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EKaru
October 8th, 2007, 01:29
http://i20.tinypic.com/alq7nr.jpg
http://i22.tinypic.com/14uclza.jpg
http://www.a5oc.com/forums/sho...t=337 (http://www.a5oc.com/forums/showthread.php/thoughts-demo-drive-337/index.html?t=337)

Audiphile
October 8th, 2007, 04:40
Interesting. The concept of Audi vs. BMW is best explained..(and I have to sit down to say this)...a BMW die-hard. Audi has been and always will be a more cultured and refined marquee. This is evident by the guy's review. Audi has a certain innate substance that BMW lacks and Mercedes-Benz cannot match. Great job Audi for having the S5 keep true to Audi heritage; yet at the same time stepping up the game! Let's see more of this. I can only imagine the RS6, the upcoming RS5 and the next generation RS4 will do.

RussianM3_dude
October 8th, 2007, 10:10
Well, the regular (non RS) Audis are pretty plain and boring especially in Europe. Dang, I once went into my local Audi delaership and ALL the cars there were black. Also, the regular models are a total bore to drive. You might as well save the money and get a VW A4 (Passat). Driving a B7 A4 and a 330??? No comparison, although the interior on the Audi is better.

Leadfoot
October 8th, 2007, 11:42
M3_dude,

I think the problem is Audi driver in general are more mature and in a lot of cases professional motorsport drivers who for one reason or another prefer the style of driving that Audi cars have. I for one have had my fill of excitement on the track and forest tracks to not need the same experience when I am carting my family about, but just because it doesn't provide the thrills of cars like the Porsche or BMW does not mean that what it provides is any less enjoyable, only it's different and in 90% of the time it's also quicker, especially away from the track.

The difference is Audi drivers have grown up. You should try it some day.;)

RussianM3_dude
October 8th, 2007, 13:03
Well, you are right. After driving a Formula car or a DTM or even an Ariel Atom, the difference in driving enjoyment between an A4 and a 3 series is like splitting the atom (or a turd). They would both be equally dreary, so you might as well drive one with a better interior. Jack Villeneuve drove a freaking Volvo estate, and many driving instructors drive boring cars.

However for us mere mortals, our only driving enjoyment comes from street legal cars and we try to maximise it as much as we can by choosing a vehicle with the better dynamics.

Leadfoot
October 8th, 2007, 13:19
However for us mere mortals, our only driving enjoyment comes from street legal cars and we try to maximise it as much as we can by choosing a vehicle with the better dynamics.

I think you are mistaking what the term 'better dynamics' means. Don't think for one moment that BMW's dynamics are any better than Audi's, entertainment I will agree with but not their ability.

RussianM3_dude
October 8th, 2007, 13:57
I don't doubt Audis have grip, but that is not where driving enjoyment is derived from. Fit Michelin PS Cups to a Lada and it will too show impressive grip.

Leadfoot
October 8th, 2007, 14:28
The term 'better dynamics' implies that it has better handling and cornering speed both of which the equivalent BMW car don't have over it's Audi counterpart. Proportionally BMW cars have wider diameter tyres than their Audi counterparts, the M3 has 265mm compared to the RS4 which has 255mm, like you said 'fit Michelin PS Cups to a Lada and it will too show impressive grip', same applies here. :hihi:

If your opinion of the term means that the chassis is more controllable to your inputs then I totally agree with this, four wheel drive systems are design to shift the power to the axle with the most grip and it does this without your input while rwd systems require you the driver to modulate the throttle to help control what grip is available and keep the car between the hedges.

Another thing different between the two systems that you might not be aware of is their cornering speeds when grip has be exceeded, in a rwd car the cornering speed will usually be in excess of 5mph slower than an awd car. In other words, powersliding is slower than 4 wheel drifting. ;)

Audiphile
October 9th, 2007, 05:18
Well, the regular (non RS) Audis are pretty plain and boring especially in Europe. Dang, I once went into my local Audi delaership and ALL the cars there were black. Also, the regular models are a total bore to drive. You might as well save the money and get a VW A4 (Passat). Driving a B7 A4 and a 330??? No comparison, although the interior on the Audi is better.

And so are the plain vanilla BMWs (all pretty much crap from the interior to exterior). The 7-Series is a poor example, if not excuse, for a luxury car in its respective class. Unrefined and poorly executed when placed next to an A8L or S-Class. No wonder the 7-Series has never beaten the A8 in any major comparison. Refinement isn't a BMW virtue. BMW should leave that to the true premium brands of Audi and Mercedes-Benz.

RussianM3_dude
October 9th, 2007, 09:29
However even a vanilla 3 series is nice to drive. Add a few options and it's great. However much lipstick you put on a B7... well only the ride gets worse.

Leadfoot
October 9th, 2007, 12:36
However even a vanilla 3 series is nice to drive. Add a few options and it's great. However much lipstick you put on a B7... well only the ride gets worse.

That is a matter of opinion.;)

RussianM3_dude
October 9th, 2007, 12:43
Well, the steering is pretty bad, very artificial, and it's very understeery and numb. Of course if that doesn't matter... Then it's not a bad choice.

Leadfoot
October 9th, 2007, 15:38
Well, the steering is pretty bad, very artificial, and it's very understeery and numb. Of course if that doesn't matter... Then it's not a bad choice.

I take it you are referring to the A4 in this statement. Well if so then lets break it down shall we, firstly steering be very artificial - agreed but then this is a problem with very elec-pump system out there and I don't feel that the 3 series is any better. Secondly you referred to ride quality in your other statement and again this was referring to the A4 I believe, well to answer this question I would like you answer mine, do you feel that the 3 series rides better when it too is fitted with stiffer suspension and bigger wheels bearing in mind that it rides on run-flat tyres.

You may feel I am clouded to Audi's faults but you seem to be suffering the same problem only it's BMW related.;)

RussianM3_dude
October 9th, 2007, 17:09
3 series steering is not electric. Z4 is... and it's very good.

Audiphile
October 9th, 2007, 17:54
I had the misfortunate of having to drive a new 3-Series in Germany for two weeks as a rental. Unless I am missing something, the car is absolutely rubbish in terms of its handling and its poor low quality executed interior. The thing broke down one week in because it was leaking oil and only had 1000 kms on it. Maybe it was a rental, but better than an A4 - not by a longshot.

RussianM3_dude
October 9th, 2007, 18:04
Well, if you compare it to an RS4. It was probably 4 cylinder with cloth seats and comfort suspension.

Leadfoot
October 9th, 2007, 23:20
3 series steering is not electric. Z4 is... and it's very good.

For a BMW fan, you aren't much of a BMW buff. All BMW 3 series use electric power steering systems.

BMW318ES (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTQw%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) BMW320iES (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTQQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) BMW325i (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTOQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) BMW330d (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTTQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html)

the except being the 335 petrol and diesel and of course the M3.

BMW335i (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTOQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) & BMW335d (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTVg%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html)

Like I said, I think you are a little clouded to BMW's abilities and faults.;)

Erik
October 9th, 2007, 23:29
Thanks...all very interesting but is there any chance we could cut down on the Audi vs. BMW bullshit?

Or do I have to help?

Leadfoot
October 9th, 2007, 23:38
No need Erik, I was only replying to M3_dude's constant criticism of Audi cars compared to their BMW counterparts and showing that there isn't really that much of a difference between them.

RussianM3_dude
October 10th, 2007, 12:17
For a BMW fan, you aren't much of a BMW buff. All BMW 3 series use electric power steering systems.

BMW318ES (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTQw%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) BMW320iES (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTQQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) BMW325i (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTOQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) BMW330d (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTTQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html)

the except being the 335 petrol and diesel and of course the M3.

BMW335i (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTOQ%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html) & BMW335d (http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications_detail/0,,1156_149349913__bs-Mw%3D%3D%40bb-M0xJ%40bm-WjNTVg%3D%3D%40sit-bmwuk,00.html)

Like I said, I think you are a little clouded to BMW's abilities and faults.;)

I think they just changed for the facelift. My 130 was hydraulic but they switched for electric after the facelift. Same for the updated 3 series. Still, the steering is better on BMs.

Leadfoot
October 10th, 2007, 16:01
I think they just changed for the facelift. My 130 was hydraulic but they switched for electric after the facelift. Same for the updated 3 series. Still, the steering is better on BMs.

Well this is to be expected as Audi cars do drive the steering wheel. But back to the S5, clearly this opinion which started the thread shows that Audi have done something right or should I say right according to this M3 owner for him to consider the S5 as a good option instead of the new M3. In a way I think Audi have hit a cord with BMW M3 owners, the new one is a whole £8K more than before and that is a lot as cash to find but in the new S5 you have the V8 engine, the style, similar performance to the out going M3 and all in a package which is no dearer. I reckon more old M3 owners will be looking at the 4rings in the future.

RussianM3_dude
October 10th, 2007, 16:24
But they will be dissapointed and go back to the propeller badge.
People who are in it for the driving experience will always end up with BMW despite the occasional detours (except if they move up in price range.)

Leadfoot
October 10th, 2007, 17:29
I have had two Beemers and the brother has had three and just ordered his fourth day there, a X5 3.0sd M/Sport which I might add is the best looking SUV currently made and miles better than the last model.

I am getting an M3 out for a weekend soon and will report an honest reflection of my opinion on the car and it's performance/quality and looks. Like I have already said, I feel this is the first M3 which will appeal to me as a true 4rings fan and it will be interesting if my opinions are correct.

Sanjuro
October 11th, 2007, 05:25
Well, the regular (non RS) Audis are pretty plain and boring especially in Europe. Dang, I once went into my local Audi delaership and ALL the cars there were black.

Is the great thing about the internet where you can learn really insightful stuff like how Audi is a bad car maker as all the cars in a showroom were black.

Sanjuro
October 11th, 2007, 07:30
Regarding the topic the comments from the M3 owner appear spot on to me - the S5 is a more relaxed device that is nicer to drive but without the feeling of being on the edge like an M3 which is more exciting.

Completely different Audiences.

RussianM3_dude
October 11th, 2007, 10:48
The new M3 does not feel "on edge". It's very comfortable.

Leadfoot
October 11th, 2007, 12:15
The new M3 does not feel "on edge". It's very comfortable.


Sounds like BMW have finally grown up and are now producing a mature sports coupe. Very Audi like of them.

RussianM3_dude
October 11th, 2007, 13:23
Mature as in... for pensioners and the country club set.

Leadfoot
October 11th, 2007, 15:12
Mature as in... for pensioners and the country club set.

:applause: Oh what a joke, ping there went my rib.;)

No seriously, the M3 will appeal to more professional people now, the kind that usually go for Porsches and dare I say it Audis and AMG Mercedes. The car has finally grown up from it's pimple years where only drug dealers and yobs seemed to drive them. And it's appeal to the rest of us is all the better for it.:D

RussianM3_dude
October 11th, 2007, 15:51
It has in fact became even less "Porsche" then before. It's now more of a CLK with good suspension. Besides, most "professionals" will bore you to death at a company soiree, I want my drug dealer's car back.

Audiphile
October 11th, 2007, 17:58
I thought rs6.com was dedicated to Audi, not a posser like BMW. I come here to discuss Audis not to feel the need to play kindergarten with some BMW fan who seems to have lost his way and found himself on the wrong blog. Can the administers of this site put an end to this back and forth childplay. If you want that then join the morons at autospies.com

RussianM3_dude
October 11th, 2007, 18:21
Hey, that's no way to speak to a fellow Audi driver.

Leadfoot
October 11th, 2007, 19:52
Regarding the topic the comments from the M3 owner appear spot on to me - the S5 is a more relaxed device that is nicer to drive but without the feeling of being on the edge like an M3 which is more exciting.

Completely different Audiences.

I most say I can't wait for when my S5 arrives, only 8~9 weeks now. :looking:

RussianM3_dude
October 11th, 2007, 20:07
What colour???

Leadfoot
October 11th, 2007, 20:24
Sprint Blue, what else.

HKS786
October 11th, 2007, 21:23
Sprint Blue, what else.

Exactly. I'm not a fan of black cars like most people. It really hides the great body detail. Other colours like Silver etc are too common. Red would be considered but Sprint Blue kills every colour IMO !

RussianM3_dude
October 11th, 2007, 23:06
Sprint Blue, what else.

Ahh! A Gentleman with exquisite taste! Tres, tres, chic!

Leadfoot
October 12th, 2007, 00:09
Ahh! A Gentleman with exquisite taste! Tres, tres, chic!

How could I be otherwise, after all I do drive an Audi.:hihi:

Erik
October 12th, 2007, 00:45
Hey, that's no way to speak to a fellow Audi driver.

In a way he, and a lot of other people, are right. And we have discussed this before so please think before you write. I know of at least one user that left RS6.com just because of you.

You do have a special sort of humor, I laugh sometimes and perhaps that's why you're still around. However I can't hear a lot of other people laughin with me.

Clever posts and comments that don't belong here won't be tolerated in the long run. Actually not in the short run either, and as I've said before my morning mood is not the best so please behave like you're above 13.

This goes for everyone and I think this is now the second time that I have to spend (=waste) my time writing things like this. Just in this thread.

Thank you for listening, but I'm sure some won't so next time we'll see some bannings and warnings perhaps?

Have fun, remember you're sitting in my sofa.

Audiphile
October 12th, 2007, 06:21
I am sorry, but my remark was not out of line. I want to come here and learn about what Audi is doing from fellow other enthusiasts that appreciate the the marquee and its heritage, and want to dicuss all things Audi. I do not come here to be put down from someone who lacks the appreciation of such a great marquee. Simple as that. Just tell him to go to a BMW forum.

RussianM3_dude
October 12th, 2007, 09:16
In a way he, and a lot of other people, are right. And we have discussed this before so please think before you write. I know of at least one user that left RS6.com just because of you.

You do have a special sort of humor, I laugh sometimes and perhaps that's why you're still around. However I can't hear a lot of other people laughin with me.

Clever posts and comments that don't belong here won't be tolerated in the long run. Actually not in the short run either, and as I've said before my morning mood is not the best so please behave like you're above 13.

This goes for everyone and I think this is now the second time that I have to spend (=waste) my time writing things like this. Just in this thread.

Thank you for listening, but I'm sure some won't so next time we'll see some bannings and warnings perhaps?

Have fun, remember you're sitting in my sofa.

We are discussing the merits of an S5 vs. an M3. I don't see myself saying anything untoward. We are discussing an S5 in an S5 section. This is a "forum" not an "Audi Appreciation Society." Without actually discussing it would be like...

"By golly your car is smashing old chap!!!"
"Aye, your car is brilliant too mate!!!!"
"I beg to differ, your car is even foxier then mine!"
"Nah, you are too modest, your's is better!"

Like two chicks comparing waist sizes in a clothes boutique.

Leadfoot
October 12th, 2007, 11:18
M3_dude,

I think what everyone is telling you is that when on a forum about Audi cars and especially a thread which is discussing a type of Audi, in this case the S5 I think the constant referring to BMW this and BMW that being better is negative and annoying, but to be honest it doesn't annoy me as I always feel able to put the merits for the Audi brand forward and prove they are the equal of any other.

Maybe you should start some thread on BMWs in the 'All-High-Performance Cars' section of this site where a new debate can be discussed. :thumb:

HKS786
October 12th, 2007, 11:31
I dont always agree with M3_dude, but this time I think I have to. At first I do admit that the Audi vs BMW thing was taking over this thread, but its calmed down now. I mean now we're getting back to the S5 and M3. Which I might add that M3_dude isnt exactly a fan of when you read his review.

Him and Leadie were simply discussing the S5 and M3. They were speaking about the maturity and target audiences. Nothing wrong there. The way I see it, there's not much else going on in this thread that's productive anyway.

Also, Audiphile (http://www.rs6.com/forum/member.php?u=3066) I dont think he was trying to put anyone down. People wont always agree on cars though. Not everyone here loves every Audi (I love most) and not everyone loves every BMW (even M3_dude doesnt like the new M3). The way I see it, if you were worried about being "off-topic" perhaps you shouldnt have participated in the Audi vs. BMW argument.

I dont think there was anything "off-topic" anyway (after the Audi vs BMW argument). We have to accept that not everyone here will love every Audi. I'm on M3post.com, but I tell people I'm disappointed with the new M3. I also update them with Audi news all the time. Noone really minds. Infact, I'm quite fair. I post pics of most new cars that might interest people; IS-F, C63, SL Black series, M3...etc...

HKS786
October 12th, 2007, 11:35
M3_dude,

I think what everyone is telling you is that when on a forum about Audi cars and especially a thread which is discussing a type of Audi, in this case the S5 I think the constant referring to BMW this and BMW that being better is negative and annoying, but to be honest it doesn't annoy me as I always feel able to put the merits for the Audi brand forward and prove they are the equal of any other.

Maybe you should start some thread on BMWs in the 'All-High-Performance Cars' section of this site where a new debate can be discussed. :thumb:

Yeah the BMW vs Audi thread should be over there. Apart from that, I see nothing wrong with discussing the S5 and M3 in here. ;)

Leadfoot
October 12th, 2007, 12:26
Yeah the BMW vs Audi thread should be over there. Apart from that, I see nothing wrong with discussing the S5 and M3 in here. ;)

Agreed as after all numerous magazines are comparing them even if they aren't really direct rivals. But I do believe that what M3_dude said about returning to the brand is true on both counts, I have had numerous other brands but always return to the Audi so it would be expected that the same be true for long term BMW/Mercedes etc owners.

Leadfoot
October 12th, 2007, 15:21
Well as an Audi driver and a soon to be S5 owner I will be able to give my opinion on the M3 Wednesday night as I getting the loan of an M3v8 sooner then I thought, though it is only for 6 hours and not a weekend is first reported, beggars can't be choosers.

Will try to up load pictures if I can (first timer for this) and will be as objective as possible. In other words if it's a dog I will say so but if it's what I think and is a viable alternative to the likes of the RS4 or S5 then again I would so.

Will keep posted.:thumb:

HKS786
October 12th, 2007, 18:06
Well as an Audi driver and a soon to be S5 owner I will be able to give my opinion on the M3 Wednesday night as I getting the loan of an M3v8 sooner then I thought, though it is only for 6 hours and not a weekend is first reported, beggars can't be choosers.

Will try to up load pictures if I can (first timer for this) and will be as objective as possible. In other words if it's a dog I will say so but if it's what I think and is a viable alternative to the likes of the RS4 or S5 then again I would so.

Will keep posted.:thumb:

Nice. Good to year. Your opinion will be valued ;)

Audiphile
October 12th, 2007, 22:25
I have no problem comparing the two. I think it is healthy and makes for a good debate. But I do not like the fanboy type of rhertoric that m3 dude's tone takes which is obvious from unrealistic comments regarding the RS4. Other than that, I do enjoy the comparisions as long they do not degrade into a fanboy type of discussion of my brand is better than your brand as displayed by M3 dude.

Leadfoot
October 12th, 2007, 22:37
Audiphile,

I suggest humouring him in much the same way as I do, you and I both know that Audi make every bit as good a car as any other brand so why get so upset by someone who is clearly posting his remarks to get a reaction. Sometimes he's comments are right on the money but mostly their are posted for the reaction, I feel ever since the RS4 hit the scene and caused a stir in beating all M3s they (BMW fans) have come on to this site more and more to start arguments.

I take that as a sign they don't like to be second fiddle, a bit like a baby throwing a tizzy fit.:hihi:

Audiphile
October 12th, 2007, 23:14
Leadfoot,

Agreed. Generally, I think his comments are humourous and I dismiss them as rants, sort of the "my stick is bigger than your stick" mentality. You hear the same propaganda and rhertoric coming from BMW itself with comments that "Audi is not a competitor to BMW" and all those out-of-touch with reality comments by BMW executives. So, like Daddy and Mommy, the kids will do the same and make baseless comments to prop up their brand. Although, BMW makes very good cars, for me, I have never understood the hype that BMW receives. Even its history is exaggerated when compared to Audi and Mercedes-Benz especially in the motor sport arena (something I follow passionately). But you are right in that in the last 7 years or so with Audi's ascendance, BMW has a lot to worry about. They are only secure in the US for now. Europe, China, and the emerging markets speak a different story.

And yes, most of their fans do tend to throw tizzies rather than respond rationally. The whole Audi is rebadged VW argument really makes me laugh even when they are presented with the facts. And don't get me started on the A8 vs. 7-Series comparisons.