track.
    What? M5's are matching up with the SE's, what are you talking about? The SE can't catch the F430 it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot View Post
    Well you do have to remember that sticky is believing BMW's Bull about 50/50 weight and rwd so why wouldn't he believe the hype about the Ferrari.
    Maybe you should do your research and come back to the discussion when you are well enough informed to carry it on? You don't need to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cale24 View Post
    The car isnt even here yet, yes, and neither is this 'supposed' V10 BMW supercar, which is even further from reality and yet you discuss it? As for Audi having a long way to go to 'match' BMW, thats subjectivity if ever. Why does a B6 S4 lap the Top Gear race track faster than an E46 M3? Why does the latest RS4 beat an E60 M5 and M3 CSL(E46) while also getting stellar reviews, even from former BMW owners? The two companies both make great cars and will always one-up each other with a new model. The new E90 M3 4 door is the accurate match for the B7 RS4- lets see who wins (and the latter looks, from what I have seen of the M3, ten trillion times better). The S5/ RS5 will take care of the new M3 coupe, you can count on it. Concerning RWD vs Quattro, both have advatages of their own. And in case you didn't know, BMW xi/ xd models have their weight in the same place as an Audi, thanks to four wheel drive requirements. Plus, the R8 will thump an M6 anywhere, I'd bet my life on it.
    Long way to go? Before you know it, BMW will have a long way to go to catch up.
    Why does the S4 lap the top gear test track faster? BECAUSE THAT TRACK IS ALWAYS WET. Hello, they are in England. I had an e46 m3, S4's don't come close. The B6 S4 weighs more, puts out less power to the wheels, and has worse weight distribution. What, the car defy's the laws of physics?

    I mentioned BMW's proposed car in response to a post where the person was mentioning a proposed vehicle as well. Reading comprehension...

    The RS4 is a stellar car, I never said it wasn't. All audi's are stellar cars, I think you are missing my point. The RS4 is boat loads of fun to drive, but the M5 is much faster. Around a track, the RS4 has a good chance to win depending on the track (tighter advantage audi, longer straights, M5.) As far as E90 M3 vs. B7 RS4 the smart mans money is on the M3 as if the battle is anything like the B6 S4 vs. E46 M3 it is an easy BMW victory. 7 speed SMG plus v8 version of the M5 v10? Bye, bye RS4.

    The R8 will trump the M6 in all aspects? I will buy you a drink if this is the case as I am on the list for the R8 and would love nothing more. It isn't going to beat the M6 in a straight line race or on the top end, come on, it would have to beat the gallardo to do so. Around a track of course it will win, this is a given it weighs much less and has the weight where it should be.

  13. #31
    Registered User Cale24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    What? M5's are matching up with the SE's, what are you talking about? The SE can't catch the F430 it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan.

    I assume you are referring to the rolling start video's posted on the M5board? Granted, once both cars are rolling, in a straight line the Gallardo pulled barely a car length on the M5. This may have to do with 4-wheel drive bogging the car down a bit, but nevermind that. Off the top of my head, an EVO magazine comparison pitted the 'unstoppable' E60 M5 against a Gallardo (non-SE) sometime last year, and the speed and dynamic superiority of the Lambo became starkly clear. The M5 was fighting its weight, but the in-depth feature revealed the Gallardo to be miles faster, and easier to drive at speed along winding roads. Only in the most ideal conditions (M5board being IT) will that sedan come remotely close. In a recent Top Gear shoot-out between the F430 and Gallardo spiders, the lambo won, and was reportedly the quicker of the two across varying conditions. In some motoring video clips on my computer, I've seen the F430 outpaced aswell. I like Ferraris' too, but their power-to-weight ratios have never translated into expected pace (look at an F355 for example). I don't know why.

    And by the way, the RS4 is faster than an M5 at Hockenheim, Nurburgring, Top Gear track and EVO handling circuit. Don't believe the hype mate.


    EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzisa6wcMNU The B6 S4 beat the E46 M3 on a bone dry track. Is the M3 more fun, yes, but even against logic (the weaknesses the S4 has compared to M3 you pointed out) and odds, the S4 makes the best of Quattro- the best Ad there is- beating a BMW M3 in a comparison that was probably not a primary concern during S4 development. And this S4 doesn't even have the latest 40/ 60 torque split!
    Last edited by Cale24; January 11th, 2007 at 20:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cale24 View Post
    I assume you are referring to the rolling start video's posted on the M5board? Granted, once both cars are rolling, in a straight line the Gallardo pulled barely a car length on the M5. This may have to do with 4-wheel drive bogging the car down a bit, but nevermind that. Off the top of my head, an EVO magazine comparison pitted the 'unstoppable' E60 M5 against a Gallardo (non-SE) sometime last year, and the speed and dynamic superiority of the Lambo became starkly clear. The M5 was fighting its weight, but the in-depth feature revealed the Gallardo to be miles faster, and easier to drive at speed along winding roads. Only in the most ideal conditions (M5board being IT) will that sedan come remotely close. In a recent Top Gear shoot-out between the F430 and Gallardo spiders, the lambo won, and was reportedly the quicker of the two across varying conditions. In some motoring video clips on my computer, I've seen the F430 outpaced aswell. I like Ferraris' too, but their power-to-weight ratios have never translated into expected pace (look at an F355 for example). I don't know why.

    And by the way, the RS4 is faster than an M5 at Hockenheim, Nurburgring, Top Gear track and EVO handling circuit. Don't believe the hype mate.
    Cale I agree with you on a number of points. Sticky I also agree with you on a number of points.

    Sticky, what i do not agree with you on are the distances you place between cars. For instance, "The SE can't catch the F430" and "it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan." This information does not hold truth in my book because I have seen, heard, read about numerous occasions where (in this case) the Gallardo "wins" against either the M5 or the F430 on a performance standpoint. It dosen't matter how bloated the Gallardo is, all aspects of a car's engineering that come into play here. Just look at what the "fat ass" RS4 is doing against other cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damienr8 View Post
    Cale I agree with you on a number of points. Sticky I also agree with you on a number of points.

    Sticky, what i do not agree with you on are the distances you place between cars. For instance, "The SE can't catch the F430" and "it has enough trouble keeping up with BMW's sedan." This information does not hold truth in my book because I have seen, heard, read about numerous occasions where (in this case) the Gallardo "wins" against either the M5 or the F430 on a performance standpoint. It dosen't matter how bloated the Gallardo is, all aspects of a car's engineering that come into play here. Just look at what the "fat ass" RS4 is doing against other cars.
    The gallardo is only bloated in comparison to the F430. It isn't a pig, but what isn't heavy in comparison to an F430 or Z06?

    I have heard stories from both sides buy I base my opinion on this: My friend's M5 consistently beating my buddies 04 gallardo (yes, it is not the SE.) A report of an SE owner geating beat by an M5, selling his SE and getting a manual M5. The dyno numbers, where the gallardo can't crack 400 wheel and the M5's putting out a good deal more at 420-440 whp depending on the dyno. Either way, the M5 v10 is more impressive and is obviously getting more power to the ground as it is much heavier and the gallardo can't beat the car, straight line of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cale24 View Post
    I assume you are referring to the rolling start video's posted on the M5board? Granted, once both cars are rolling, in a straight line the Gallardo pulled barely a car length on the M5. This may have to do with 4-wheel drive bogging the car down a bit, but nevermind that. Off the top of my head, an EVO magazine comparison pitted the 'unstoppable' E60 M5 against a Gallardo (non-SE) sometime last year, and the speed and dynamic superiority of the Lambo became starkly clear. The M5 was fighting its weight, but the in-depth feature revealed the Gallardo to be miles faster, and easier to drive at speed along winding roads. Only in the most ideal conditions (M5board being IT) will that sedan come remotely close. In a recent Top Gear shoot-out between the F430 and Gallardo spiders, the lambo won, and was reportedly the quicker of the two across varying conditions. In some motoring video clips on my computer, I've seen the F430 outpaced aswell. I like Ferraris' too, but their power-to-weight ratios have never translated into expected pace (look at an F355 for example). I don't know why.

    And by the way, the RS4 is faster than an M5 at Hockenheim, Nurburgring, Top Gear track and EVO handling circuit. Don't believe the hype mate.


    EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzisa6wcMNU The B6 S4 beat the E46 M3 on a bone dry track. Is the M3 more fun, yes, but even against logic (the weaknesses the S4 has compared to M3 you pointed out) and odds, the S4 makes the best of Quattro- the best Ad there is- beating a BMW M3 in a comparison that was probably not a primary concern during S4 development. And this S4 doesn't even have the latest 40/ 60 torque split!
    I take the M5 board videos with a grain of salt. They don't just show the M5 winning, they show it trouncing many fast cars. They also go from a roll, which obviously favors the M5.

    I don't know how we turned this into M5 vs. Gallardo but the reason they are mentioned so often is that they share the V10's. The gallardo will always beat it around a track, as it should. The straight line aspect is interesting as the gallardo really should be beating this car around a track, off the line, top end, and upside down for all intents and purposes.

    The main point from all of this is if the gallardo can't beat the M5 or M6 what makes everyone think the R8 is going to? Why does everyone think the R8 V10 will fare better than the gallardo has?

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    Registered User Damienr8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky View Post
    I take the M5 board videos with a grain of salt. They don't just show the M5 winning, they show it trouncing many fast cars. They also go from a roll, which obviously favors the M5.

    I don't know how we turned this into M5 vs. Gallardo but the reason they are mentioned so often is that they share the V10's. The gallardo will always beat it around a track, as it should. The straight line aspect is interesting as the gallardo really should be beating this car around a track, off the line, top end, and upside down for all intents and purposes.

    The main point from all of this is if the gallardo can't beat the M5 or M6 what makes everyone think the R8 is going to? Why does everyone think the R8 V10 will fare better than the gallardo has?

    I believe that in a straight line, the M5 and M6 can out accelerate (by a small margin) the Gallardo at higher speeds. Even with the SE's more HP and better gearing, the M5/6 is a bit faster. Around a track like you said sticky, is a different story. Its sad to say that this can happen, but BMW's engineering have done wonders.

    I personally do not think the R8 will trounce the M5/6 in a straight line, but I do believe around the track it will beat the M's. I think it has alot to do with the R8's engineering that came as a suprise. I garauntee once magazine gets hold of the car you will see 4 - 4.2 second 60 launches and speeds progressing past its limits. I can only imagine what the V10 R8 will do....

    But then again, there is the fact that Lambo is owned by audi and this cannot happen. But this happening in the real world. What in your opinion is this due to?

    Sorry to bring this off topic, i aologize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damienr8 View Post
    I believe that in a straight line, the M5 and M6 can out accelerate (by a small margin) the Gallardo at higher speeds. Even with the SE's more HP and better gearing, the M5/6 is a bit faster. Around a track like you said sticky, is a different story. Its sad to say that this can happen, but BMW's engineering have done wonders.

    I personally do not think the R8 will trounce the M5/6 in a straight line, but I do believe around the track it will beat the M's. I think it has alot to do with the R8's engineering that came as a suprise. I garauntee once magazine gets hold of the car you will see 4 - 4.2 second 60 launches and speeds progressing past its limits. I can only imagine what the V10 R8 will do....

    But then again, there is the fact that Lambo is owned by audi and this cannot happen. But this happening in the real world. What in your opinion is this due to?

    Sorry to bring this off topic, i aologize.
    I don't think you really brought this off topic, we are still discussing the competition and I probably brough it off topic, but whatever

    I think 0-60 won't tell the whole story. The R8 should be able to do a better 0-60 than the M cars due to the AWD. 0-60 is traction limited in rwd cars with over 500 hp.

    I think if audi wants to really take it to the competition the V8 R8 needs to be very close to the V10 gallardo. Audi can't be worrying about stepping on the gallardo's toes to make the most of this vehicle. I also think whatever motor goes in the RS6 is the one that should go in the R8.

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