Our Freedoms

[Benman]

I posted this here since "Lifestyle" is all about Everything about the things that make our lives more enjoyable... well, this is the exact opposite! Where in the world are our freedoms going?!?


My goodness? Spanking to be banned?!?

http://www.slate.com/id/2158310 (as a side note, I find spanking is already banned in one form or another in several countries already!!!).

What message does this send to my daughter?!?

http://www.newstarget.com/021490.html

And if we in the States think we're alone...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1997283,00.html

When will enough be enough? When does George Orwell's 1984 be found in the NON fiction department of the local library?!?!?

Rant over...

Ben:addict:

[Lateknight]

This is the way the world is going :nono:

They tried to ban smacking / spanking your own children in the UK recently, It failed to become a law.
I'm sure it will try to be passed again soon, now the subject is making headlines again.
How dare anybody else tell us how we can and cannot control our own kids.

Regarding the Guardian report about I.D cards - thats a pile of shit - I dont know anybody who is willing to carry an I.D card for the reasons stated!!
This, unfortunately, is the media pedalling the governments idea, giving the impression that everyone else is accepting the idea of the cards, when they are not. (thinking : well if most other people think its o.k, then it must be o.k :doh: )
These will be forged just like every other current I.D proof (driving license, passport etc).... SO WHATS THE POINT. It will make no difference at all.

Blood pressure rising....

[Benman]

...SO WHATS THE POINT. It will make no difference at all.

Blood pressure rising....

That is exactly the point my friend. The "bad" people will still be able to get their hands on whatever they want. It is the "good" people that will suffer and be controlled.

Look at gun control, there are still armed robberies in countries where guns are banned! Hmm... you'd think banning them would make a difference. :doh: No, instead, the "good" people are left defenseless, waiting for the "bobbies" to show up.

When will it end?

Ben:addict:

[gjg]

B en, you can thank ACA for majority of s&^t happeing today related to personal freedom :doh: ...

[gjg]

ACA = Ambulance Chasers Association

[Leadfoot]

That is exactly the point my friend. The "bad" people will still be able to get their hands on whatever they want. It is the "good" people that will suffer and be controlled.

Look at gun control, there are still armed robberies in countries where guns are banned! Hmm... you'd think banning them would make a difference. :doh: No, instead, the "good" people are left defenseless, waiting for the "bobbies" to show up.

When will it end?

Ben:addict:

Gun Control alas Ben this is something I totally agree with. All guns should be taken out of the public domain, yes there will still be robbers and terrorists with them but at least accidental death will be greatly reduced and the bottom line is that's what's important.

Coming from Northern Ireland, I know about terrorism and frankly our death toll is tiny in comparison to the States even taking into account it's increased population, this is solely down to the fact we have gun control, Police have them and no one else.

As an outsider I will never understand the Americans fascination with the things and their belief it's their God given right to protect their property through the use of the gun.

Guns are for shooting ranges and the movies, nothing else.:)

[Benman]

ACA = Ambulance Chasers Association:applause:

Leadie,

You know, my entire life, I believed the exact same thing as you did. But recently, I went down the path of the Libertarian (NOT to be confused with "Liberal" :D).

An outstanding book on the subject is More Guns, Less Crime by John R. Lott, Jr. He systematically debunks all the myths and garbage the media and government crams down all of our throats about how guns kill and that all guns should be banned from private use.

He sites excellent examples of how gun ownership actually reduces crime. Even here in the States, there is a huge discrepency between one State and another. Take California and Arizona. Although these States are neighbors, there is a big difference in car jackings, muggins and breaking and entering. And I'm not talking about Cali has more populace, so more crime. I'm talking about per capita.

Since Arizona has very lenient laws for concealed weapons permit, it is well known by all criminals that there is a very real chance, that the young lady said criminal is about to mug, may be "packing". Now, in Cali, this is not the case. Instead, there is a very slight chance that the young lady said criminal is about to mug has anything to defend herself (the young woman hopefully is smart enough to carry pepper spray, etc...) as concealed guns are next to impossible for the average Cali citizen to obtain (another example is Idaho and Vermont (or is it New Hampsire :D) that has some of the lowest crime rates/car-jackings of the whole Nation (and coincidentally, also has very lenient laws on concealed gun permits).

Granted, I used to think like yourself on this matter and believe that the woman did not need a gun. But I also then had the sad example of one of my good friends being robbed by two armed robbers. His family's home was broken into and they were tied up at gun point. His father was shot and left for dead. His mother and sisters were about to lose their lives, but before the robbers could "dispose" of his family, he got the family gun (sadly, his dad was not able to get the opportunity as they got to him while he was still in bed) and proceeded to kill one of the robbers and scare away to other (like all humans, even robbers value their lives and will often flee once it is known that the home owner indeed has a gun and will kill you!). The point? If he had only a knife (or pepper spray) which only works in close proximity, he'd be dead along with his loved ones. Now, had he been Rambo, and well educated in stealth attacks, a knife may have proved effective. However, only a fool brings a knife to a gun fight. Today, his entire family are now pro guns whereas only his father was before. I plan on never allowing my family to be in that situation to begin with. My wife knows how to use a gun (shotguns are best for home defense) as do I. And we both have one.

And yes, it is sad if our area is majorly impacted by violence, but the "bad" people will still get there hands on weapons even with bans...

Bottom Line: A robber has zero business in MY home. How dare the government say otherwise... :cheers:

Ben:addict: (and please check out that book).

[Audihead]

Awe, come on guys, don't you want the Government to think for you? They know better than us and it will make everything much easier. Time to swallow the Red pill.:thumb: :lovl:

[Leadfoot]

Ben, I understand why you believing everyone needs a gun, but the problem is they are easily obtainable. A large percentage of gun crime is drug related and with no gun control law everyone can get one with very little trouble including the drugies. It's a vicious circle.

I know your friend's family was saved by having a family gun but if it had have been a lot harder to obtain a gun then chances are the robbers wouldn't have had one, I bet his robbery was drug related.

My brother has been in a similar situation having been robbed at gun point, in facted our shop has been robbed twice at gun point so like your friend we have a greater understanding of the experience.

[S6LANA]

Interesting topic, especially gun control. Few years ago, my neighbor saw a dude pulling on my garage door to while we were not home. She confronted him and he left. After that, I was deadset on getting a handgun for the home.

But, after reading all of the reports of accidental deaths caused by curious children, I decided to pass. We just had a son and I know how curious I was as a child. My father had a 9mm and when he wasn't home, I decided to take it out and play with it. Luckily, the bullets weren't in it when I pulled the trigger pointing it to the floor to see if there was something in it.

Bottom line: Some kids are stupid and may get into it to play. I couldn't deal with my son killing himself or a friend. Or, I've also read instances where the parents think their child is an intruder and accidentally shot him. Terrible stuff.

Ultimately, I decided to get a crazy home alarm and do keep a lock-blade knife by my bed. If that alarm goes off, then the criminal is going to have one angry and physically capable parent bearing down on his jugular vein so he better aim well and shoot fast. I may catch one or two before I get there, but they better kill me :) And, it's very hard to hit a moving target under duress.

Plus, my security system is wired directly to my town police dept, so they are here literally within 2 minutes of the alarm.

Not saying this strategy makes more sense, but it gives me piece of mind as a parent. NJ requires guns to be separated from the bullets anyway and in a lockbox, so good luck getting to both, loading and shooting, out of a sound sleep!

To each his own though. I support people's rights to arms in their homes if they can handle the responsibility. I have also been contemplating the use of a stun gun. They are currently illegal in NJ, but I'd rather get a summons, than be dead.

[LU-RS6]

Well thought text you wrote there S6LANA, I like your conclusions and welcome your feeling of responsability. :0:

[Benman]

Leadie,

The irony is that drugies rarely use the proper channels to purchase a hand gun. Do you really think they go into a gun shop, show ID and register the weapon they're about to use to commit a crime?:confused: They use the "black" market, therefore sidestepping gun control laws. Most criminals are found guilty of having an unregistered weapon... therefore making gun "control" laws completely ridiculous. Gun control laws mostly only affect law abiding citizens.

S6LANA,

Excellent points you make and I applaud your sense of responsibility towards your children. As a father, guns must be locked up and children should never be given the combination (for husband and wife only). As for having time to get out the gun/ load it, etc... store your guns loaded (not illegal as long as they are in a State approved vault) with a touch key combination. It takes seriously @6-8 seconds to have a ready to go weapon in hand. However, as you correctly pointed out, this will not do any good to advert tragedy of a child mistaken for an intruder. Common sense still needs to prevail... :cheers:

Back on the other topic, unbelievable!!! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070202/ap_on_he_me/cervical_cancer :bigeyes:
Ben:addict:

[gjg]

gun control? damn, I lived in WV - one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. Reason? You break to someones house and it is almost certain you will die - locals aim to kill, nothing else.

Protect your property and your freedom.

Results? Safe area, no crime. Comon sense gun handling at home, as Ben pointed out and some basic precautions. :0:

[Benman]

Amen brother! ^^^^ Preach on! :applause: :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[BBGT2]

I really dont need a goverment douche bag telling me how to raise my kids. I was slapped spanked and disciplined as a child, I wasnt abused. But because of some mentally sick people out there that should be shot because they torture and beat kids for no reason but to satisfy their sick demented and twisted minds. Normal and caring parents have to be branded as such because of the mentally ill parent(s) that blame their children for their life.

Gun control, yeah Adolf Hitler liked gun control. Enuff said.
I will NOT live in a country where I will rely solely on the police to protect my family.
My father had guns in the house and none of us 3 brothers would touch them play with them without his presence and or control. And we werent some passive relaxed kids, no we were smart asses, trouble making meanies. But we had fear from my parents. I have many guns in my house(not loaded, not all of them) of course all legal and all registered to me, my 13yo daughter knows where they are and knows not to touch them, why because she was taught from when she was younger to respect them and knows they are not toys. She regulary shoots with me at a gun range or on our farm. She also does not have access to the ones that are loaded, why because kids will be kids and I will not take that risk, as kids are different now that my generations were.

The goverment should fear its people and not the other way around, we put them in office and they need to be reminded of that. I respect all those in law enforcement that respect me.

Bajo

[Benman]

Gun control, yeah Adolf Hitler liked gun control. Enuff said.


Bajo:applause: Spot on!

As for everything else, amen. :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Lateknight]

I can understand the protection of ones rights and properties when it comes to gun control.

You've got to somehow stop guns getting into the hands of psychos.
Todays massacre in Virginia is a terrible, terrible tragedy that must never happen again.

My thoughts go out to the 30+ families affected.
I cannot begin to imagine how much this will affect their lives will be from now on.

[3abdo]

You've got to somehow stop guns getting into the hands of psychos. Todays massacre in Virginia is a terrible, terrible tragedy that must never happen again.
i agree it is just sick, but there is nothing we can do about it, the thing is that if a psycho wants a gun he will get it, black market is growing and growing, and not even the authorities have control over it...

[Benman]

i agree it is just sick, but there is nothing we can do about it, the thing is that if a psycho wants a gun he will get it, black market is growing and growing, and not even the authorities have control over it...

So sad. A terrible tradgedy.

Please keep in mind, 3abdo's above quote hits the nail right on the head. More gun control will solve nothing. All more gun control would do is keep guns out of the hands of good people. Because of the "black" market (i.e. true market), people can get whatever they want, whenever they want, albeit, for a price. This bypasses all laws, fingerprinting, government data records, etc.

The sad irony is that Virginia has one of the more leanient gun laws of the 50 States. For example, even out of State residents can apply (for only $50.00 I might add) for a concealed weapons permit. That is correct, like the State of Utah, you don't even have to live there! All you need to do is attend a class, prove you won't shoot yourself, and there you go... you're carrying a conealed weapon on you. But all this does no good when schools have strict "No Guns" policies. You can carry around a concealed weapon anywhere in Virginia (with obvious exceptions of government buildings and airports) but once on campus, you must forfeit that right. Criminals on the other hand care very little for "rules". Hence, there is no "good" person anywhere on campus that has a gun, and "psycho" shooters know this. Hence, they walk on campus knowing there will be no one that can stop them until it is too late. 30 some people dead... horrible, simply horrible. Had the students had the right to bear arms as they do off campus, there would have been fantastic odds that there would have been several, perhaps even many students available with a loaded weapon who would have quickly pulled a gun and killed the shooter far before 30 some people wound up dead, that is for sure.

Why do you think that "psycho" shooters rarely walk into police stations (and for that matter, gun ranges) and start shooting? Because they are NOT psycho afterall! They know beforehand that they will not get the opportunity to make their "point" as they will very quickly be shot down. At best, they could only hope to kill one or two officers before being killed themselves. No, "psycho" shooters are not psycho at all! They know exactly what they are doing! They know it will take quite some time to be brought down before they have already wreacked havok on their fellow man.

But again, I emphasize, that further gun control laws, are not the answer. Further "banning" of guns are not the answer. To illustrate:

Peanuts (yes, peanuts) kill more than 1000 children in the US every single year due to allergic reactions! Amazing, but true! So where is the National outrage over peanut banning?!? Where is the outcry from parents who are so sick and tired of their loved ones needlessly dying from the toxins contained within the deadly peanut? Afterall, nearly no one is allergic to almonds and almonds are even more healthy for you? Problem solved! Ban peanuts, and no child will ever again die from an allergic reaction to the deadly peanut (the peanut industry may have other thoughts on this). And now we begin to see how ridiculous this reasoning is, yet peanuts kill more than 10 times on a yearly basis more children than gun violence at schools. Sad fact.

No, the answer is not banning guns, the answer is quite the opposite. In those dorms where the shooter began his rampage, where a gun was desperately NEEDED to stop the calous attacker... none was found except in the hands of a "madman" with absolutely zero regard for human life. Had the students access to a defensive weapon (i.e. gun) the shooter would have been dead right then and there. There would never have been the second tragedy of him walking clear across the entire campus to begin shooting again, this time, in a classroom!

Now, at the very least, had teachers had the right to carry a weapon, then there in the classroom, the carnage would have ended! The teacher could have ended the nightmare! But no, the gunman knew this. He knew all were helpless until the police arrived... and to everyone's dismay, far, far too late.

I'm sory for the ramble, but we need to see the logic behind gun control. We need to enforce the laws that are already in place, not add even more! We need to think clearly, the police can only do so much. They simply can not be everywhere all the time. Had the shooter known ahead of time that nearly 50% of all students on campus had a loaded gun on them and that they would be fired upon (and hence, killed) within one or two students being shot, they would not have attempted the shooting in the first place! Tragedy bypassed! And in the slim likeliness that the shooter had the nerve to attempt the rampage anyway, they would be quickly killed, with only a very small number of children sadly losing their lives vs several dozen!

I'm hoping that law makers can see things clearly.

Ben:addict:

[Leadfoot]

No words are fitting for what when on at that campus. God help the kids and their families.

But allowing more guns will only turn the US back 150 years to the times of the wild west, when you had a disagreement meant you shot the guy before he shot you. Now does that sound like the sort of thing anyone wants to see.

[Benman]

But allowing more guns will only turn the US back 150 years to the times of the wild west, when you had a disagreement meant you shot the guy before he shot you. Now does that sound like the sort of thing anyone wants to see.

Actually Leadie, the "Wild West" stories are greatly exaggerated by modern day "liberals".

An excellent read is the book The Not So Wild, Wild West: http://www.amazon.com/Not-So-Wild-West-Economics/dp/0804748543/ref=sr_1_1/103-8697305-2407807?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176827822&sr=8-1

And yes, I'd actually prefer that arrangement where criminals are prosecuted, not protected by the law (we all know about the burgular who injures himself on your property while robbing you law...:nana: :rolleyes: :nana: :rolleyes: ).

Ben:addict:

[Lateknight]

So sad. A terrible tradgedy.

Had the students had the right to bear arms as they do off campus, there would have been fantastic odds that there would have been several, perhaps even many students available with a loaded weapon who would have quickly pulled a gun and killed the shooter far before 30 some people wound up dead, that is for sure.




Ben:addict:

You cannot be serious !!

Arming students.......really??. :confused:

You would have that amount shot dead in each month. All it takes is one stressed kid to flip (an argument or jealous rage) and in the heat of the moment you can wipe out 2 or 3 as they all pull their guns out on each other....madness. I have no doubt that there would not have been the 30+ that were tragically killed yesterday. I guess, because he took his own life, knowing that other students were armed would not have stopped this looney.

You make some other interesting points though - apart from the peanut analogy one - thats a waste of a paragraph. Those sort of deaths are classed as accidents, just like being killed crossing the street. We are talking about one person killing another person with intent and having the tools readily available to do the job.
Guns will always be available from somewhere no matter how stringent gun control is. but,this just doesn't happen with the same frequency in any other civilised gun control country I know of.
I've never even seen a gun or heard one go off... ever. & I hope I don't.

Unfortunately the U.S appears to have created a gun spiral that has got out of control. When an unfortunate event like this happens you all want to arm yourselves to the teeth. More and more careless people leaving around unguarded guns (hey- its got to be ready for use...right?) to be found by people who are not smart enough to use them for the right purpose.

The right to bear arms seems to translate to the tiny minority as the right to be able to slaughter their fellow man when they feel fit.

This just makes me sad.

[Benman]

You cannot be serious !!

Arming students.......really??. :confused:

You would have that amount shot dead in each month...
I've never even seen a gun or heard one go off... ever. & I hope I don't.



Leadie & Lateknight:cheers: ,

First of all, please know I greatly respect your opinions so nothing I'm about to say is meant in a negative way...

The fact that you, by your own admission, state you've never ever heard a gun fired says it all. As gjg previously stated, he lived in Virginia (albeit West V.). Virginia as well as WV has some seriously low crime rates. This is not despite the leaniant gun laws, it is because of them. These very same students that my suggestion of allowing them to carry concealed weapons (which seems to be outrageous to you) ALREADY carry concealed weapons! They simply do not carry them on campus! So if they already carry them around on a daily basis, why are they not aready in jail for shooting someone for "road rage" on the freeway or "going postal" at the post office, at the park, movies, bank, etc? You will not be able to answer that question, because to answer it will mean you fully understand it. As for those in Utah, students are allowed to carry concealed weapons already. All one needs is a driver's license (again, not even from the same State) and clean criminal record (anyone who has any kind of misdemeanor in the last 10 years need not apply) and you have yourself a concealed permit. It is that simple. There are Tens of Thousands of colledge students, at this very moment who already are living in Utah who walk around each day with a concealed weapon. They simply must reliquish this right upon entering school grounds. If this is a fact that scares you, please do not enter Utah. The real mind bender is that private schools are allowed by the State to decide for themselves if guns are allowed on campus! Some in fact have even been towards a pro-gun policy! Shocking but true!

As for the peanut analogy, I believe you missed my point. I was not trying to say accidental deaths by peanuts are the same as guns, merely that more kids die of peanuts than by guns on a school campus, so merely "banning" peanuts would solve that tradgedy. This is a similar logic used by gun control advocates on guns. Ban guns, less crime. These people have no understanding of the situation. I believe that they too have more than likely never even heard a gun shot.

I realize that your country (the father country of the US) has some very strict gun laws. But despite the great effort by the UK, there are still armed robberies of banks and homes. You realize that no effort will stop criminals who care not a wit of the law from aquiring guns. They will, period. Remember George Harrison when robbed at knife point? The media hailed the gun laws saying George Harrison was "lucky" that UK had strict gun laws, otherwise, he may have been robbed at gun point! True, yet the media totally missed the fact that had the UK not have had such a strict no gun policy, George Harrison could have had a gun in the first place! Had the robber broke in, he would have found himself shot dead on arrival.

Again, a concealed permit does not make one a bad person. Simply because I may or may not carry a loaded weapon on my person does not make me a dangerous individual. You simply missunderstand the situation. A person who has a concealed permit has gone through the process of extensive record giving. The government has ALL you info. There is no possible way of getting away with shooting someone and then fleeing the scence. In fact, in CA, you even have to submit your serial # of the weapon you intend to use as your concealed weapon to the FBI and CIA! They have everything, all your prints, all your info, everything. This alone is a strong deterrent not to use your gun haphazardly.

Again, I greatly respect you guys as individuals and can understand that since your lack of familiarity with guns would make you anti guns, not a hard to imagine senario. I simply ask that we reflect on the true cause of crime, human nature. There will always be those that prey upon the weak. We are fools to think otherwise. We are are also fools to think that our "benevolent" governments will proctect us. Heck, half the time, they are the problem.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Leadfoot]

I think unless you live there you can never truly understand, a bit like the troubles in Northern Ireland or any other area that has it's problems.

When we over here heard figures like 30,000 people each year killed by guns in the U.S. it's a figure none of us can get our head around, but when you take in to consideration the fact that America now has over 300 million people that figure doesn't sound so big.

The problem I have is that these mass-murders in schools are happening more and more often especially when compared to the rest of the western world. Is it the amount of guns available, who know but there must be something causing it.

[3abdo]

The problem I have is that these mass-murders in schools are happening more and more often especially when compared to the rest of the western world. Is it the amount of guns available
violence in schools was and will always be high, especially in high schools, but it is not the gun to blame, if it wasn't a gun it would have been a knife, or even an old school baseball bat, i think the solution should be giving more moral classes and actualy teaching our children comon sens... schools should be less book education and more life education...

[Leadfoot]

violence in schools was and will always be high, especially in high schools, but it is not the gun to blame, if it wasn't a gun it would have been a knife, or even an old school baseball bat, i think the solution should be giving more moral classes and actualy teaching our children comon sens... schools should be less book education and more life education...

I know violence has always been in school, back in my days there where fights all the time but these involved hands and feet not guns. You say guns aren't to blame, agreed they don't fire themselves and if it wasn't guns it would have been a knife or bap or something, but the bottom line is that either of those other tools of violence wouldn't have resulted in 33 deaths. The only other thing that could cause this amount of death is a bomb, so don't say that the guns weren't to blame.

As for morality classes, in the UK schools these are been taught for the last few years.

[PeterJohn]

I'm don't have any particular interest in the subject. I think they should just make murder legal, and everyone would be much nicer toward each other. If you criminilise murder, you take away the leverage of the honorable man.

But. Here in Europe we have a lot less guns. Only really police officers, or militairy people, will have access to them. They make up, I think it was 1,5% of the population in Europe. And statistics (not surveys) have shown that something like 80% of homocides in Europe are commited by this 1,5%. The people they kill are more often than not their wives.
I'm not clear on the exact numbers. It was a long time ago since I've heard them again. But you are a few thousand times (in percentage) more likely to kill somebody if you have a gun around.

That people who handle guns for professional reasons are more likely to murder is still a factor, but overshadowed by the multiculturals. Thanks to the massive importation of multiculturals by the socialist parties of Europe. It is a sceme to buy votes with tax money, in the form of social benefits. And to keep them happy, they are also releaved of any social responsibility. Which leads to crime.

Anyway. Guns make it much easier to kill a person. With knives and such, you have to physically approach the individual. Enter the zone in with they can hurt you too, and with your own strength injure them in such a way that they die from it in a timely fashion. Guns ... point and click.

Guns require no effort and no thought. For that reason alone, they are a catalyst for murder. Just like the convenience of fastfood and snacks is a catalyst for obesity. It's a statistical fact in Europe. Not a survey, which are easily falsified, but concrete numbers of actual dead people.

Also, but this is my own theory, if you do have a gun around the house, that you don't need for your profession, it means you have considered killing somebody. Guns have no other function. Just like if you buy a coffeemaker, you have thought about making some coffee. Otherwise you wouldn't buy a coffeemaker.
It's an option you have considered, and it made sense to you, so you bought it. Perhaps it was because you thought having a gun battle with thieving multiculturals was a good idea. But most of the time, you'll end up killing a really annoying family member.

I'm glad I don't have a gun around. I would've killed myself and several other people ten times over by now. Just too easy.

[Benman]

Perhaps it was because you thought having a gun battle with thieving multiculturals was a good idea. :applause: :applause: :applause:

Awesome quote!

Ben:addict:

[Benman]

Here is an article on gun control from an Austrian Economist's perspective: http://www.mises.org/story/2562

Good read.:cheers:

Ben:addict: